U/R Fish, a dying breed?

[The Chosen One]

what are the hardest matchups for U/r now anyways? Stax would seem to be a problem with trinisphere and sphere of resistances making our cheap and efficient creatures more costly. Supression field could be a problem too, making lavamancer 2r to activate

Here are a few questions I would like comments on:

1. How many creatures should u/r run: Which creatures(obvious ones, ninja,waterfront,lavamancer,shaman)?

2. Is ninja/brainstorm a better draw engine? Should curiosity be ran? What is our optimal draw engine?

3. How many fetchlands? I run six. six fetches=better lavamancer food and better shot getting a basic land to be wasteland safe.

4. Does power really speed this up? How often do you see your recall, moxen, lotus? I have proxied them in and really I win before I draw them. Especially with chalice 0 out there.

5. How many fire/ice?

6.Annul, sb or maindeck? 3 best number?

[Spartacus210]

I run 3 ninja, as more than that seem to clog up my hand.  A teamate loves having 4 though.  It may be a matter of playstyle.

As for combo, 3 stifle MD, and 4 Fow help the most, but gorilla shaman, annul, null rod, and voidmage can all do their bit to help.  Wastelands are good against combo that doesn't run a lot of basics.  Arcane Lab SBed helps a lot.  I suppose U/W has a better game against Combo with mage, but how much combo will you realistically see at an event?  Not much.

U/R has a lot of tools to deal with welder.  Grim Lavamancer, Fire/Ice, and BEB straight out kill him.  Gorilla shaman can eat all of his food.

The real question is can this deal with Oath.  I think, with fire/ice, stifle, and MD bouncers, it can.  When I play R/G against Oath, I often win because of mana denial, U/R Fish works the same way.

Precisely.

And on Oath: I think we have more than enough to deal with it. I managed to Stifle the Oath activation for 3 turns in a row while I went to town on his life total. Even if he had counters, I had double F/I in hand, so I had more than enough time to win. I also MD 3 Annul, so this can really help with the matchup. We've got game vs. Oath

what are the hardest matchups for U/r now anyways? Stax would seem to be a problem with trinisphere and sphere of resistances making our cheap and efficient creatures more costly. Supression field could be a problem too, making lavamancer 2r to activate

Here are a few questions I would like comments on:

1. How many creatures should u/r run: Which creatures(obvious ones, ninja,waterfront,lavamancer,shaman)?

2. Is ninja/brainstorm a better draw engine? Should curiosity be ran? What is our optimal draw engine?

3. How many fetchlands? I run six. six fetches=better lavamancer food and better shot getting a basic land to be wasteland safe.

4. Does power really speed this up? How often do you see your recall, moxen, lotus? I have proxied them in and really I win before I draw them. Especially with chalice 0 out there.

5. How many fire/ice?

6.Annul, sb or maindeck? 3 best number?

1. I'll have to dig up my list to answer this, so get back to me on that (I'm supposed to be doing an English essay right now).
2.I like Ninja/Brainstorm better. Brainstorm has the obvious tech with Fetches, being able to shuffle away crap. For example, shuffling away F/I when your against Combo.
3. Once again, gotta dig up list. But 6 sounds like a good number. I currently run 5, but I think I should up that to 6, so I have no end to Mancerbait.
4. Power gives you a great tempo advantage. Being able to drop, say, a Mancer turn 1 and keep Stifle/Annul mana up is invaluable and can mean the difference between winning and losing. I feel it should be in there.
5. I use 3 MD and 1 SB. I think I might cut the SB one for something more saucy.
6. 3 MD is what I run, and I find its a great number. You almost always have one when needed.

EDIT: On our Stax matchup: it's not that good. I'm tuning for Richmond, where I heard that there is a large amount of Stax, so I pack potentially excessive hate in the board. 3 Flux and 2 RaR (soon to be 3 Flux and 3 Shattering Spree, which is a gem out of GP).

