[Single Card Discussion] Chalice of the Void

[Buttons]

Chalice of the Void is one of the most powerful cards in Vintage right now, and will remain to be as long as Workshop is unrestricted.

The next section is for players who are new to Vintage, or who are new to the current metagame.  Don't read this if you know basic things about Chalice:

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Chalice of the Void
XX
Artifact
Chalice of the Void comes into play with X charge counters on it.
Whenever a player plays a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

Chalice's huge selling point is the fact that by using Mishra's Workshop (Land, Tap to Add 3 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to play artifact spells) you can put down a chalice for 1 or 2 quite easily, and have your own deck nearly immune to a Chalice set for those numbers by placing alot of artifacts in your deck at casting costs higher than 1 or 2.

Or, having Goblin Welder to get those artifacts countered, and weld them in for artifacts with different casting costs (usually Moxes), or ones that have already been in play (Like welding out a Mana Vault for a Sol Ring with Chalice for 1 out, if you really wanted to).

Chalice serves as severe disruption to your opponent in many ways.  For one, chalice for 0 on the play (that is, the first turn of the game, where you're going first, and your opponent is 'on the draw', that is, going second) is killer.  The reason for this is because you drop all your moxes, then play chalice for 0.  Your opponent then can't play his own moxes, and is stuck at (usually) 1 mana, while you're at 2 or 3, and will be at 3 or 4 next turn.

Most cards, which are spells, in Vintage have an 0-3 cc (casting cost), and therefore, Chalice is very good at hindering your opponent.  For instance, if you know you're playing against an opponent with a combo deck, you want to set Chalice at 1, because almost 50% of his deck is most liikely spells set at 1 cc, while another 30% is set at 0.  Your deck, however, is not, and so while 7-8 out of 10 of his draws are casting costs of 0, or 1, your draws are useful, as you can actually play the card.

In this cast, Chalice actually functions as a one-sided perma-time walk.  Chalice for 1 is usually the most effective at doing this, as it stops cards like Brainstorm and Ancestral Recall, as well as alot of fast-mana that would have your opponent able to play more expensive cards, like Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and Tinder Wall or Chromatic Sphere (in Belcher).

On a completely different note, Chalices should always be played low to high, never high to low, especially with 2cc and 1cc chalices.

The reason for this is because if you have a Chalice out with two counters on it, and you try to cast a Chalice with 2 mana (i.e., a potential 1 counter Chalice) your Chalice with two counters on it will COUNTER that Chalice.

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THE GRAIN (as in, this is how it's thought to best play Chalice, and you better have a really good reason for going against it)

THE GRAIN No. 1:  Chalice should be played at a casting cost where it cripples your opponent more than it does you.

EXAMPLE:  Belcher versus Ubastax.

Cards in JD's Two-Land, Non-Blue Belcher that get taken out by Chalice for 1:

4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Goblin Welder
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal

That's TWENTY FOUR CARDS.  That's nearly HALF THE DECK.

Let's see how many cards get taken out in Ubastax with Chalice for 1 out:

4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Eight.

It's a good idea for Ubastax to play Chalice for 1 against Belcher because the likelihood for Chalice for 1 to hurt Belcher more than it hurts Ubastax is THREE TIMES as great.  That is, 300%.

Even with the Green Splash that seems to be all the rage these days, the numbers only go up to TEN (we add in Crop Rotation and Fastbond).

It's still 240% more likely that Chalice for 1 will hurt Belcher more than it will hurt Ubastax, ESPECIALLY, if Ubastax gets out Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, Sol Ring, or Goblin Welder I.E., cards that either accelerate Ubastax's goal in mind before the Chalice comes down (Welder, Sol Ring), or cards that cripple what Belcher can do apart from the Chalice for 1 (Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman, umm...the rest of the deck, etc).



THE GRAIN no. 2:  Chalice should be played against key cards cc in the opponent's deck.

