5c Ubastax, 5c Bazaar Stax, DWT, or POSStax.

[Buttons]

I changed the name because we're still trying to come up with a good nickname for the deck.  DWT is Dirty Welder (or Will) tricks, and POSS is Pile of Sh*t Stax.  I personally like POSS.  The POS is your graveyard. 

I've fiddled around with the idea of a 5c Ubastax build for a good deal, but dismissed it early as a bad idea.  The manabase is rocky, and as any good ubastax player will tell you, colored cards are a detriment in your hand unless they can start giving you threats immediately.

However, 5c Bazaar Stax, which is somewhat more similar to a traditional 5c stax build, just won the seattle vintage championships.

This decklist, posted by its creator, Foolish Mortal, WON, and I repeat WON, the Seattle Vintage Championships:

$T4XX0rs!

MANA:
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen

DRAW:
3 Bazaar or Baghdad  Buttons Note:  Only three!

SPELLS(non creature):
1 Swords To Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
1 Mindslaver
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance

CREATURES:
4 Goblin Welder
2 Triskelion
1 Duplicant
1 Karn,Silver Golem

SIDEBOARD:
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Hurkylls Recall
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Duplicant
1 Null Rod
3 Choke
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Ray of Revelation

I'm going to quote Vroman here, on the makeup of this build.  For those of you who don't know, Vroman is the creator of Ubastax, the deck that's all the rage these days, primarily because Vroman's won two very recent huge SCG tournies.

atleast 1 bazaar definitely belongs in any variety of welder stax, uba or not. the uba mask synergy is ridiculous, but the free draw engine of bazaar is what makes the deck. furthermore, null rod is such a powerfuly cheap lock, it lets you run a riskier lower number of lock density. you found the 2 best elements of ubastax, and then ignored the bulk of the surrounding synergies in the deck, by loading up on activated artifact win conditions and not thoroughly abusing bazaar enough. your not even playing crop rotation. this list cannot be the most efficient 5c bazaar stax.

I agree with his sentiments.  Here's the deal:  If an unoptimized build can win a huge tourney, an optimized build can do much more.  Let's make that optimized build as a community.

Nataz, in the Ubastax primer thread, posted the suggestion of a 5c Ubastax build.

Nataz, for those of you who do not know him, is on the cutting edge with innovations in the Ubastax archetype.  Glacial Chasm [I believe, Vroman can correct me on this] was his idea for a sideboard splash against aggro and combo.  Right now, I even run one Chasm main (although I'm taking it out) because it's so good.

Nataz has also suggested the possibility of instead of running Taigas in the current build [for fastbond and crop rotation] (which has proved to be better than the monored version in small tournaments and through extensive playtesting), to run rainbow lands for SB options and tutors.

Vroman's current list of RG Ubastax is this:

current list:
4 mishra's workshop
4 wasteland
4 barbarian ring
4 bazaar of baghdad
3 taiga
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
9 restricted mana

4 goblin welder
4 smokestack
4 chalice of the void
4 crucible of worlds
3 null rod
3 uba mask
2 gorilla shaman
2 duplicant
1 trinisphere
1 wheel of fortune
1 fastbond
1 crop rotation

side
4 pyroblast
4 viashino heretic
3 fiery temper
2 tormod crypt
2 glacial chasm

Everyone's build might be a little bit different.  I currently am running the same list, with:

-1  Barbarian Ring
+1  Taiga
-1  Duplicant
+1  Glacial Chasm

Nataz is running generally the same thing, with no duplicants MD, no taigas, but 4 city of brass, and a darkblast.

Nataz, in the Ubastax thread, has also suggested cutting Chalice of the Void altogether for the addition of more rainbow lands and tutors.  (many tutors would be set at one, and therefore, would interfere with chalice set for 1).

I've added green to the deck, and haven't looked back, and now that I have, I am sorely temped to add black. Green added so much to the deck, at the cost of so little, could black offer similar results? For starters, running the black tutors means your are running X more crop rotation and fastbond, which is decidedly hott.

I think if we pursue more colors, we are eventualy going to have to drop the chalice, or else risk running into the 5-color stax syndrom as our casting costs become more diverse. Rainbow lands would also have to take the place of the 4 taigas, but I'm still not much more worried about casting my spells then I am for getting RR for the rings. 