[The Chosen One]

Spartacus, I noticed on your list (in other thread) that you have no daze at all. Reasoning? I find them quite valuable.. I would say at least 2 should be in the maindeck.

[Yare]

what are the hardest matchups for U/r now anyways? Stax would seem to be a problem with trinisphere and sphere of resistances making our cheap and efficient creatures more costly. Supression field could be a problem too, making lavamancer 2r to activate

Here are a few questions I would like comments on:

1. How many creatures should u/r run: Which creatures(obvious ones, ninja,waterfront,lavamancer,shaman)?

4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Mishra's Factory
3 <something else>

0 Voidmage Prodigy
0 Waterfront Bouncer

I personally don't like waterfront bouncer.  I've tried running him, but just don't like his inability to both swing and keep big things in check.  Following similar logic, I don't like Kai because he is a mana hog, and fish wants to be swinging with factory or playing a spell instead of keeping kai active.

2. Is ninja/brainstorm a better draw engine? Should curiosity be ran? What is our optimal draw engine?

I personally like 3 Ninja, 3 Curiosity.  I feel like it gives you the most bang for your buck.  Brainstorm might be worth it, but I feel like the pure card advantage of Curiosity in such a creature heavy deck combined with the fact that fish is about quantity of cards over quality of cards makes it better than Brainstorm.  I can tell you that Standstill is NOT what you want to run, primarily because fish wants to drop Null Rod or some other 2CC spell on turn two instead of "setting up" a good play later.

3. How many fetchlands? I run six. six fetches=better lavamancer food and better shot getting a basic land to be wasteland safe.

For UR fish, 5 or 6.  For UW, 4 Flooded Strands.

4. Does power really speed this up? How often do you see your recall, moxen, lotus? I have proxied them in and really I win before I draw them. Especially with chalice 0 out there.

Mox Sapphire, Mox <other main color>, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall.  Off color moxen and colorless artifacts aren't worth it for obvious reasons.  I personally do not like Lotus because it doesn't create especially explosive starts like in many decks and also is a HUGE liability if you have Null Rod on the table and your opponent has Welder.  Library of Alexandria probably isn't worth it either, because while it will draw cards, playing spells and wasting opposing lands takes a slight priority earlier (kind of following the same reasoning as Standstill).

5. How many fire/ice?

Probably a metagame call.  I would say two is good for the unknown metagame (I have running one-of's).  For fish heavy metas or for scrubby metagames, could be pushed to 3 or even 4.  Electrolyze should also be consider for this slot, although I can honestly say that I have no idea if this is good.  My instinct says no because it costs 3, but we will see I suppose.

6.Annul, sb or maindeck? 3 best number?

I would say neither and just run Energy Flux in the sideboard alongside Echoing Truth or Shattering Spree.  Annul just never really tickled my fancy.  Daze belongs in this slot instead.

[Spartacus210]

Spartacus, I noticed on your list (in other thread) that you have no daze at all. Reasoning? I find them quite valuable.. I would say at least 2 should be in the maindeck.

Well, to be quite honest I don't know. I took inspiration from tim's list and that of DrossVamp (if anybody knows him) and cobbled together a melding of the two. I'll seroiusly consider its inclusion.

I personally don't like waterfront bouncer. I've tried running him, but just don't like his inability to both swing and keep big things in check. Following similar logic, I don't like Kai because he is a mana hog, and fish wants to be swinging with factory or playing a spell instead of keeping kai active.

In my somewhat limited testing, I've noticed the same thing. He just hasn't performed too highly. Whenever I draw him, either I'm not casting him to keep counter mana up, or he's just some dork that beats for 2. I have never used his counter ability, not even once. I can see using something else in its place.

I personally like 3 Ninja, 3 Curiosity. I feel like it gives you the most bang for your buck. Brainstorm might be worth it, but I feel like the pure card advantage of Curiosity in such a creature heavy deck combined with the fact that fish is about quantity of cards over quality of cards makes it better than Brainstorm. I can tell you that Standstill is NOT what you want to run, primarily because fish wants to drop Null Rod or some other 2CC spell on turn two instead of "setting up" a good play later.