EXAMPLE:

Chalice for 3 should be played against a deck running Yawgmoth's Will and a single Rebuild with no Hurkyll's Recall.  Both are threats to you that need to be countered.  Yawgmoth's Will wins them the game, and Rebuild gets them to the point where they can win the game (as your road-blocks [Null Rod, Chalice for 1, Chalice for 0, Chalice for 2] are suddenly removed).

Even if your opponent has functional cards that you KNOW they have, via let's say Duress or something, but they don't have likelihood of drawing into, you should play Chalice to STOP them, not only to slow them down, which incidentally, is the grain no. 3.



THE GRAIN no. 3:  Chalice should be played not as a Speed Bump, but it should be played as a ROAD BLOCK, unless you have another Chalice in your hand.

EXAMPLE:

Chalice should NOT be played at 0 against Fish on the first turn when you are on the play.  You should save Chalice to be set at 1, or 2, as it cripples most of their deck.  Even if you somehow know that they have Mox Pearl AND Mox Sapphire in their hand, Chalice should be saved to play at Chalice for 2, because it will cripple them MORE than playing it to slow them down.

Let's play out both scenarios.

Stax:  Workshop, Mox, Mox, Chalice for 0, Sphere of Resistance, burn for 1.
Fish:  Darn, now I can't play the Mox Sapphire in my hand.  Tundra, go.

(I'm also throwing Sphere into this, just to make it more absurd how Chalice for 0 is a BAD PLAY against Fish).

Stax:  Crucible (or some other irrelevant lock piece), PLUS Welder.
Fish:  Tundra or some other land, little guy, go.

Stax:  Land, Tutor, or something else irrelevant for the turn (he didn't have an amazing starting hand).
Fish:  Land, attack with little guy, play 2cc GUY WHO IS AN ACTUAL THREAT.

Stax:  Land, Play the thing they tutored, and maybe kill the first actual threat.
Fish:  PLAY ANOTHER 2cc GUY WHO IS AN ACTUAL THREAT.

Stax:  Something irrelevant again.
Fish:  ANOTHER 2cc THREAT.

This continues, Fish player wins because Staxman played Chalice as as a speed bump, hoping he would draw into something that would finish off the Fish player instead of just doing it now.

OTHER SCENARIO:

Stax:  Workshop, Mox, Mox, Chalice for 2.  (They have a pointless sphere in their hand now).
Fish:  Land, Mox Sapphire, TWO LITTLE GUYS (because you just took out the two 2cc threats in their hand).

Stax:  Land, Crucible PLUS Welder, PLUS casting of the Sphere.
Fish:   Draws into a 2cc pointless card, land, some little guy, attack.

Stax:  Land, Tutor, play something relevant,
Fish:  Look at the 3-4 dead cards in his hand.



THE GRAIN No. 4:  An Important Chalice should NOT BE WELDED OUT unless it allows you to win the game in the same turn, UNLESS you can play the Chalice for the same number.

Also, for the exception, if the important Chalice number is at 1cc (which is all too often is), you should cast ANOTHER Chalice for 1, (as on the stack, the chalice has the casting cost of 2), and THEN Weld the Chalice out (in case you weld it, then the chalice you cast is countered).

This was the hardest aspect of playing Ubastax early on for me.  I would constantly want to weld out Chalice for 1 for a Stax, and then play two more Welders, or a Welder and a Shaman, only to see that my opponent was holding 5+ 1cc spells.



Actual Discussion:

The striking thing to me, is that with all our knowledge of how Chalice of the Void works, I see (but certainly more hear) of players playing Chalice as the wrong numbers.

For instance, in Smennen's Chicago(?) [Sorry, I forgot which one it exactly was] Report, Steve was playing Grimlong, and his opponent was playing a deck with Chalice in it.  His opponent played Chalice for 2 without having a Chalice for 1 or Chalice for 0 out.  I'm not sure what turn this was on, but we can assume it wasn't turn 1 when he was on the play which would be, probably, in the history of Vintage, the worst play ever.

