Old 4th Edition Rules

[Nefarias]

So I've been playing a bit a Shandalar recently, and I just have a couple of old school rules questions. I have the "newer" version, with the Dark and Mana Crypt and such.

1. Is there anyway for me to block a 2/2 with a Mishra's Factory and have his die and not mine? It seems I either have to trade, or tap my guy to a 3/3 so neither dies.

2. Can a Trike trade with a 4/4 and still ping for three?

3. If a Su-Chi dies in combat (not first strike), can I syphon the mana into a Factory or something?  I think I may have figured this one out, but I'm not sure. I think I just have to reset the stop markers, but I haven't tested this theory yet.

Thanks.

[LordHomerCat]

There's no way to "stack damage" in that game, AFAIK, so you either trade or fog with the factory, and either trade or ping with Trike.  At least, I was never able to make it do anything different.

[Evenpence]

I'm actually an expert on 4th edition rules, because I began playing about a year prior to that time, and was well acquainted with the rules at that point.

To answer your questions:


1. Is there anyway for me to block a 2/2 with a Mishra's Factory and have his die and not mine? It seems I either have to trade, or tap my guy to a 3/3 so neither dies.

Yeah, you can do that.  All you do is declare blocking, and then before "DAMAGE IS ASSIGNED" tap your factory to make him 3/3, and he'll still do damage.

2. Can a Trike trade with a 4/4 and still ping for three?

No.  You can't stack damage in 4th edition rules, then use abilities.  I remember hearing that they were changing the rules so that you could trade and still use a sacrifice ability on a card.  I thought it was ludicrous.

Personally, I like the 4th edition rules ALOT more on this issue because it's alot more logical.  However, it's easier from a rules perspective to be able to 'stack damage.'

3. If a Su-Chi dies in combat (not first strike), can I syphon the mana into a Factory or something?  I think I may have figured this one out, but I'm not sure. I think I just have to reset the stop markers, but I haven't tested this theory yet.

Yeah.  In 4th edition rules, you have one big main phase, not two.  Plus, mana lasts until the end of the turn.  It's not step-oriented.  You don't take mana burn if you tap out at the beginning of your upkeep and do nothing until your discard phase, where you spend it all on an instant.

Read the card "Mana Short" from 4th edition to get a good idea of how mana works in that time frame of rules.  You also can't answer interrupts with instants, so the only way for you to really get around Mana Short was to play an interrupt, like Red Elemental Blast, or Counterspell, or any of the various interrupts.  Mana Short actually empties your mana pool so you don't have it until the end of the turn.

You also don't die if you take lethal damage during your upkeep.  Say you're at 1, you get lightning bolted to the face during your upkeep.  You draw a card, it's healing salve.  You cast healing salve, you end your turn.  You're fine.

EDIT:  Oh, also, you can play spells during the untap phase.  There's tons of rules that we don't have anymore.

[Komatteru]

You don't take mana burn if you tap out at the beginning of your upkeep and do nothing until your discard phase, where you spend it all on an instant.

I'm pretty sure that's not right.  I know it's phase oriented.  In fact, you cannot float mana to your draw in 4th ed. because draw was a phase back then, and you could respond to the actual drawing a card (this was when you used VT and such to make sure a shuffle effect couldn't fuck you over).  I seem to remember taking mana burn in Shandlar at the end of my first main phase when I declared attackers.

You're incorrect on the Lightning Bolt.  You die at the end of the upkeep phase.  It was a great trick back then to cast Psionic Blast targeting yourself, activate Mirror Universe, and then your opponent would lose at the end of the upkeep phase.  There was certainly no rule that said "you can't lose during the upkeep."  I know for a fact that numerous games were ended with Mirror Universe at the end of upkeeps.

You couldn't play spells during untap.  You could tap mana and burn during that phase (Mirror Universe tricks once again), but that was it.  If damage was done, you could play damage prevention spells, but that was about it.

I think I still have an old rule book lying around somewheres.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, you can do that.  All you do is declare blocking, and then before "DAMAGE IS ASSIGNED" tap your factory to make him 3/3, and he'll still do damage.

That's not true at all. Tapped blockers didn't do damage in those days.

You check for mana burn at the beginning and end of combat.

You can create batches of spells during the untap via cards like City of Brass (damage prevention window), but that was it.

[Evenpence]

Hmm.

You're right about the tapping blockers - they don't do damage.

I'm pretty sure you check for mana burn at the end of the turn though.  Am I thinking of OLDER rules?  Man, I hope I'm not getting myself mixed up.

[Matt]

Mana burn was NEVER checked at EOT. However, if you got Bolted to death in second main phase, you had until the end of phase to live. Perhaps you meant that.