I agree on Standstill. It is now what we want. Right now I use Brainstorm, but I'll change over to using Curiousity to see how that works out for awhile. Your points are valid.

Mox Sapphire, Mox <other main color>, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall. Off color moxen and colorless artifacts aren't worth it for obvious reasons. I personally do not like Lotus because it doesn't create especially explosive starts like in many decks and also is a HUGE liability if you have Null Rod on the table and your opponent has Welder. Library of Alexandria probably isn't worth it either, because while it will draw cards, playing spells and wasting opposing lands takes a slight priority earlier (kind of following the same reasoning as Standstill).

I've right now been using Lotus, and haven't had too many great plays with it. I really can't see how Fish can heavily capitalize with its tempo boost. Once its done, your opponent can still drop a Welder and go to town. I'll consider dropping it.

I would say neither and just run Energy Flux in the sideboard alongside Echoing Truth or Shattering Spree. Annul just never really tickled my fancy. Daze belongs in this slot instead.

As I've said before, I'm tuning specifically for Richmond. And even on MWS, there are very few matches where Annul is completely dead. There is the odd combo match, but vs. Oath, Stax, even FCG it has its uses.

[[supa_t(im)]]

1. Creatures:
I would say no less than 14, not including factories.  You want your threat density to be high enough so that you can win in a decent amount of time.
I run

4 Shaman (I'm thinking of changing, more on this later)
4 Lavamancer
3 Bouncer
3 Ninja
2 Kai (thinking of dropping, more later)

2. Draw engine:
I think the ninja + brainstorm draw/manipulation engine is the best.  While it is true that Fish cares more about quantity than quality, I've found that curiosity is lacking on a few levels.  It is best with evasive creatures, and the deck doesn't have much room for them anymore.  It also has some bad synergy with ninja, if you play curiosity on your only creature, and then want to jitsu out ninja.  It doesn't do much by itself, it requires a creature that can get through to be in play (at least ninja has a 2/2 body).  Finally, it isn't so hot with any spot/mass removal you way encounter (a lot of decks run at least bounce nowadays).  Still, the 3/3 thing with ninja/curiosity sounds interesting, I may give it another try.

3. Fetchlands
I tend to run 5, but I think 6 can work fine.

4. Power.
Absolutely needed.  It doesn't matter that the deck isn't as explosive as others, it benefits greatly from all the on color power available to it.  How many times does lotus in yard + rod on the table + welder actually happen?  This is U/R after all.  It SHOULD have consistent ways to deal with welder.  Sometimes lotus can let your monkey eat things that he would otherwise be unable to, which can mean victory.

5. Fire/Ice?
I would run 3, even in an unknown metagame.  It doesn't just serve the purpose of nuking welders (although it does it nicely), it taps fatties, or anything, and cantrips.  It can save your ass against random aggro.  And it can finish off the opponent.  Not to mention, it can easily become lavamancer food.

6. Annul?
I run 3 annul MD because it is so versatile in a highly competitive enviroment.  It can stop one of the decks worst matchups, Oath.  It helps vs Stax.  And can potentially be used against any deck with power to press the mana denial aspect.  Since it is not just for the Stax matchup, I think it deserves its spots.

In regards to Stax:
I've been thinking of dropping 2 shaman for 2 goblin vandals.  They shouldn't have a problem getting through against Stax, and can quickly turn the tide in your favor (or just stop them in their tracks).  Coupled with the other mana denial, and artifact hate, I can see him being very useful.  Haven't tested yet.

In regards to Daze:
Voidmage can be nice, but that free counter is very alluring.  I'm currently testing 2 Daze in his spot.  He is a mana hog, and it was starting to slow me down.  Hopefully the aggression of the deck isn't too weakened.

I'm not a huge fan of bouncer, but I think he is a necessary evil when Oath is one of the more heavily played decks in the format.  He also helps against colossus.  Even if he can't attack the same turn he activates, he usually only has to activate once or twice and then he can swing away.

