You Make the Card TMD #1 - Balancing

[SpencerForHire]

Well like it or not, "final slaver" has won.  But to be fair it needs some balance even before it is costed.  Let's see what we can do before I start the next part of the YMTCTMD.

[andrewpate]

#1 obv.

Does everyone realize that with the original wording, all you have to do is play this with a Mischievous Poltergeist or a Spatial Binding in play and you win automatically?  The card would not only be able to lie in wait for your opponent to beat you, it could combo out very early all by itself.  Letting your opponent control your turn fixes that part of it, but still has all the problems discussed in the other thread.  Gotta be #1.

[Nazdakka]

Well like it or not, "final slaver" has won.  But to be fair it needs some balance even before it is costed.  Let's see what we can do before I start the next part of the YMTCTMD.

I suggest a variation on the theme of #1, worded like this:

At the beginning of the next turn's upkeep, untap all permenants.
During the next turn, you control all actions of target opponent and that opponent controls all of your actions.

This way we can at least give it a sensible cost, even if it has a good chance of turning out as a Johnny rare which causes you to curse WoTC when you open it. The untap clause ensures that this isn't just a one-shot Mindslaver and makes the opponent have a significant role to play.

[Limbo]

At the beginning of the next turn's upkeep, untap all permenants.
During the next turn, you control all actions of target opponent and that opponent controls all of your actions.

This is approximately what I was going to suggest. But I'd prefer if it untaps only your side of the board. This gives it a lot of text in total, but then again, a lot of red weird sorceries do (like warp world or thieves auction).

So I suggest the following text:

You control target player’s next turn and the targeted player controls your next turn.
If the targeted player wins the game during that turn, instead he / she loses the game.
At the beginning of the next turn, untap all permanents you control.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, you lose the game.

I changed the lose / win trick so it won't fuck up multiplayer.

Finding it, playing it or even building a deck around it is dangerous, risky, weird and cool, so very red indeed.

[SpencerForHire]

The way limbo has it almost ensures that you can at least not tap out, I'm still not sure on the risk factor though.

[Nazdakka]

At the beginning of the next turn's upkeep, untap all permenants.
During the next turn, you control all actions of target opponent and that opponent controls all of your actions.

This is approximately what I was going to suggest. But I'd prefer if it untaps only your side of the board. This gives it a lot of text in total, but then again, a lot of red weird sorceries do (like warp world or thieves auction).

So I suggest the following text:

You control target player’s next turn and the targeted player controls your next turn.
If the targeted player wins the game during that turn, instead he / she loses the game.
At the beginning of the next turn, untap all permanents you control.
At the beginning of your next upkeep, you lose the game.

You'll need to fix this wording - the phrase 'At the beginning of the next turn, untap all permanents you control' could refer to untapping either your side or your opponent's side, depending on how you read it. That's why I went for untapping everything - I couldn't think of a sensible wording to describe what I wanted to say.

[SpencerForHire]

Make it all permanents you own.

[Bram]

This card looks like a bloody mess, wording-wise.

[SpencerForHire]

I am at a loss at this point, the popular vote has completely messed up the entire YMTC making a second YMTC a dread to think about because the first one sort of crashed and burned.  I'm open for suggestions via PM or on this thread.

[Bram]

Well, the idea is certainly interesting enough.

I just think we need to discuss this some more. Eventually someone will come up with a simple and elegant wording.

[Nibble]

You control target player’s next turn and the targeted player controls your next turn.

I don't think this works as intended. 'Your next turn' still means just that, your next turn, not you during your opponent's turn. Think of activating a Mindslaver during your opponent's turn - you don't end up controlling them during your turn, you wait until their next turn and control that. That being said, I can't think of an easy way to word this other than 'You control target player's next turn and that player controls your turn during that turn', which is pretty messy. 'that player controls (you|your actions) during that turn' is less messy, but there are currently no rules that support such a wording.

[Nazdakka]

I don't think this card is as unprintable as you think, Gimbles. The worst that can happen is that we decide it's only usable in an un- set, but I think we should be able to find a way to word this.

Anyhow, another stab at the wording of the base idea:

You control target players next turn. During that turn, that player controls you.
(During target player's next turn, you make all decisions for that player and are able to see all cards that player could see. That player does the same for your decisions and cards. Neither player loses life because of mana burn.)

Add the win/loss and untap clauses to taste. I can't think of a better way to say 'that player controls your stuff' than what I used, but I'm sure there's something better out there.

We could even go for the seriously simple approach and say:

Swap seats with target opponent during their next turn.

and then use a short essay of italiced reminder text to explain exactly what happens.

[Ephraim]

Concerning your simplified idea, Nazdakka, I seem to recall reading something at MTG.com about just such an idea that was bandied about during discussion of one of the UN sets. I've been trying to find it, although thus far I have been unsuccessful.

Edit: I found it. It wasn't in an article about Unhinged. It was in an article about condensing lengthy rules text into brief rules text with lengthy, italicized explanations, as Nazdakka suggested. I'll quote the relevant text...

    Q5) Reduce this card down to its essence using as few words as possible.

    Brain Exchange
    ?U
    Sorcery
    Gain control of all of target player's permanents. He or she gains control of all of your permanents. Exchange hands with that player. Each of you gains control of the other player's library and graveyard. You will draw and discard from them accordingly. Swap life totals. All of these effects are permanent.

    Click here for the answer.

    A5) My take:

    Brain Exchange
    ?U
    Sorcery
    Permanently exchange places with target player. (Reminder text that spells this out in boring detail.)

The essence of Brain Exchange is,well, you're doing that body swap that popular entertainment likes so much. You're becoming your opponent and he or she's becoming you. Once you get that idea across all the rest will follow. IF I'm you, of course I control all your things and use your library and graveyard and have you're life total. I'm you! The key here is conveying the top down essence that implies the card's mechanic.

[Jacob Orlove]

[card]Mirror Mirror[/card] may be what you're thinking of.

[Bram]

Nazdakka: the problem with hat wording is that if my opponent really does get to make all my calls, he also gets to make all my calls regarding his turn (the one I stole), so basically, he'd get his turn right back. This works the other way around to, creating a paradoxical situation.

Why not control his turn and allow him to control your next turn? Make it a turn-based thing.

 

[SpencerForHire]

That would also make it more random, a slave-you slave-me sort of deal.  This makes it sound slightly more red as well.

[Bram]

Yeah, and if you play it well, you don't need to worry about him slaving you. It's kinda like Final Fortune that way.

[SpencerForHire]

So does that seem like a good substitute,  I want the approval of the card creator as well as the general voting public before I proceed to the next point.

[Limbo]

So does that seem like a good substitute,  I want the approval of the card creator as well as the general voting public before I proceed to the next point.

I agree with whatever the majority agrees with. Although I somehow find the replacement effect in winning / losing interesting, I find it more important that as much people as possible agree with the card. As such, making it just switch turn control is a good solution as well.

[Bram]

You control target players next turn. That player controls your next turn.
(A player controlling his or her opponent's turn sees all cards his or her opponent could see and makes all decisions for that player. The opponent doesn't lose life because of mana burn.)

That should work. The turn you control is still technically his turn, afaik, so this would work the way I wold want it to.

[SpencerForHire]

24 Hour Clock.. And then some.