So let's assume that it was on turn 2 or 3.  Maybe Smennen can help us out with this.

Chalice for 2 was a mistake because, as Steve said in his report, Chalice for 1 does ALOT to hurt him, as well as Chalice for 0, (even if the Chalice player is on the draw, Chalice for 0 hurts because the Grimlong player can't replay Lotus from his graveyard via Will, or put down any more fast mana for the remainder of the game, or until they bounce Chalice).

We can only be left to guess why the Chalice player played a Chalice for 2.  He should have played it for 1.  Even if his only source was Academy, and he had out 10 Artifacts and would take 8 burn, and was at 12 life, the correct play would have been Chalice for 1 because it takes out most of Grimlong's spells (as most of them are set at 1 cc).  The only exception to this, of course, would be if the Grimlong player mystical tutored for Hurkyll's Recall, but in this particular instance, Smennen did not do that.

My guess (as well as many others) is that the Chalice player did not have a full understanding of either the way Grimlong works, or the way Chalice works, and so he set it at a wrong number.

Another blunder that's been brought to my attention recently is the eagerness to play Chalice for 0 on the play against ANY DECK.

This is by no means a rule to Vintage, as some make it out to be. 

For instance, in the Ubastax thread, some Ubastax player played Chalice for 0 AGAINST FISH.  Fish only has (at least, most Fish builds) THREE cards in their entire deck with a casting cost of 0.  Ubastax has 6.

Even if you slam down two moxes on the play, then Chalice for 0, you have more opportunity of actually drawing into a 0 mana artifact than your opponent if he doesn't have ANY in his hand.  Moreover, Fish can't abuse fast mana like other decks, so why would you play a Chalice for 0 anyway?  Chalice for 1, or more likely 2 would be umpteen times more effective.  Chalice for 1 AND 2 would almost neutralize Fish completely:

So the real question is, if you actually can slam down two moxes on the play, why wouldn't you chalice for 1 instead of playing something else in addition to a chalice for 1?

I wouldn't even do Chalice for 0, Chalice for 1, Chalice for 2 against Fish if I could.  Like, let's say I had the opening hand of:

Chalice x 3,
Workshop,
Sol Ring,
Mox,
Mox.

I'm on the play.

I'd keep that hand like crazy.  You then proceed to go:  Chalice for 1, Chalice for 2, GO.

Next turn you can play whatever you just drew, or cast Chalice for 3.  You most likely want to hardcast crucible before you go ahead and just play Chalice for 3.

Chalice for 3 is almost exponentially better against Fish than Chalice for 0.  Fish actually runs stuff at the 3cc slot that could be harmful to you, and if you're playing against OFM, you want to take out Old Man so they can't steal your Welders.

You're eventually going to have to sac some Chalices to Stax so you can either play Welder or Crucible (crucible would be the far more likely scenario, as you would want to keep that chalice at 1 going strong) and eventually get out some kind of draw engine (whether it be in 5c, Thirst for Knowledge, or Uba, Bazaar).



The real question I have for the community is this:

If you have a pet deck, even if it's a huge archetype like Oath, Slaver, or Gifts, what Chalice number do you think is most detrimental to you?

I would really like to have a comprehensive guide to Chalice against certain decks.

I already explained how Chalice for 2 is really good against Fish, and Chalice for 1 is almost as good, while Chalice for 1 nearly wrecks Belcher, and Grimlong (while the next best thing is Chalice for 0.)

Meanwhile...

5c Stax has a ton of 1cc spells, and therefore, is much more hesitant to play Chalice at 1cc.  Why, exactly does Chang's 5c Stax have Chalice in the sideboard?  Is it for stopping combo?  Wouldn't Null Rod be a better choice, then, or is it that the 5c deck depends on Karn and Trisk to win so badly than it can't deal with Null Rod?  I'm not totally understanding why Chalice is even run in the SB, and maybe someone can help me out with that.