[Yare]

Because 4 is one to much? Thet don't do something in every matchup, you know. 3 has always been the right number IMO.

No, I have to disagree.  If you are going to be running Null Rod, 4 is the right number.  It is that good.  It primarily stems from the fact that fish's strategy hinges on Null Rod so much, that an extra isn't the end of the world.  Not to mention there are counters out there.  While drawing multiple Null Rods can be bad, not drawing Null Rod is almost always bad.

P. S. This thread should be merged with the other UR fish thread if a moderator would oblige.  Thanks.

[[supa_t(im)]]

No, I have to disagree.  If you are going to be running Null Rod, 4 is the right number.  It is that good.  It primarily stems from the fact that fish's strategy hinges on Null Rod so much, that an extra isn't the end of the world.  Not to mention there are counters out there.  While drawing multiple Null Rods can be bad, not drawing Null Rod is almost always bad.

P. S. This thread should be merged with the other UR fish thread if a moderator would oblige.  Thanks.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  When the deck can run multiple gorilla shamans and goblin vandals, null rod becomes less important.  It is still very important, don't get me wrong, but U/R Fish's strategy doesn't hinge on rod.

I said this earlier, more defending shaman's inclusion (although I'm testing 2 shaman currently), but it also has to do with having 3 rod.

Mox monkey is real good.  He comes down turn 1, so he can help ninja.  He also creates actual card advantage in the deck, as opposed to null rod, which creates virtual card advantage.  4 null rods suck, they will clog your hand.  4 shamans never suck, they beat for 1.  Null rod can be good mana denial, but can also serve a different purpose, stopping slaver, belcher, trike, bus, vial, etc.  Shaman stops mana as well, but also prevents welder from doing its job.  You always want to draw a shaman, and multiples aren't bad.  You almost always want to draw a null rod, and multiples aren't great.  What if they nuke rod?  Having shaman backup to eat moxen, etc, is very helpful.

[Yare]

No, I have to disagree.  If you are going to be running Null Rod, 4 is the right number.  It is that good.  It primarily stems from the fact that fish's strategy hinges on Null Rod so much, that an extra isn't the end of the world.  Not to mention there are counters out there.  While drawing multiple Null Rods can be bad, not drawing Null Rod is almost always bad.

P. S. This thread should be merged with the other UR fish thread if a moderator would oblige.  Thanks.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  When the deck can run multiple gorilla shamans and goblin vandals, null rod becomes less important.  It is still very important, don't get me wrong, but U/R Fish's strategy doesn't hinge on rod.

I said this earlier, more defending shaman's inclusion (although I'm testing 2 shaman currently), but it also has to do with having 3 rod.

Mox monkey is real good.  He comes down turn 1, so he can help ninja.  He also creates actual card advantage in the deck, as opposed to null rod, which creates virtual card advantage.  4 null rods suck, they will clog your hand.  4 shamans never suck, they beat for 1.  Null rod can be good mana denial, but can also serve a different purpose, stopping slaver, belcher, trike, bus, vial, etc.  Shaman stops mana as well, but also prevents welder from doing its job.  You always want to draw a shaman, and multiples aren't bad.  You almost always want to draw a null rod, and multiples aren't great.  What if they nuke rod?  Having shaman backup to eat moxen, etc, is very helpful.

Fair enough I suppose, it's just I don't feel like Gorilla Shaman can deal with:

Umezawa's Jitte
Mindslaver
Pentavus
Triskelion
Power dropped the turn it's going to be used
Power played from Yawgmoth's Will

All of those things are just stuff I would rather not have to think about.  Null Rod takes a lot of the guesswork out of it.  I KNOW that Trike is not going to come down and rape my guys unless Null Rod is somehow removed.  Hence, I can play more aggressively.  Gorilla Shaman gives no such guarantee.

