Lim-Dul's Vault - discussion

[Pselus]

Simple question I suppose:
Why is Lim-Dul's Vault not considered good enough for Vintage play?

Cons:
- provides card disadvantage
- costs life to be truly effective
- restrictive casting cost

Pros:
- digs deep into the deck (for the same cost in life as Vampiric Tutor you get 15 cards deep and you can set up your next 5 draws)
- pitchable to FoW


Just wondering and looking for some insight.

[49 Cents]

You can't cast it turn 1 with an off color mox. You can cast Impulse. And Impulse doesn't require black, which is the main point it isn't played. The only decks that have a basic swamp are TPS and Dragon, and Dragon occasionally plays Vault, while TPS has better thing to do with it's mana.

You can't even cast Vault turn 3 without keeping Drain mana up (3 land and a Mox; go Impulse)

[+t]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13134

Vault is played in many Dragon builds, like this one that Hale Simon T8'd with at Gencon.

I think that you should look at the card as an Impulse effect.  Both dig for cards (Vault for more),  Impulse replaces itself, while Vault does not, Impulse costs 1U, Vault costs UB, which makes Impulse easier to cast.

The only major deck that I can think of that plays Impulse with Oath.  If you're familiar with traditional UBG Oath, you'd recall that Impulse is very often best utilized on turn 1 off moxen mana (which Vault cannot do).  The card is just weaker as an Impulse effect in Oath, which is the only other existing deck that I could see Vault functioning in besides the afformentioned Dragon.

However, I've actually been looking at Vault and Confidant in TPS.  The two cards have incredible synergy, Vault allowing me to stack two and a half turns of cards.  However, I'm not so sure that TPS is really that viable outside of my metagame, so I'll stop rambling.

[nataz]

I always felt that it would be useful in a GWS style oath build as another way to fetch a TW. It's not like Oath can't produce blue and black early, and the tops make the "on top of deck" clause a little easier to swallow. Thing is, oath already has access to a lot of tutors and mini-tutor effects, and I'm not sure that it has room for more.

Demonic and Vamp are basically just better. Impulse can be cast first turn off a mox. Whats left is mystical, Imp Seal, and Muddle.

Mystical: Both are instant speed. Mystical has an easier cc. Vault can fetch anything (with enough life)

Imp: Vault is an instant, which = the all important Tutor -> TW FTW, Imp is not. Imp has an easier cc. Both can fetch anything.

Muddle: Same problem w/ sorcery speed as Imp. I'd say that the CC difficulty is similar, considering there are only 3 sources of mana that produce blue, but not black. Muddle can only fetch 2cc stuff, but is uncounterble.

Final verdict,

meh, I have no idea. I was playing them for a while in an oath deck that used Chains as added disruption, where I treated the vaults like a worse impulse/better telling time. I also used it in a version that was more focused on getting Null rod down early in the game.

The duh answer of course is that its a really good card in 5 color dragon.

edit: +t beat me to the punch

editx2: 500th Post!
I was kinda excited about that, then I realized it's not exactly something to call home about.

Me: Hi World, I just got my 500th Post on TMD!
World: Whats TMD
Me: Its a website about Type 1 magic
World: What is T1 magic, and why do you have enough time to write 500 posts about it?

[zeus-online]

.

[nataz]

Imp = Imperial Seal

my bad for making up bad abrv.

[Whatever Works]

Lim Duls Vault is amazing in dragon... And I think its amazing in Gifts! I ran it maindeck in my gifts list that finished 11th with 5-1-1 record at Gencon main event... In a deck where life doesnt matter to much its like a better version of Vamp that wins the game more consistently searching for perfect piles, and its synergy with brainstorm is incredible.

Kyle L.

[49 Cents]

But with only 2 Underground Sea's, and the large number of Wastelands around, I don't think it's really worth it to fetch out a Sea early simply to have it Wasted.

Or did you play with a basic Swamp?

[Whatever Works]

But with only 2 Underground Sea's, and the large number of Wastelands around, I don't think it's really worth it to fetch out a Sea early simply to have it Wasted.

Or did you play with a basic Swamp?

5 Fetch... 1 Underground Sea... 1 Swamp... 5 Island... 2 Volc... 1 Tolarian Academy... (I also ran 2 B2B in my board for this event which proved amazing as I was able to beat my worst matchup 5c Stax in the later rounds)...

Generally I try to keep fetches on board as long as possible as well, and then LDV at EoT generally making wastes irrelvent... And if they do waste the sea in responce to LDV... I just become more aggresive with my LDV... Life really doesnt matter when you plan on winning the next turn...

In gifts LDV into Brainstorm, Lotus, Demonic, FoW, FoF is extremely common... and generally you can get better sets of 5... Especially if your holding brainstorm in hand when you cast LDV... in which case you dont look for best 5 cards... you look for best 3 cards in a pile of 5... And if you can honestly do this at EoT go through your entire deck... and not find a pile that say "Oops I win!" then I would very suprised.

[BigMac]

This card is really usefull in any combo running blue. Especially TPS, which to me still is viable by the way, as it pitches to FoW, is an instant and will pretty much give you a win quickly top 5 cards.

I will not always put it in my combo as it is a card that is one of those cards that can work really well, but has many replacement possibilities. It really depends on your gameplan. When you want to win fast, this is a good card, if you play it controlled, this is maybe not sch a good choice.

As for dragon, this is a really good card, if only because you can look for the bazaar kill combo and put it on top. You can look what you have and go look for the missing pieces all at once.

As for gifts, in that deck there are far better tutors and better ways to cast them. So not for gifts.

So i think a usefull card, but you need to know what you want to do with it when you play it. The cons listed here do not bother me as much as the advantages. So a card good enough to just make a deck or just fall over the edge.