Anyone used Time Walk recursion in Gifts just to force a draw on time?

[rakso]

I'm not sure if this is strategy or community material but anyway...

I've won with Tinker-Colossus using the Time Walk-Recoup-Burning Wish chain several times during the extra turns in a Game 2 or 3 after time has been called.

However, has anyone ever used the Time Walk chain just to force a draw by using up all the extra turns? (I find it bizarre that a Time Walk turn is counted as one of the extra turns.)

I placed third in the local October 30 sanctioned Type I tourney (at Mike Ongkeco's in Tondo, Manila) with Gifts.

I was paired against "Naps" Napao's aggro-control deck in the Swiss round I had to win before ID'ing into the Top 8. I won Game 1 after I was mana flooded and ended up with no business spell but Goblin Charbelcher, then realized there were only three lands left in my library (thanks to mulitple Thirst for Knowledge/discard lands) so hit him with a 15-point Belch for the win.

We went to time in Game 2, and by the third extra turn, he had enough beatdown on the table to get me down to 1 life.

During the fourth extra turn, I cast Gifts Ungiven with four more mana open, and Naps's jaw dropped when I handed him this pile:

Time Walk
Recoup
Tolarian Academy (with three or four artifacts on the table)
Black Lotus

I cast Time Walk, stole the last extra turn, and won the match due to time.

I would have tried to set up something like Pyroclasm instead of the cheesy Ryan Payabyab-style win, but I'll take what I can get!

As an aside, anyone find this unfair, or within the spirit of the rules in the Swiss?

[Ged]

I don't quite understand what you're asking. Draw is part of the game, and when it happens usually one side is in the better positon that the other. It doesn't matter if you're at 1 life or have no cards in hand. If you didn't cheat, stall or bored your opponent to death, there is nothing unfair about it.

As an aside, are you sure you didn't post that question just to show us your marvelous gift pile?

[rakso]

Haha, maybe, but I went home and started feeling guilty about it and honestly wondered how many people take advantage of Gifts' ability to recurse Time Walk just to force a draw. I mean, I was curious if it's relatively common in the more frequent American or European tourneys.

I also wonder if people have thought of changing the extra turn rule for Time walk. On the flip side, I've been in a position to win on my last extra turn by recursing Time Walk, but didn't get my extra turns because of the rules.

I thought there's no point to treating an unbounded infinite mana combo and the like differently from Time Walk recursion.

(And, as another aside, I was honestly wondering how an opponent would feel to get that kind of pile. My opponent was really nice, but I was wondering if other people got that kind of pile in past games. Gifts has been around for a while now.)

[Sagath]

I have done it twice myself in extra time. Once taking turns 3, 4 and 5 of the game. The other time, taking turns 4 and 5.

It does happen. Ive seen it happen in T8 also (but not to or from me). That would suck Unfortunatly, I dont think there is a 'fair' way to change the 5 turn rule to make this better, as allowing time walk to circumvent it would just lead to retardation for lack of a better word. It would only make gifts better, as instead of pushing for a draw, with more turns I could just tinker and win.

[rakso]

Wait... how can you force a draw with Time Walk recursion in Top 8? There's no more time after the swiss right?

[mr_rogers]

In my local non-sanctioned tournys we've eleminated that rule to make things a little more fair. Anyone else do this?

[Marton]

I've seen it done quite a few times, though usually not with gifts decks. With that said, I believe that you are right, and there should be an exception to the rule, because it feels truly like abusing the rules. Extra turns gained shouldn't count towards the 5 remaining turns. Unfortunately that wouldn't take care of the case of mindslaver 'stealing' a turn, but I am not too sure what to do of that case.

[Greenebean]

I am with mr. rogers. We both play at the same local area and are team mates, and this question actually came up yesterday (Saturday) at a match that went into extra turns. It was ruled that it did not count towards and extra turn towards the 5.

[Marton]

ok, but then, if you read my post, what do you make out of mindslaver turns ?

[rvs]

Why not just win?

[Godder]

ok, but then, if you read my post, what do you make out of mindslaver turns?

Mindslaver doesn't give extra turns as such because you can't do much yourself during that turn, even if you are taking someone else's turn.

That said, if you're playing in a tournament, the rules such as extra turns are simply part of playing in a tournament, so any card effects that allow you to manipulate those rules legally are all part of the tournament experience. If you were playing Limited, and topdecked and cast a creature on the fourth turn to chump block, say, thus avoiding lethal damage for one more turn, even if you had no chance of winning, people wouldn't accuse you of anything other than being lucky. Likewise, had either of you played slower at some point earlier in the game, even without getting into stalling issues, you may well have reached the extra turns one turn earlier, in which case it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

[mr_rogers]

ok, but then, if you read my post, what do you make out of mindslaver turns ?

Well Mindslaver doesn't really give extra turns.  It lets you control the other persons turn.  So I would count Mindslaver as one of the 5 turns.  I may even talk the TO at my local shop into counting Time Walk in the proxy events as a part of the 5 turns. 

[ELD]

IMO all the rules in magic are important.  I'd sooner play with land mulligans in a tournament than change the rulings about extra turns.

[Khahan]

I am with mr. rogers. We both play at the same local area and are team mates, and this question actually came up yesterday (Saturday) at a match that went into extra turns. It was ruled that it did not count towards and extra turn towards the 5.

Why would they not count?  Here is the actual DCI Floor rule (emphasis by me):

116.   End-of-Match Procedure
If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the active player (as defined in the Magic game rules) finishes his or her turn and five total additional turns are played. For example, time is called on player A's turn. Player A finishes his or her turn. Player B takes extra turn #1, Player A takes extra turn #2, Player B takes extra turn #3, player A takes extra turn #4, and player B takes extra turn #5.

Players take any extra turns granted to them by effects as they normally would during the course of the game, but any extra turn counts as one of the five end-of-match turns. Once five extra turns are completed, the game finishes regardless of any remaining effect-generated extra turns.

If the game finishes before the fifth turn is completed, the match is over and no new game begins.

If a judge assigned a time extension (because of a long ruling, deck check, or other reason), the end-of-match procedure does not begin until the end of the time extension.


Its right there in black and white.  Any extra turns taken by a player count towards the 5 turns.

[Marton]

playing with the old mulligan rule would result with decks running no lands, where you mulligan until you hit the perfect hand.

[JigglyPuff]

i won a match one time with me having turn 3...i played time walk...and then drew time stop off the top(like a pro) and laughed at a next turn lethal darksteel...that's right.....time stop!

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is more than done. Closed.