I'm not saying that 4 Shaman/3 Rod isn't viable, I just think this is something to consider before actually running it.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's fine with me, it's a subtle distinction at best and we don't have to drag this out.  I guess I want to emphasize just how good Null Rod is, nothing more.

[Spartacus210]

Now, to add to the discussion about Null Rod: It all depends. You could even depend it on your draw choice. Curiousity-based could possibly run 3, since they're going to drawing a higher quantity of cards.

But these are just abstractions. I've been running with 3, and haven't had problems with trying to get a Rod onto the field.

Now, to maybe bring up more discussion points, I'll post my build (which is very, very, very similar to tim's build):

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    4  Volcanic Island
    4  Mishra's Factory (4)
    4  Island

// Creatures
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    3  Ninja of the Deep Hours
    2  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    3  Waterfront Bouncer
    2  Goblin Vandal

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    3  Null Rod
    3  Fire/Ice
    3  Annul
    3  Stifle
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Time Walk
    1  Black Lotus
    2  Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 4  Chalice of the Void
SB: 2  Rushing River
SB: 3  Rack and Ruin

Now, a couple comments.

I like having bounce in the side, but do you think it would be a good idea to include some bounce spell (not Bouncer) in the main, so I have an instant answer to DSC/the like that doesn't take a turn to come online? I don't really see the harm in it. If so, which one? Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River (already in my SB)? Or something completely different?

I'll be modifying my SB, to change the RaR's to Shatteirng Spree, out of Guildpact.

Shattering Spree R
Instant
Replicate R
Destroy target artifact.

For this, I think I may cut either 1 Island or 1 Fetch for 1 Mountain, to increase my density of R. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, just so that in the off-chance I run into Waste-CoW lock or B2B, I won't be completely off red mana.

This is the only downside I see to Spree. It is multiple spells, so they can only counter one. However, each artifact requires R to kill. Right now, I would only be able to hit 4 artifacts max (or 7, w/ a Lotus). Thats why I don't think 1 Mountain would dilute my manabase too badly.

I haven't really played around w/ Vandal too much, but it seems like it could be pretty good. Almost an undercosted Shatter every turn.

So call me unoriginal. I just liked tim's build, and only made a couple changes.

[Starke of Rath]

I've now played fish for some while and with UR Fish i got really good results. I made top 16 on the Dutch Vintage Championships, Top 4 in the Eindhoven tourney in the last few months. This is the list i used:

Lands (21):
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
3x Flooded Strand
3x Island
1x Polluted Delta
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Strip Mine

Creatures (16):
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
2x Ninja of the Deep Hours
2x Gorilla Shaman
2x Waterfront Bouncer
2x Rootwater Thief

Other (23):
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Fire/Ice
4x Standstill
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Aether Vial

Sideboard(15):
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Annul
3x Hurkyl’s Recall
3x Null Rod
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast

I chose to use Chalice of the Void + Aether Vial instead of null rod.
An argument no to play chalice of the void is probably that it only stops moxen when you win the die roll and you don't to set it on 1 or 2 unless you've got an aether vial. Well aether vial adds alot to this deck against control and of course standstill. I felt it was important not to let any moxen hit play, because a welder still can do alot of damage with something like triskelion. i know i got alot to deal with that goblin, but at these moments you won't probably have a lavamancer or fire/ice

I don't play curiosity because mostly it's 1 for 2 for the opponent. When i played it i mostly drew a maximum of 2 cards and a curiosity on a hatchling doesn't feel safe.

Rootwater thief mb, i know the card doesn't do anything against workshop decks and random aggro, but it does do something against other decks. And a rootwater thief in sb feels like a weak answer game 2 to combo.

2 Ninja's with 6 1-drops, It worked for me, that's all i've got to say

Waterfront bouncer is a mb answer to darksteel colossus and a waterfront bouncer in sb isn't good enough

My sideboard is based upon workshop decks and combo/control decks. there are 3 blue blasts for the random aggro matchup and because vial mostly don't do anything against workshop, you usually board the 3 blue blasts in too

My build has won me alot, but i'm curious about your opinion

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Starke
I like your build for the most part.