Gifts I've found that the best numbers to set Chalice at are (in the early game [turns one-two]) 2cc, and (in the mid game turns three-five) 3cc.

It depends on if you're playing against Brassman Gifts or Meandeck Gifts, and also what deck you're actually running (like, if you're running oath, you don't want to set it to 2cc very often).

Against Meandeck, I've found that setting it at 2cc is more beneficial than 2cc is against Brassman's build, and against Brassman's build, I've found 3cc is more effective.  Because I play against Brassman's build more, I am a HUGE fan of the 3cc Chalice.

I've posted this almost entirely from the perspective of Ubastax.  I'd be fun to also get some feedback on a deck that doesn't run workshops but runs chalices, like Oath.

Please, discuss Chalice of the Void, and the best way to use it against certain decks.  This should be a lively discussion, and I'm all for some critism of my assessment of how to use Chalice most effectively.

Thread on.

[trinisphere]

First of all great explanation of situational uses of chalice. As far as chalice in 5c staxs it would appear that it is unnecessary. Null rod would still allow one to play moxes to sac to smokestack while hindering the opponent. Chalice in oath plays a significantly different roll. It provides a way  of stopping an early tinker and slows combo up long enough to gain control of the game. oobviouslychalice for zero, one (if aabsolutelynnecessary, and three can be the only plays for oath.

[Buttons]

I don't know if I completely agree with the inclusion of Chalice in the mainboard of Oath.

SB it's fine, and I actually support that decision, as Oath needs it versus Combo, however:

The only real number that is very effective for Oath on the draw is one.  That also cuts off Brainstorms and Ancestral, as well as maybe some other stuff that I'm missing, which is a big part of their game.

Oath really doesn't have enough mana support to ramp a Chalice all the way up to 3,

So really, what I'm saying here, is I think that Chalice should be SB, and be brought in primarily on the play.  3 would suffice, and 4 wouldn't be bad, but I think that sideboard slot would be better as something else.

GWS took Chalice out and added in Mana Leak, didn't they?

I think that's a great idea, but it stands to reason:

Chalice at 2 already wrecks Oath pretty well, do they really need more 2cc cards?  I suppose the Leak can counteract the 4 mana Chalice...

But if I get

Workshop
Mox
Smokestack
Crucible
Welder
Chalice
Bazaar

on the play...

You had better believe I'm trying for that first turn Chalice for 2.  I suppose the addition of Mana Leak really makes the deck LESS dependant on FoW, but it forces Oath to conserve more mana.

Moreover, it would be REALLY bad if this was the Oath player's hand:

Mana Leak
Mana Leak
Oath of Druids
Forbidden Orchard
Black Lotus
Mox Sapphire
Ancestral Recall

See, that would be bad.  It's really a trade-off, but I don't know if Chalice is even NEEDED in Oath.  Perhaps a better SB slot would be Null Rod against combo, if that's all it's used for.  Of course, that hand wouldn't be helped all that much by Chalice instead of Leak.

Admittedly, I haven't played nearly any games of Oath against anything other than FCG or Ubastax, so really, I wouldn't know, but it seems like Null Rod would just be better.

Thanks, btw.

[Revvik]

My guess (as well as many others) is that the Chalice player did not have a full understanding of either the way Grimlong works, or the way Chalice works, and so he set it at a wrong number.

If you're referring to the Steven Menendian / Sean Bauer matchup, then the board position was as such: Menendian's only way out was 'Remove ESG, Remove ESG, tap Gemstone, Hurkyl's Recall' under a Trinisphere.  Chalice of the Void at 2 stops that play.
Worst play ever?  maybe taken completely out of context.  I think I'd prefer to leave it at this: when it comes to a card like Chalice of the Void, a card with such amazing variability and versatility, make sure you have the situation completely analyzed before setting a number.