1 potential idea for a decklist would be similar to the RG/chasm versions, except

- 1 dupe
- 4 chalice

+ 1 Darkblast (if CS is on the rise, welder is going to become a more common threat)
+ 1 monkey (to help make up for the loss of chalice, and to act in combonation with your own welders vs. opp board)
+ 1 Null Rod (less chalice, more rod)
+ 2 black tutors (I think vamp and Demonic would be my first choice, however both consult and imp have their respective strg in this deck)

something else of note is the SB options you gain from a 5 color base, definatly something to consider.

I think this is a step in the right direction.  Sphere of Resistance is also an option.

With the addition of a 5c manabase, we free up alot of sideboard slots, like Fiery Temper.  We'd definitely leave chasm in the MD for the ability to tutor it when going broken with fastbond (or vice versa), and might even have the capability to add MORE tutors.  That is, only go for tutordom, and not worry about utility spells like swords to plowshares.

We could comfortably go up to 6-7 rainbow lands.

I'll edit this later, but this might be a sample decklist of what we're looking at:

9 Artifact Mana:  (these are the only givens in the entire deck)
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

19 LANDS NOT INCLUDING BAZAAR:
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

27 so far.

3 Bazaar of Baghdad

30 so far.

8 SPELLS (BOMBS):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fastbond
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's Will

38 so far.

16 LOCKS:
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Null Rod
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere

54 so far.

6 CREATURES:
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman

60 total.

SIDEBOARD:
Tons of Options

Okay, that's my 60, and it's not polished at all.  I managed to fit in SEVEN rainbow lands.  There are also two barbarian rings, and not only one.

There are a total of 13 colored spells right now, but it's not only to seven colored mana sources.

The total sources of colored mana in the deck, are:

5 Moxen
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy

16 total.

We're going to have to do it by color.  *sighs*

Null Rod does not affect (NRDNA for short):  Rainbows, Tolarian Academy, Barbarian Ring.

Blue:  1.  Ancestral Recall.
Sources:  10.  Lotus, Sapphire, Tolarian Academy, Rainbows.
NRDNA:  8.
Ratio:  1 to 8.

Black:  2.  Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor.
Sources:  9.  Lotus, Jet, Rainbows.
NRDNA:  7.
Ratio:  2 to 7.

Red:  7.
Sources:  11.  Lotus, Ruby, Rainbows, Barbarian Rings.
NRDNA:  9.
Ratio:  7 to 9.

Green:  2.
Sources:  9.  Lotus, Emerald, Rainbows.
NRDNA:  7.
Ratio:  2 to 7.

White:  1.
Sources:  9.  Lotus, Pearl, Rainbows.
NRDNA:  7.
Ratio:  1 to 7.

Taking out anything uncolored and adding in any additional colored stuff makes that ratio worse.  For instance, if we were to take out a crucible to add in an imperial seal, it would make things worse, but not by a huge amount.

I'm fine at 2 to 4 with my 2 green cards to my 4 taigas.

MANA CURVE:

11 total 1cc cards.  (none of which are weld-in-able)
6 total 2cc cards.   (the null rods are weld-in-able, which leaves demonic and balance)
3 total 3cc cards.   (all weld-in-able)
7 total 4cc cards.  (all weld-in-able)

I think this deck is a great idea, because virtually, all you're doing is making the deck better than it already is, (that is, the one that won the seattle championships,) by making the sphere of resistances uba masks, and converting his big stuff that null rod neuters into synergistic cards.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:

I went with the more tutoring fo' bombs route.  Demonic Consultation in my testing, has been worth it.  You can get a Null Rod and play it first turn easier now.  However, it's out of the deck right now because I don't know what to take out for it.  Vampiric Tutor is a go, because you can get Trinisphere or anything else that just flat out wins you the game.  Demonic is only good to get 4-of's, something this deck does not just heavily rely on, like grubastax.  Moreover, it can just make you lose the game.

My build's not optimal and still needs alot of work.  I went down to 1 B-ring.  *frown*

I took the Uba Mask's out in favor of other things more central to the deck's construction.  I also was still capable of leaving in 2 Gorilla Shaman's, to my heart's content.  Yawgmoth's Will has been added in, probably to the joy of everyone.

Another interesting idea is Regrowth, although it probably won't see play.

The sad thing I'm seeing is that the deck is looking more and more like a 5c stax build, and while adding in Yawgmoth's Will, Spheres, and taking out the Uba Masks, really (I think) benefit the deck, we're still trying to find a happy medium between the power capabilities that regular Uba holds, and the tutoring/bomb capabilities 5c Stax holds.

I think adding in big guys, like Karn/Triskelion is a mistake, because we lose that mentality.