Have you been having better success with 3 vials than with 4?  The way I always understood it, 4 vials were needed because you wanted to get one in your opening hand.  I have been tempted to try to run 3, but that thought was always nagging on my brain.

How has thief been working?  He always seemed like a huge mana investment to me.  I mean, theoretically he can hurt combo, but he seems too slow, they should have comboed before he comes online.  He wouldn't seem to do too much against Gifts builds, since they have like 3-4 ways of getting their win conditions.  Can't argue with success, but please expand on your experience with thief.

[Spartacus210]

@Starke: I like your build. It's pretty cool.

What are your reasons for choosing the Vial + Chalice setup over Rod? I'm really debating between the two different versions atm. I'm liking the Rod version I have right now, but my interst was piqued by your particular deck.

I see Rod in your SB. So you can go from Vial + Chalice into Rod. Is it also possible to go from Rod into Vial + Chalice? It was an idea I just thought of (I <3 transformational SB's) and I was wondering how it may work here.

[tpiro]

Has anyone thought of adding Izzet Guildmage to a fish build? It has a pretty efficient p/t for blue and red, and its pretty sick late game with brainstorm or lightning bolt. If you add white you could use it with sword to plowshares.

[Penguin]

Has anyone thought of adding Izzet Guildmage to a fish build? It has a pretty efficient p/t for blue and red, and its pretty sick late game with brainstorm or lightning bolt. If you add white you could use it with sword to plowshares.

If you were to add the Guildmage you have to find something to take out which is somewhat difficult for me as many of U/R cards are straight forward and are needed.  Yes for U a 2/2 for 2 with no drawback is not often but it is a big mana investment to be copying multiple spells and you should not be wasting mana on little combos when you can play actual threats, because they only need 1 Balance, 1 Swords, 1 Darkblast (if their smart about it) to get rid of it and then your left with nothing, when you could be playing multiple threats they have to get rid of.

And if you were to add White, you would most definately run these over Meddling Mage otherwise you would be making a very bad choice.

What im saying is personally I think that people think that the Izzet Guildmage is broken, when it very easily killed.

[The Chosen One]

@starke- with no basic land producing red, have you ever found the cost of lavamancer unpayable?

[Spartacus210]

@Izzet Guildmage: No. It doesn't belong, not enough saucy things you can do with it. Too fragile, and doesn't have a good enough effect on the game.

I hate to be selfish here, but I'd like some feedback on my build, a few posts up. I've begun buying the cards, and I'll start getting the expensive stuff this weekend, so I don't want to buy something that I will never be playing, making a huge waste of money:

// Lands
 4 Wasteland
 1 Strip Mine
 3 Flooded Strand
 3 Polluted Delta
 4 Volcanic Island
 4 Mishra's Factory (4)
 4 Island

// Creatures
 4 Grim Lavamancer
 3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
 2 Gorilla Shaman (2)
 3 Waterfront Bouncer
 2 Goblin Vandal

// Spells
 4 Force of Will
 3 Null Rod
 3 Fire/Ice
 3 Annul
 3 Stifle
 1 Ancestral Recall
 1 Mox Sapphire
 1 Mox Ruby
 1 Time Walk
 1 Black Lotus
 2 Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Energy Flux
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Rushing River
SB: 3 Rack and Ruin

Now, a couple comments.

I like having bounce in the side, but do you think it would be a good idea to include some bounce spell (not Bouncer) in the main, so I have an instant answer to DSC/the like that doesn't take a turn to come online? I don't really see the harm in it. If so, which one? Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth or Rushing River (already in my SB)? Or something completely different?

I'll be modifying my SB, to change the RaR's to Shatteirng Spree, out of Guildpact.

Shattering Spree R
Instant
Replicate R
Destroy target artifact.

For this, I think I may cut either 1 Island or 1 Fetch for 1 Mountain, to increase my density of R. I've been wanting to do this for awhile, just so that in the off-chance I run into Waste-CoW lock or B2B, I won't be completely off red mana.