[Imsomniac101]

Chalice at X=1 is actually a really solid play against any deck (sans Workshop decks of course, but even then you can shut off Welders, Shamans). eg every deck plays Brainstorm, Welder, Shaman, Swords to Plowshares. The only time I wouldn't set Chalice at X=1 first is if you're anticipating something far more broken. ie Oath of Druids.

[policehq]

I disagree that Oath can't play a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter. It cuts off Brainstorm, but Impulse and Thirst for Knowledge and Lim-Dul's Vault (the latter two only in some decks, just like Chalice) find the cards you need at a better rate, and cutting off enemy Brainstorms/Swords to Plowshares/etc. is good.

Then Oath also has the Chalice for 0 on the play which ruins Workshop + Mox + Chalice@2, but that is situational.

Lately I've been playing Food Chain Goblins, and I dislike Chalice@2 most, especially post-board when I've brought in Artifact Mutation.

[Liam-K]

I disagree with trying to say what you "should" set chalice at in a given matchup.  It is a far more situational card than can be explained with generalizations (as the grimlong vs trinisphere example shows).  If you try to play chalices in a vaccuum you will play them wrong.

However that doesn't mean it's terribly complicated.  Take a look at the board, and decide what you fear.  Not in terms of individual cards, but plans.  Will someone drawing into a fistful of mana ruin your day?  Set it at 0.  Is your your opponent in topdeck mode and needs gas?  1 is probably the best play here, though against CS 3 can be right.  Will thwarting drain allow you to make some great plays?  Consider setting it at 2, but if you fear only the drain in their hand and chalice 1 is a must-counter, don't give them mor free mana than they have to.

Reading your opponent not just on cards in hand but on what he wants to make his deck do is key.

[Buttons]

If you're referring to the Steven Menendian / Sean Bauer matchup, then the board position was as such: Menendian's only way out was 'Remove ESG, Remove ESG, tap Gemstone, Hurkyl's Recall' under a Trinisphere.  Chalice of the Void at 2 stops that play.
Worst play ever?  maybe taken completely out of context.  I think I'd prefer to leave it at this: when it comes to a card like Chalice of the Void, a card with such amazing variability and versatility, make sure you have the situation completely analyzed before setting a number.

1)  My post above makes it obvious that I didn't know there was a Trinisphere on the board, if this is the example in question.
2)  Steve makes is EVIDENTLY CLEAR in his report that Chalice for two was NOT the correct play.
3)  The "Worst Play Ever" comment would have been if the dude playing the Chalice would have done Chalice for 2 on the play, first turn, against what he knew was Grimlong.  That WOULD HAVE BEEN the worst play ever, hence I was saying that he probably didn't do that.
4)  Look at "The Grain No. 2".  That's "making sure the situation is completely analyzed."

Chalice at X=1 is actually a really solid play against any deck (sans Workshop decks of course, but even then you can shut off Welders, Shamans). eg every deck plays Brainstorm, Welder, Shaman, Swords to Plowshares. The only time I wouldn't set Chalice at X=1 first is if you're anticipating something far more broken. ie Oath of Druids.

I said that Chalice for 1 is a great play for Oath.  I actually said it was their only real option on the draw.  Inferring that on the play, Chalice for 0 would be the other option.

I disagree with trying to say what you "should" set chalice at in a given matchup.  It is a far more situational card than can be explained with generalizations (as the grimlong vs trinisphere example shows).  If you try to play chalices in a vaccuum you will play them wrong.

I never said that you should set Chalice at 1 when you're fearing Hurkyll's recall, or that Chalice is a vacuum card.  Against some decks, it might as well be, like Belcher, but regardless, I never said any of that.

The Grimlong vs. Trinisphere example isn't the one I was talking about, and I didn't say anything about a trinisphere on the board earlier.  If there is no Trinisphere, Null Rod, Chalice, or any other thing blocking Grimlong's chance of going off on the board, Chalice = 2 is ALWAYS the wrong play - which Smennen said in his report.