An interesting idea, which was posted on the Ubastax thread is adding in a single Living Wish and having Karn/Triskelion/Titan etc in the SB.  I think it's a subpar idea, but that's only in theory.  In testing, it might be really good, as we have easy ways to discard them.

Also, multiple bazaars are just bad in this deck since we've taken Uba Mask out for now.  We might want to drop the Bazaar count to 2 (eww) or add in just 1 Uba for tutoring.

[benthetenor]

Just a small point of fact, 5cUba Stax (Scuba Stax, if you will) top 8-ed SCG Richmond and placed in other places, so I'm not sure that your title, "making the archetype viable", is a fair one.

The main problem with Scuba Stax is that Null Rod is slightly more of a liability than in mono R Uba Stax, as the mana coming from the moxen becomes slightly more important. Other smaller problems are things like being able to run only 1 Barbarian Ring both due to space and damage considerations and sometimes not being able to run the Uba Mask at all due to dead draw considerations, as in this build. As it stands, this list is much more like 5 color Stax with Bazaar of Baghdad thrown in, so for reference, here's Adam O'Brien's deck from SCG Richmond:

1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice Of The Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Jester's Cap
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Smokestack
1 Sol Ring
3 Uba Mask

Artifact Creatures
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion

Creatures
3 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Legendary Artifact Creatures
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Sorceries
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker

Lands
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
2 Orb Of Dreams
2 Sacred Ground
2 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Rack And Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm

This list has some other interesting touches, like -1 of both Welder, Bazaar and Trinisphere, as well as the addition of Karn and Jester's Cap, but with fewer Null Rods main, Karn makes a bit of sense, if not being completely necessary. Darksteel Colossus also seems unnecessary, but with Tinker in the deck, there's always that play. The most obvious benefit that you get from a 5 color mana base is a diverse and devastating sideboard. Other choices not represented by O'Brien's list are Ground Seal, Darkblast, Blue Elemental Blast, Fire/Ice, Choke... even something like Ray of Revelation or Echoing Truth becomes a possibility. A lot of those choices are suboptimal, but they are better vs. different archetypes. For instance, I'd much rather have Ground Seal over Dream Ball vs. Dragon.

[Juggernaut GO]

I spent all of last week making a  5 color uba stax deck, and it did not have good results.  Strictly speaking, there is no viable reason to transfer the deck to 5 color.  The primary lock component  uba mask just completely works against some of the control cards/tutors that are common in a regular 5c stax deck.  I dont know how many games I would remove balance or demonic tutor or even vamp when I did not have the mana available to cast them. 

Mono R  or the 2 card green splash version  just doesn't care if a lock piece gets removed with uba when you cant cast it.  The deck is incredibly redundant and will always replace what it has removed and you don't have to worry about losing a  key spell  such as balance.

Also running more then 1 bazaar just clogs the mana to shit simply because you have to choose whether to get a  mana base out first, or start drawing with bazaar.  Other times, you get land fucked with a bazaar as your only land outside of maybe a workshop. 

I think the 2 cards that Vroman added are the only 2 that warrant inclusion in an uba stax deck.  Fastbond just gets your mana out that much faster expecially when you are drawing 4-5 cards a turn and you don't want your excess land removed.   And crop rotation is another way to find a bazaar or strip mine. 

I would reccommend that the bazaar count get cut down to 2 in the R/G version as well, that is when I found the deck to run the best.  I also believe that the deck has to run chalice null rod and sphere of resistance if it were to compete in a tournament like waterbury where you will have to be lucky not to face a drain deck  4 out of 8 rounds.

In my testing against gifts when I didnt resolve a 1st turn sphere or null rod I lost the game.  Chalice just was not enough to win the game.

[nataz]

I don't care what we call the thread, but its nice to see one up. I know 5cUba has done well on the west coast, as well as in Richmond and over in europe. I think it's different enough from the mono-red/green splash versions that a seperate thread will be much more readable and less cluttered.

I also agree that 5cUba is kind of straddling the center between classic 5cStax and UbaStax, but that doesn't mean that it is automaticaly worse then either. What draws me to 5 colorStax are cards like balance, black tutors, and green bombs. What draws me to UbaStax is a prison deck with a real draw engine (H8 TFK/Meditate/etc). I think it should be possible to find a decent compromise between the two decks, although I suppose I can not rule out the possibility that the combonation is worse then either of the two parts.   

anyways, on to the topic.

