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Author Topic: TPS - still viable or just an inferior combo deck?  (Read 10548 times)
forests failed you
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2005, 03:59:30 am »

Actually Justin, TPS made top eight at SCG Chicago last April.  Unfortunately, I had to smash him in the first round because he was playing a terrible deck!
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2005, 07:36:39 am »

Reasoning that no TPS made top 8 in the states is in no way an argument that the deck is not viable. The same reasoning would go for Europe as it does top 8 here regularly so it is viable. The main reason i can think of it not making top 8 in the states is that there is nobody playing the deck that is capable of doing so.

As i am an experienced TPS player, the only decks i am scared of up to some level are faster combodecks. As those decks are hated more easily the further you come in a tournament the lesser is the chance of not meeting those. I agree they have more i win games, but they also have more i lose games and more hands that needs a mulligan.

Other decks do not scare me anymore as i know how to beat those. The same as JD knows how to beat people through hate with belcher i know this with TPS.

Quote
I can't think of a good reason to play it right now unless you're just better with it than you are with other decks (which doesn't make the deck good, it makes you good, it matters in a game but in this topic it's irrelevant).

Knowing how to play a deck also needs the knowledge of other decks. Knowing how your opponent needs to win and how he can sideboard actually is part of knowing how to win. Knowing this gives you a certain level of being able to play such a deck. (i am not saying 100% top, but at least to 80%) About being better with one deck than another, that is true for everybody (except a few perhaps). To really know a deck you need to be really familiar with it. So frankly, people not having played TPS a lot are a bit unexperienced to really judge about this deck. I am less equipped to judge on other decks, but i know i have won over those decks, and as such know i can beat them and do not have to fear them.

As for me, i just really like the fact i play an active deck instead of a proactive deck. I would rather play belcher or long than any drain deck for that matter.
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2005, 10:55:11 am »

Actually Justin, TPS made top eight at SCG Chicago last April.  Unfortunately, I had to smash him in the first round because he was playing a terrible deck!

Oh snap! That did happen!  I forgot about that.  I seem to recall not understanding it then either.  Well, it's still been a while since TPS made a major American T8.

Also, I love how Brian and I just constantly remind each other what happened at this one tournament like 7 months ago.  Razz
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« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2005, 05:47:09 pm »

TPS is a "one side of the ocean deck"

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« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2005, 06:19:23 pm »

I cannot say more words about this argument if not supported by results.
Today, ( a couple hours ago ), a TPS list similar to the one that I proposed here, won a 60 players' tourney here in Turin ( Italy ).

He faced:

1° Turn - Gifts - 2-0
2° Turn - Uwr Fish - 1-1
3° Turn - Gifts - 2-1
4° Turn - UW Fish - 1-1
5° Turn - MUD Monobrown - 2-0
6° Turn - 3C Control - 2-0
Quartefinals - C-Slavery - 2-0
Semifinals - Urw Fish - 2-1
Finals - Neo UB Mask - 2-0

In the end, TPS can always do great things if interpreted in the right way and if it doesn't scrub you out more than a couple of games during the entire tourney.
I would add more example, reports and results if you need to compare it to other decks, but I'm here on TMD ( and on BD.com ) since too much time to THINK that I can change your minds yet. Confused

Mountain Goats Rule? Wink

Maxx



PS.
This is the list. UB-TPS. No Junky Red Cards.
Notice the sideboard cards in it and you would start realizing how it can win both against control and combo ( aggro is a non-issue ).


4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cunning Wish
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Rebuild
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or fiction
1 Timetwister
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault

Sideboard

2 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sundering Titan
1 Gush
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Brain Freeze

Here is the link to the Report's Winner. I can translate it, if you need more game advices.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 06:29:57 pm by MaxxMatt » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2005, 04:45:24 am »

This is the list. UB-TPS. No Junky Red Cards.
Notice the sideboard cards in it and you would start realizing how it can win both against control and combo ( aggro is a non-issue ).


Sideboard

2 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sundering Titan
1 Gush
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Brain Freeze
I fail to see ANY sideboard card that would improve the Belcher or GrimLong matchup.
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« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2005, 04:40:41 pm »

@Gabe.

I'm confidant that the Belcher's matchup have been not underconsidered by the player who win with TPS.
Against decks that have good protections, TPS should perform a bit slower game plan, but against No-Reactive-Defences.decs such as Belcher, it can go for the throat and win as soon as it can.
In a single word, TPS can goldfish against Belcher, with minimum difficulties against opponent's Duresses.