However that doesn't mean it's terribly complicated.  Take a look at the board, and decide what you fear.  Not in terms of individual cards, but plans.  Will someone drawing into a fistful of mana ruin your day?  Set it at 0. 

They don't ruin your day with mana.  This is what I was talking about with setting it to 0 which is way too common.  They ruin your day with putting the mana into things.  Chalice can be used as a speed bump, but it's more effective as a road block.

Now, before you just go and disagree with me just because I'm disagreeing with you, look at that sentence:

Chalice can be used as a speed bump, but it's more effective as a road block.

Can you really disagree with that?  I mean, is Chalice for 3 against Grimlong more, or less effective than Chalice for 0 when they're only running a single Rebuild?  If you said, "Chalice for 3 is more effective than Chalice for 0 against Grimlong when they are only running a single Rebuild," you would be correct.

That's all I'm saying.  I'm not throwing any other cards into the mix.  Chalice wants to be a Road Block.

Reading your opponent not just on cards in hand but on what he wants to make his deck do is key.

See THE GRAIN No. 2.

[Marton]

Stax:  Workshop, Mox, Mox, Chalice for 0, Sphere of Resistance, burn for 1.
Fish:  Darn, now I can't play the Mox Sapphire in my hand.  Tundra, go.

considering that fish was on the draw, and thus, did not have a possible daze available (no lands in play), this example is subpar. In the example, sphere of resistance was played using workshop mana, which is odd considering that you could have used your moxes to play it, or play the chalice for 0 after the sphere of resistance (which isn't a great play since you burn for 1 if your sphere of resistance gets countered). I could understand if you bluff a reb or something, but it just feels subpar.

[Imsomniac101]

Quote from: Imsomniac101 on Yesterday at 03:42:01 PM
Chalice at X=1 is actually a really solid play against any deck (sans Workshop decks of course, but even then you can shut off Welders, Shamans). eg every deck plays Brainstorm, Welder, Shaman, Swords to Plowshares. The only time I wouldn't set Chalice at X=1 first is if you're anticipating something far more broken. ie Oath of Druids.


I said that Chalice for 1 is a great play for Oath.  I actually said it was their only real option on the draw.  Inferring that on the play, Chalice for 0 would be the other option.

I think you misunderstood me. I said that Chalice set at 1 is great against any deck, assuming that you're the one playing a workshop deck.

[Smmenen]

Buttons, I meant that chalice 2 was wrong if you didn't know that my primary out was Hurkyl's.  There is almost nothing in Grim Long that costs two except Hurkyls.  So presumptively, Chalice 0 and 1 are the correct plays first, and then Chalice - sine that stops draw7s and Will - with Will I could at least throw stuff into Chalice and then Desire.  But, if I'm locked down pretty bad, then the smart play is Chalice 2 to stop Hurks. 

[Buttons]

Stax:  Workshop, Mox, Mox, Chalice for 0, Sphere of Resistance, burn for 1.
Fish:  Darn, now I can't play the Mox Sapphire in my hand.  Tundra, go.

considering that fish was on the draw, and thus, did not have a possible daze available (no lands in play), this example is subpar. In the example, sphere of resistance was played using workshop mana, which is odd considering that you could have used your moxes to play it, or play the chalice for 0 after the sphere of resistance (which isn't a great play since you burn for 1 if your sphere of resistance gets countered). I could understand if you bluff a reb or something, but it just feels subpar.

Yeah, I forgot I put two Moxes up there.  Thanks.

Buttons, I meant that chalice 2 was wrong if you didn't know that my primary out was Hurkyl's.  There is almost nothing in Grim Long that costs two except Hurkyls.  So presumptively, Chalice 0 and 1 are the correct plays first, and then Chalice - sine that stops draw7s and Will - with Will I could at least throw stuff into Chalice and then Desire.  But, if I'm locked down pretty bad, then the smart play is Chalice 2 to stop Hurks. 

Right - only in your tournament report you just said that the guy played Chalice for 2, to which you were like, "What?"