@jugg

Mono R or the 2 card green splash version just doesn't care if a lock piece gets removed with uba when you cant cast it. The deck is incredibly redundant and will always replace what it has removed and you don't have to worry about losing a key spell such as balance.

I kinda sorta agree with this. It's true, the more non perm stuff you add the more you are likely to pitch when you are ubazaaring. But look at what I am proposing to replace. 4 Chalice and the 1 dupe are the most often cards that I don't cast/can't cast and end up pitching in those situations anyways. Chalice above two is a huge mana investment, often times there are better things to do with the 3-5 cards you drew that turn, and chalice two and under depends a lot on my board. Do I have a welder out, do I have a null rod out, do I already have a chalice for 0 or 1 out, etc.

Also running more then 1 bazaar just clogs the mana to shit simply because you have to choose whether to get a mana base out first, or start drawing with bazaar. Other times, you get land fucked with a bazaar as your only land outside of maybe a workshop.

That I disagree totally with. If anything, I use bazaar to find mana sources. I can dump just about my entire lib in my gy, and be okay. Null Rods, Stax, Crucible (all 4-of's), and artifact mana can be welded, lands can be brought back via crucible. Thats a solid portion of the deck that I can dump, in search of a specific color land, or card. Bazaar is why I like the deck, its a mini-tutor, it mana fixes, it enables early welder usage, and it combo draws/winz with fastbond and crucible, or just even uba crucible and waste. I would be really hesitant to cut any of them.   

I also believe that the deck has to run chalice null rod and sphere of resistance if it were to compete in a tournament like waterbury where you will have to be lucky not to face a drain deck 4 out of 8 rounds.In my testing against gifts when I didnt resolve a 1st turn sphere or null rod I lost the game. Chalice just was not enough to win the game

I totally agree that chalice is not enough vs. many gifts decks. Most, if not all, of the gifts decks are pre-boarded against chalice with rebuild and tendrils maindeck. I'd almost always rather have a null rod, monkey, or a sphere then a chalice for zero against gifts. The only time I wouldn't is when they go for the really fast tinker -> DSC which gives any stax decks problems if done in the first or second turn. Chalice for 1 on the play is obv. great against gifts, and I would do it in a heartbeat everytime, welders or no welders. The problem is, game 1, on the play, you have no idea what they are playing, and I am hesitant to drop a blind chalice @1 especialy with welder or monkey in hand. For me therefore, chalice for zero is the default, and it can screw you.  

Spheres are defiantly something that I want to look at more. They are weldable, don't screw the mana base, playable easily first turn, and when ubazaaring. I might be tempted to try and replace my now 3 shamans, not welders with 3 spheres. I'd like to her from b-tings and how he likes the spheres currently (even if I do disagree with taking out null rod for them!).


.

[Foolish Mortal]

@Nataz
I fully agree with your statement regarding using the Bazaars to find mana sources. I played through 5 rounds of the swiss (Seattle Vintage Champs) and was not mana screwed even once. The Bazaars were amazing all day long, always helping me find what I needed... The Spheres also were great and even packing as many Null Rods as I was, I was never short on mana to cast threats. Crucible/Bazaar is great at helping to stabilize the mana quickly and it is retarded with Fastbond. Not only does the Fastbond/Crucible make it easy to combo kill with the Barbarian ring, but you are also able to ramp Smokestack higher and wipe their board more quickly in exchange for a few points of life and still be unaffectetd by your Sphere or Null Rod. I also would like to hear from b-tings 'cause he is smart young lad and we used to play occasionally when he lived here in Van.

I used to run Uba Mask in my deck, pre 5c, but I would never win the game with it in play. Everytime I got it into play, my opponents were able to play their cards regardless and combo kill me (here in the Northwest, there is a hell of alot of Gifts,Oath and Dragon). The list I won with was thrown together, with the basic game plan of a. locking up the board as quickly as possible with Sphere,Rod and Crucible/Waste/Strip b. Cleanup whatever slipped through early via Smokestack/Stp/Balance c. Mop up the opponent with Trike/Dupe/Karn. I didn't have any issues with the anti synergy between the Rod and my activated win conditions... I was always able to control the Rod with Welder or Smokestack for the win (or just not even cast it if I had Sphere/Striplock anyway). It has already been pointed out that my list is suboptimal, but it sure ran like a well oiled machine for the duration of that tournament. Lucky me

[b-tings]

Ask and ye shall receive.

I haven't gotten any significant testing in yet. I've been real busy with just seeing all the people I missed while I was out East, and haven't had time to just sit down and flop some magical cards. I can, however, make a few comments.