This is the only downside I see to Spree. It is multiple spells, so they can only counter one. However, each artifact requires R to kill. Right now, I would only be able to hit 4 artifacts max (or 7, w/ a Lotus). Thats why I don't think 1 Mountain would dilute my manabase too badly.

I haven't really played around w/ Vandal too much, but it seems like it could be pretty good. Almost an undercosted Shatter every turn.

So call me unoriginal. I just liked tim's build, and only made a couple changes.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Well, you know probably most of what I think about the deck, since I believe we talked personally about it.

I would drop 1 blue fetch for 1 red, then drop 1 island for 1 mountain.  Basics help a lot, and with the deck relying more on red than Gay/r of old, it will help.  Stifle can only go so far.  Also, why chalice in the SB?  Other than that, I think it looks good.

Izzet guildmage I could actually see as a two of.  He provides some good beats, and his ability can be useful every now and then.  I was also thinking Dimir Guildmage, as he can draw cards with extra mana (although, with manland activations, we may never get enough mana to do so).

[Spartacus210]

Well, you know probably most of what I think about the deck, since I believe we talked personally about it.

I would drop 1 blue fetch for 1 red, then drop 1 island for 1 mountain.  Basics help a lot, and with the deck relying more on red than Gay/r of old, it will help.  Stifle can only go so far.  Also, why chalice in the SB?  Other than that, I think it looks good.

Izzet guildmage I could actually see as a two of.  He provides some good beats, and his ability can be useful every now and then.  I was also thinking Dimir Guildmage, as he can draw cards with extra mana (although, with manland activations, we may never get enough mana to do so).

Yes, I believe we did.

Seems reasonable. Does it matter which red fetch? For now I'll use Mire, since I think its less expensive.

Stifle MD has been SO awesome vs. everything. I don't think there are any matches where its completely useless. Stifle Oath triggers, manland activations, prison piece triggers even fetchlands. I love having 3 MD.

4 Chalice for combo. I'm actually contemplating on not using them. Would you think Arcane Lab to be more effective? I haven't yet gone up against combo, so I have no experience in this matter.

I think I'll wait on completely evaluating the Guildmages for this deck once the U/W comes out. And if both abilities are useful, just splash a dual of the appropiate color in. Now on the ones currently out:

U/B: His draw ability can come into play in the late game, if you end up having enough mana open. The discard ability is worthless, and not worth splashing for.
U/R: No splashing needed, and I can see his abilities coming into play sometimes. But not often. Yes copying Ancestral a few times would be fun, I don't think the situation would come up often enough. And he is a 2/2 for RR/UR/UU, which is always nice. Our cutting of Kai could make way for a good 2-power beater.

[goobafish]

After piloting this deck in a few tournaments a long time ago I decided to add in MD annuls when they where never thought of. This is by far the techiest card in fish. It is very powerfull as against almost all decks it serves a purpose. Here are some examples...
Oath = Oaths
Stax = Lots of Stuff
CS = Large Artifacts
Dragon = Animate Dead
Belcher = Belchers
TPS = Necro/Bargain

ectect

In conclusion annul is awesome and include at least 2 in the maindeck and more in the board.

[Spartacus210]

After piloting this deck in a few tournaments a long time ago I decided to add in MD annuls when they where never thought of. This is by far the techiest card in fish. It is very powerfull as against almost all decks it serves a purpose. Here are some examples...
Oath = Oaths
Stax = Lots of Stuff
CS = Large Artifacts
Dragon = Animate Dead
Belcher = Belchers
TPS = Necro/Bargain

ectect

In conclusion annul is awesome and include at least 2 in the maindeck and more in the board.

Agreed 100%.

MD Annul is one of the tools that can allow U/X fish vairants to compete in the current. It is useful against almost all decks.