And I totally agree with everything you've said.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Chalice 3 also stops Rebuild, which is arguably more dangerous.

[forests failed you]

Chalice of the Void is 'unfun,' and 'unfair.' clearly it needs to be restricted.

[Fall-Titan]

I disagree with the restriction of chalice.  It is not a game ending card until the third or possibly fourth one hits the table and even then, a good player will have some out against it. Trinisphere was restricted because 4 of them in a deck means you are 4 times more likely to have one in your opening hand which means you are four times more likely to end the game on turn 1. Between rebuild, hurkyls recall, chain of vapor, mox monkey, engineered explosives, powder keg, deed, the seventy eight thousand other ways to destroy an artifact with varied casting costs, It should not be that difficult to play around chalice. A good player knows  the weaknesses of his deck and if one of those is chalice of the void set at a certain number, they will play at least 2 cards or 2 ways of getting cards that can deal with  the problem at seperate casting costs. Not to mention unlike Trinsphere which is a no brainer drop on turn 1, chalice is very hadr to drop on the play in the first game because of the lack of knowledge of the opponets deck. This usually gives the opponet at least 1 turn (most likely around 3) to find a way to win, get threats on the board, or find some answer to chalice.

[Imsomniac101]

Chalice of the Void is 'unfun,' and 'unfair.' clearly it needs to be restricted.

And we all say Amen.

Remember how Trini was restricted because it placed too many constraints on deck building? People were forced to maindeck Artifact hate or run a ton of basics. I believe the same goes for Chalice.

On the play, if you are playing Workshop (take note of this Buttons), the correct play is almost always X=1.

[Buttons]

I don't think Chalice should be restricted.

Trinisphere was restricted because it really did make gameplay unfun, although not necessarily unfair.

The primarily rule for restricting something is that if it is a key component in an absolutely dominant deck.  Stax does not dominate so badly that Chalice should be restricted, even though Stax is currently dominating the meta.

Gifts top8's just as much as Stax does, but because Stax has a favorable matchup against Gifts, Stax wins more tournaments.

The meta right now is very, very diverse.  Probably more diverse than it has ever been.  I actually was thinking about starting a discussion thread on how great it is in type 1 right now.  We're living in the Golden Age.

No archetype is dominating (although someone could make an argument for Stax), and we have almost every imaginible archetype doing well.

Someone posted saying how there were NINETEEN viable, popular decks in type 1, and decks like FCG and Gifts-Oath weren't even in that list.

I mean, we have SIX TOP TIER DECKS.  Think about that.

Gifts
Oath
Slaver
Belcher
Grimlong
Stax  (I'm not even separating 5c and Uba, but you could make an argument for Uba and 5c to be different and Grimlong to not be in here)

That's crazy.  What other format has SIX DECKS that are currently doing very well, and can each beat/get beaten by/each other.

I might be looking for an argument here, but if you actually take the statistics of those decks, Ubastax probably actually does the best, but only because it beats Belcher.

If I didn't play Ubastax right now, I would be playing Belcher, because if you know the deck well enough (Like JD does, holy hell), you're able to just mutilate people with it.

The guy didn't lose ANY GAME in Chicago, except against Ubastax, his WORST matchup.

I am convinced through playtesting and with JD's results, that if a good Belcher player is at a big tournament, Belcher will always be the best deck in a tournament unless Ubastax is there, because Ubastax has Chalice and Null Rod.  That's it.

Chalice helps take out decks like Belcher.

If Chalice were restricted, Belcher would run rampant.  Chalice is not a problem.

[forests failed you]

That is way off.

Chalice does not keep combo in check.  Mana Drain does.

[jpmeyer]

Ugh.  The restriction comment clearly sarcastic.  No more restriction threadjacking.

[forests failed you]

Sorry JP,  I'm done being an ass.