When goldfishing, TPS, had a turn 2-3 winning rate, without broken hands. I killed a lot of times with TPS a full turn faster with better hands ( turn 1-2 ).

On the other hand, while TPS can goldfish against Belcher, the same winning strategy cannot be applied by Belcher because of FoWs. They should slow down in order to win.

While winning fast is highly probable with Belcher, playing aggressively with it, usually burn you out a lot of resources. After a Duress+FoW's combination, you cannot ( maybe ) be able to recover so fast.

In this combo-mirror, I don't see any Belcher advantage, excluding first turn kill without TPS' FOWs.
That situations could happen and no Sideboard cards can help you against them.

I underlined ( hopefully well ) a good series of scenarios against Belcher and TPS.
From my perspective, playing against GrimLong would be a bit toughter, expecially if I'm going to face a deck with defences similar to mine ( or at least FoWs ). GrimLong have similar path to victory compared to TPS, but a really HUGE amount of tutors, so it can recovers REALLY WELL.
On the other hand, because I usually play that deck with 4 protections ( Duress OR FoWs and never both of them ), I tend to dislike his behaviour when facing SPEEDY decks with a bit more disruptions.



IN THE COMBO MIRROR holding both Duresses and FoWs can cover and protect you almost completely.
A proactive defence to explore the opponent's hand and make the needed math in order to win, a reactive protection to cover the "opponent's inevitability" when it would happen.

For those reasons, I tend to argue that those players without specific tools against Belchers/GrimLong, interpreted that matchup at his best: you are going to face a Speedy deck with your well balanced combo decks too. You can't water down your speed or your qstrategy to add tools that, maybe,  you could not be able to resolve because of their "OPS, I WIN" hands. You have to calm down and focus that in the first two turns, the number of FoWs and Duresses would give you by themselves your entire loss or your victory.
And, judging as well as you can, your initial hand, would soon put you in the condition to feel if you are going to win or lose.
When on the draw, holding a first turn FoW with Duress can be more than half of the game.
When on the play, Duress and mana can let you slow him down a single turn trying to win the next one.

There are percentage of winning fast, that Belcher have goldfishing.
If you consider TPS a deck against which you can goldfish, you are going to valuate that sideboard as "inefficient".
if you are going to consider TPS a good combo decks, with some defences and some weapons, you should realize that it is not a goldfish at all, and the Belcher/Grim clock, should be slowed down a bit more.





@TPS vs. Other Combo Results

It seems to me to be repetitive, but being shut up when needed AND not considered enough WHEN I propose something really interesting, seemed to me funny but stupid.

In this thread.
Anyone answered me soon saying that TpS is shit.
Ok.
You can do it because you are free of thinking anything AND because I slowed down the number of winning reports made here on TMD because of "the rest of my life" Wink
Ok.

This thing, in the end, signify nothing, because TPS is doing well here ( and in Spain, France and Germany ).


For references, I can add you another good result of a TPS player in a 45 players' tourney ( 20/11/05 Mestre, Italy ).

 
this is the link for the ones who need to click or know a bit of Italian.

Swiss Results.
1° Oss Alberto aka Wolf (TPS UB) 
2° Olivi Simone (T1-Tog Without TOG)
3° Bertani Luca (3C-Oath)*
4° Slongo Davide aka Jotarokujo ($5C-$t4k$)
5° Baxter Nicholas aka PdL (TPS UB)
6° Zavan Alessio (Fish UR)
7° Pinto Antonio (Workshop Slavery)
8° Zanon Francesco aka NoseBleed (WU Tang)*
9° Larcher Mario aka Krimine (2Land Belcher)
the other decks faded out of my mind.

One TPS placed 3rd and the other dropped into the final to his friend, placing 2nd.
The 3rd one was the first seed of the swiss while the 2nd was the 5th one.

To a first superficial analyze of the metagame, it seemed to me "Control and Combo oriented", but I would add more details if needed or wanted. A lot of MW.decs and Welders too.


If only I would have continued proposing you decks and tourneys' analyzes of our Weekly main events, you would have noticed that TPS continued to perform as always really well.

Continue play a deck in a good percentage and with good players and you would see it winning again, even in America.

...but you have to play it well.... Wink





MAxxMAtt
« Last Edit: November 22, 2005, 04:50:16 pm by MaxxMatt » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2005, 08:46:48 pm »

...

On the other hand, while TPS can goldfish against Belcher, the same winning strategy cannot be applied by Belcher because of FoWs. They should slow down in order to win.