I think Sphere is, synergystically, stronger here than in any other Stax deck I've seen it perform in. It makes your opening game much stronger, and this deck can explode from under Sphere like no other Stax deck before it. Under Sphere, you keep running Bazaar to try to maintain parity, digging for Wasteland effects (or if you're lucky, Crucible to recur one), extra Spheres, Smokestack at one, Null Rod, and other asphyxiation, all the while setting up a disgusting graveyard. Once your opponent starts missing drops, you have the freedom to slow up a little bit and use Bazaar to sculpt a whole hand as opposed to individual drops. After keeping the board nice and skinny, finding a mox and a Welder should be enough to do what Welder does best. I'll get back to what Welder does best a little bit later. If you've managed to stick a Crucible, of course, Fastbond is a one-way ticket to Scooptown. Bazaar lets you set up these ridiculous situations under a Sphere. Now I'm going to say something that should suprise you.

For the 5c build everyone is picturing, I don't think Sphere of Resistence is right. This is largely due to the clot of cards at 1 cc that makes Chalice a poor addition. Sphere is nothing but a blip unless Moxen are dealt with, and there is no other way to do it in a single turn. Null Rod on turn two is a decent follow-up, but it gives them at a minimum an extra shot at Force of Will. Conversely, I've screwed more than one hand that looked something like land mox mox force gas gas gas or land land mox mox Force gas gas, by leading with Sphere, which they let stick, and using the extra mana off a shop to drop chalice for zero (playing 5c, not Uba). Leading with a Sphere of Resistence and following up with a Monkey to do cleanup requires either a pound and a half of jewelry or roughly 1239084712633427854 turns. Because Chalice for one is pretty rough on the common 5c builds, Chalice in general gets pretty weak, and once Chalice gets cut, I think Sphere has to go with it. Whether or not Sphere can stand on it's own two legs will require more testing.

I think, therefore, that 5c is going to be pulled two ways: a build with Sphere and Chalice, and a build with a clot of cards at 1 cc. The major arguments against the Sphere/Chalice build are a) the potential disinclusion of strong cards at 1 cc, and b) the fact that, despite deliberately trying to work in the ability to play Chalice at one, the cards that make Sphere so strong here (Bazaar synergy with Welder and Fastbond) are all at 1 cc anyways. To the second, I say that the instances where Chalice at one is strong are not going to be the instances where you want to explode out from under a Sphere of Resistence, and visa versa. To the first, only thorough testing will tell if there's merit to it.

The next interesting case is the disinclusion of Uba Mask, both practical (Foolish Mortal's case) and theoretical (the general case). In the practical case, I think it was a good metagame call. Shops always seem to have either a disproportionate share of the metagame or top 8 (it may not make sense that it's one or the other, but I tend to think of it as a few good players that consistently bring shops, and a lot of less good players that occasionally bring shops) in the Northwest, and you can usually count on there being some form of aggressive combo in the top 8 (although this is occasionally Dragon, in which case the mask seems like some good).

The general case is more interesting, however. People have been hesistant to question the flagship card of the deck, but I think it deserves closer scrutiny. Specifically, Bazaar has good synergy with Uba Mask, good synergy with Crucible of Worlds, and good synergy with Welder, but the synergy between Uba Mask and Bazaar has poor synergy with the synergy between Welder and Bazaar, and has poor synergy with the synergy between Crucible and Bazaar. I just used synergy eight times in one sentence. I'm fairly certain that deserves a medal of some kind. The point is, the individual cards are synergistic, but the synergies are anti-synergistic, so you have individual cards working brilliantly but an entire deck working clankily. I'm sure everyone has felt this when they've Bazaared and removed a Duplicant they couldn't cast, only to find themselves digging several turns later for an answer to Akroma, with a Welder finding new and interesting things to do with its thumb lodged firmly in its ass. On a lesser scale, I may Bazaar with a Workshop in my graveyard and Crucible on the table (or a Shop already removed by Uba Mask), and hit, say, Smokey and Strip Mine, and have to choose between Strip Mine and Smokestack. Without Mask, these would simply be dumped for later abuse. While I certainly have not done enough testing to recommend the removal of Uba Mask yet, I'm going to say that people need to pay very close attention to everything they consider auto-inclusions. Especially with the inclusion of all the black tutors, the Bazaar Stax (if we're going to talk about removing Mask, we're going to have to stop calling it Uba Stax) player has an unprecedented opportunity to do what Welder does best (see, I told you I'd get back to it): circumnavigate huge mana costs. With a Welder and Bazaar on the table, suddenly Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal don't take an extra turn to set up us the bomb. Sundering Titans and Possessed Portals can appear out of absolutely nowhere and blow an otherwise close game to pieces. With Uba Mask, though, Bazaaring into these cards is dead weight. Without Uba Mask, Bazaaring into these cards is setting up for you to draw into Welder. Something to think about.