[vroman]

chalice is the reason I dont mind going 2nd against belcher because the odds of their turn 1 kills are actually rather small, and they are likely to land grant to get some mana, which reveals their hand for the ideal chalice setting. plus makes wasteland more valuable on the draw.
chalice @ 1 is my preffered option, lacking that knowledge. but watch out for my new anti-aggro tech, that splashes against belcher: glacial chasm.

[Moxlotus]

Chalice can and is played in Oath.  It is neither better nor worse than Leak in a vacuum-it is metagaming.  Our list is no definitive list for Oath.  Hell, we've played a different list at every tournament we play.  I consider it a definitive strategy for oath.  Cards counts change, but the strategy stays the same.  Anyways, back on topic.

Playing Oath with Chalice, the play should always be set it at 0 ont he play game 1.  It should always be set it at 0 on the play game 2 against everything that isn't fish or goblins or something.  It is there as a speed bump to slow your opponent down a turn or maybe even 2 so you can have more time to find Oath.  Against fish or Stax (only if you have Oath out already and just found an Orchard for example), playing it for 1 can be a key play for cutting off StP.  If you play Chalice for 2 with Oath...99.2% of the time I'm gonna call you a fucking retard.

Against Oath:  set it at 2.  Set the next chalice at 1.  If you set it at 2 you make them look for their 4 oxidizes, however it shouldn't be that hard with 4 oxidize, 4 BS, vamp, Imp seal, mystical, and/or tops.  However, you still make them find 2 cards to beat you-the oxidize and the oath.  If you put it at 1 then all they have to do is find Oath and can skip the other part.  Sure you cut off BS and a few tutors, but Impulses and Demonic are still out there. 

[JDawg13]

Against Oath:  set it at 2.  Set the next chalice at 1. 

Sorry, but this doesn't work.  Chalice @ 2 counters your Chalice @ 1.  This would obviously be the play if it worked, but unfortunately it does not.

[Buttons]

Sorry, but this doesn't work.  Chalice @ 2 counters your Chalice @ 1.  This would obviously be the play if it worked, but unfortunately it does not.

It's true.  If you have to pick one, 2 is definitely the one you pick, though.

I have to rely on Duplicant and Chasm[or]Maze then.  Usually the play is to try to get out an early Chalice for 2, then Welder, Crucible, and cards that allow you to slowly beat down Oath until they die, because they can't counter a welded in Duplicant, or keep killing your important lands.

Oath is just hard to beat.  Chalice helps like crazy, though.

[Moxlotus]

Against Oath:  set it at 2.  Set the next chalice at 1. 

Sorry, but this doesn't work.  Chalice @ 2 counters your Chalice @ 1.  This would obviously be the play if it worked, but unfortunately it does not.

Wow, I suck.  Set it at 2.

[Liam-K]

However that doesn't mean it's terribly complicated.  Take a look at the board, and decide what you fear.  Not in terms of individual cards, but plans.  Will someone drawing into a fistful of mana ruin your day?  Set it at 0. 

They don't ruin your day with mana.  This is what I was talking about with setting it to 0 which is way too common.  They ruin your day with putting the mana into things.  Chalice can be used as a speed bump, but it's more effective as a road block.

Now, before you just go and disagree with me just because I'm disagreeing with you, look at that sentence:

Chalice can be used as a speed bump, but it's more effective as a road block.

Can you really disagree with that?  I mean, is Chalice for 3 against Grimlong more, or less effective than Chalice for 0 when they're only running a single Rebuild?  If you said, "Chalice for 3 is more effective than Chalice for 0 against Grimlong when they are only running a single Rebuild," you would be correct.

That's all I'm saying.  I'm not throwing any other cards into the mix.  Chalice wants to be a Road Block.

This is what I mean about analysing the card in a vaccuum.  Sometimes chalice 0 is the most effective "road block" because your opponent desperately needs to develope his mana base.  Someone having a ton of mana CAN be more of a problem than any individual spell they play.  Card advantage only matters when they can play their cards.

[Buttons]

Okay.