I know I'm big failure here, but I'm not seeing this logic at all. 'Slow down' means turn 2 win for Belcher. And if I thought it was my only way to win the game, why wouldn't I go for the turn 1 win? Only a 40% chance that you've got the FoW.  Confused
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« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2005, 11:43:03 pm »

...

On the other hand, while TPS can goldfish against Belcher, the same winning strategy cannot be applied by Belcher because of FoWs. They should slow down in order to win.

I know I'm big failure here, but I'm not seeing this logic at all. 'Slow down' means turn 2 win for Belcher. And if I thought it was my only way to win the game, why wouldn't I go for the turn 1 win? Only a 40% chance that you've got the FoW.  Confused

Why would I take more precautions against TPS than I would against a different deck packing Force of Will?  It would seem that TPS being able to win if I don't get moving would inspire me to attempt to win even faster.  Also, when every Force costs TPS a valuable business spell, why should I be afraid of Force of Will from TPS any more than from Slaver?

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« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2005, 12:33:47 am »

I definitely have to agree that trying to goldfish before belcher with the thought that 4 duress and 4 Force of Will will be enough to keep them from going off in the meantime does seem like a hopeless plan.  The only reasonable sideboard plan I can think of for TPS in this match up is pithing needle.  Even with that, TPS is on a seriously short clock to go off, since Belcher can and will deal with problem artifacts given a turn or two.
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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2005, 06:10:21 am »

I don-t want to appear the advocate of the devil.
TPS is a good devil but I cannot be considered an advacate at all.

On the other hand, my logic is slighty different from the one that you underlined a bit of lines above here.

In a non mulliganing scenario, both Belcher and TPS can easily keep and play those hands:

/three or four mana
/one big bomb
/two business spells.

Those hands, appear to be really different when analyzing those decks.

Belcher hands, could be Moxen, Welders, Tutors/Belcher and Duresses while TPS' one can be Land Mox Ritual, Duress, Brainstorm and hopefully FoWs.

If you see how much wise I'm, I considered examples without involving restricted  cards because they INSTANTLY give you edges that are almost unvaluable without the precise ongoing of that game situation.

Analyzing those hands, the edge that one of the two decks can acquire is INSTANTLY given by the one that start first.

Duress/FoW would almost nullify the Welder/Belcher-s pair if TPS would go first, while it would be exactly the contrary if Belcher woudl be on the play.

TPS would Duress away the Belcher and play a FoW on Welder, almost leaving it with really fewer resources.
Belcher would play Duress ( if holding one ) and possibly Welder to nullfy both Duresses and FoWs.

If Belcher would resolve two strong desruptive spells on his first turn, he would obviously win.
On the other hand, playing a Duress and passing the turn, would only exchange it with the FoW without producing a real advantage and exposing itself to the Duress assault and a possible Brainstorm into other disruptions or borken spells.
 
If he would have blindly played Welder/Belcher on his first turn, he could have faced a FoW that would have consumed some of his reaources, maybe without being able to propose other threats as soon as the opponent would pass the turn.

I'm trying to argue that playing the control role is stupid for both the decks, so they HAVE to play with Broken hands OR mximize their defences.

Analyzing the Belcher's suite, you can observe that he can only produce proactive threats without being able to interfere with opponent's ones, while TPS can produce proactive spells that can win games as much as Belcher do but at least, it have the 40% of percentage to interefere with the opponent's first turn.

Talking of percentage, some of Belchers first turn strong starts involve it resolving both Welders and Belcher.
THose game are won by themselves.
A lot of other games would consume so much the Belcher's board that isn't unusual to have a Winner on table for a couple of turns without being able to sufficiently kill with it.
This statistic mix both the games when the deck-s structure consume your resources and those games when the opponent-s distruption would stop you from doing anything.

Which deck can recover faster from this position?
Both the decks have nearly 50% of it composed by mana fonts.
I tend to assume that decks with Brainstorm, some Drawers and Tutors usually can recover faster, even if their threats are heavier to cast.
 

Talking about the FoWs argument, I assume that you have to fear the TPS' FoWs as much as the C/Slavery' ones, but with a different perspective on their inherent usage: while the first is using them ONLY to stop you from winning AND contemporarily try use the other cards to win fast, the latter could only bar itself behind FoWs trying to RECOVER in the sebsequent turn with drawer or Drains.
The difference between playing Duress\FoW and then try to win is really different from playing Duress/FOW trying to establish some sort of control. IMHO, Belcher should fear more the TPS disruption and his approach to the game, rather then the C/Slavery/ControlDecks' one.


In summary, I have to argue a billion of other things about this issue, but I tend not to be organic when expalining them, so I need more time to rearrange my thoughts.


Maxx




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