[Tijnie]

After piloting this deck in a few tournaments a long time ago I decided to add in MD annuls when they where never thought of. This is by far the techiest card in fish. It is very powerfull as against almost all decks it serves a purpose. Here are some examples...
Oath = Oaths
Stax = Lots of Stuff
CS = Large Artifacts
Dragon = Animate Dead
Belcher = Belchers
TPS = Necro/Bargain

ectect

In conclusion annul is awesome and include at least 2 in the maindeck and more in the board.

Agreed 100%.

MD Annul is one of the tools that can allow U/X fish vairants to compete in the current. It is useful against almost all decks.

Disagree 90%. Annul is a good card in you play it in an vial/chalice build. It really sucks in a Rod build. Why? because it has ZERO tempo on it's own! With vials, you can drop your beats eot and keep the mana open to play other stuff like F/I, Annul, Stifle or whatever you want to play so badly. In rod builds it's key to generate tempo in another way. THAT way is tapping out every turn and keeping the pressure up as high as possible. You can't just sit there with an Annul hoping that he plays something you can counter. Annul on a Lotus might be nice but for all the moxen you should have a Rod, Shaman, Chalice or kataki down. These might see play and then in a Vial build wich is probebly WHITE since that has better synergy with the cards (looking at CC and effects).

Then saying that it might work to beat all kind of combo decks is weird to, what if they go first turn island, go. ?? Then you go and it's still game 1.. would you really sit there, fetch go too?? hell if you just answered yes then u have no idea what fish is (OR WAS) all about. Annul might help but you really HAVE to know what u're up against to keep on your own good gameplan and avoid unnecesairy tempo-loss.

just my oldskool opinion, gl

Tijnie

[The Chosen One]

If anyone is still keeping eyes on this thread. I am considering making a U/r version of TMWA. It would basically be a very fishesque deck but with more red and most likely less creatures/or more depending on where the build takes me. I will design a decklist and either post here or start a new thread

[sundering jerk]

I began to reply to this .. but...... this is just a shitty shitty deck. This deck will win nothing more than ridicule and humiliation.

but just to help you out you should have mox monkeys and blood moon.

[The Chosen One]

I began to reply to this .. but...... this is just a shitty shitty deck. This deck will win nothing more than ridicule and humiliation.

but just to help you out you should have mox monkeys and blood moon.

Umm, yeah. Every build on this page has gorilla shamans in them. Sundering jerk is obviously just that...

U/r fish is a good deck. It just needs to be metagamed properly

[[supa_t(im)]]

I began to reply to this .. but...... this is just a shitty shitty deck. This deck will win nothing more than ridicule and humiliation.

but just to help you out you should have mox monkeys and blood moon.

Awesome!  Blood Moon!!  Its not like we run manlands...oh wait...

Why don't you try contributing to the thread?  Actually, don't, you obviously know zilch about the deck.

[Spartacus210]

I'm choosing not to acknowledge the existence of sundering jerk. For he is, just that.

Now, heres the list that I've decided upon. The deck is done. I either have the cards, or their in the mail. And I like it.

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Mishra's Factory
    3  Flooded Strand
    4  Volcanic Island
    1  Bloodstained Mire
    2  Polluted Delta
    3  Island
    1  Mountain

// Creatures
    4  Grim Lavamancer
    3  Ninja of the Deep Hours
    2  Gorilla Shaman (2)
    3  Waterfront Bouncer
    2  Goblin Vandal

// Spells
    3  Null Rod
    3  Stifle
    2  Daze
    3  Annul
    3  Fire/Ice
    1  Time Walk
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Goblin Vandal
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4  Energy Flux
SB: 2  Rushing River
SB: 4  Pyrostatic Pillar

I like how it works. Once I finish it, I'll start bringing it with me to see if I can get some testing/etc done at FNM. One of the clerks at the store plays T1, so thats helpful.

[Kowal]

Wow, when did this thread get necromancied?  I didn't even notice.

Locked.  Spartacus, feel free to start a new thread with your list and some explanation to make it worth a thread.  People arguing above:  Don't pick fights on TMD.  Further abuse will result in action from the moderation staff.[/color]