A few other cards I'll mention in passing:

Darkblast: I don't see it as significantly better than Barbarian Ring. They definately don't kill Welders significantly better. The two things they do are put less strain on the mana, and feed the graveyard. Is this worth it? If you're playing Chalice, definately not. If you're not, maybe it deserves a look.

Time Walk: Get rid of the question mark. Vroman has been very vocal about it for a long time, and while I haven't been as visible about it, I've been equally steadfast in my inclusion, dating back to my 5c days when 5c was the Stax deck to play and people STILL wouldn't include it. Not optional.

Trinisphere: Likewise. especially with tutoring power, this gives you the ability to put the nail in basically any coffin.

Vampiric Tutor: the opposite. Don't automatically assume this is better than Demonic Consultation. In Chalice builds, this is particularly true, as it can dig up a first turn chalice for zero to help develop slow hands.

Will: Almost certainly not? This deck sets up the graveyard better than any other Stax deck. Knowing how powerful Will is in 5c, this dismissal raised an eyebrow. I understand how packed this deck is, but it absolutely deserves a serious look.

I may post more later after some reflection. Right now, I've got a skytrain to catch.

[nataz]

@ b-tings, thanks for the unput

reading over your reply, I can assume you didn't cut null rod for sphere?

Because Chalice for one is pretty rough on the common 5c builds, Chalice in general gets pretty weak, and once Chalice gets cut, I think Sphere has to go with it. Whether or not Sphere can stand on it's own two legs will require more testing.

I don't think i'm nearly as convinced as you that sphere can not stand on its own, but I really haven't had time to test it. sphere with a null rod down seems like a pretty good speed bump, and 4 mana turn 1 insant that amzing with a full set of artifact mana and WS. At the very least you can play one, and hopefuly shut off the threat of drain next turn (leaving the ever present FOW to deal with).

Either way, I'm actualy looking forward to testing them now.

The next interesting case is the disinclusion of Uba Mask

I go back and forth on this card. With a bazaar, its just plain amazing, but I don't think I have ever run them as a 4-of. I think if I add more tutors, I may drop yet another one.

and that being said

Sundering Titans and Possessed Portals can appear out of absolutely nowhere and blow an otherwise close game to pieces.

I reaaaaaly want to play portal. 

[Sean Ryan]

Derren, Props once again brotha!  Even though you won the SVC, you had some jank up in there.  I undestand Karn and Trike, but Mindslaver!?!?! & Null Rod!?!?! Very Johny...maybe even Timmy.  That being said, 5c Bazaar Stax is the way to go.  

How many Bazaars are optimal is up for debate.  Running tutors allow you to run a lower count and still maintain consistency.  I don't think there is room for a full set of 4 b/c. you want access to all of those colorful bombs.  Currently, I'm testing the difference between 2 and 3 Bazaars.

I haven't been happy with Chalice lately, and moved them to the SB.  However, I think the Spheres are needed.  Basically, you must have a first turn lock peice/Welder against control, or you will probally lose.  

I know some of you have been running 7 5clands, but that is to low, especially games 2&3 when all of those colorful SB cards come in.  

I still have KArn and Trike MD regardless of the Rods they seem indespencible.  I'm also running Titan now that we have another way to pitch him.  Titans presence makes Tinker a real bomb again.

Here's another list to spam the thread with

14: Lock Peices

4 Smokestack
3 Crucible
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod

8: Creatures

3 Welder
2 Shaman
1 Karn ???
1 Trike
1 Titan

10: Bombs

2 Bazaars
1 Will
1 DT
1 VT
1 CR
1 Tinker
1 Recall
1 Balance
1 Fastbond

28: Mana including -

8 5c Lands
1 B-ring

SB:
3 Chalice
2 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 In the Eye of Chaos
2 StP
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Heretic
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Running a single Uba Mask is something else I"ve been considering and I would like t fit in Imperial Seal as well.  Anythoughts on these two?  

Some of you have dismissed Yawgmoth's Will, but I think that is a mistake.  Sure, it sits in your hand sometimes, but it is often the only card that will wins you games you would normally lose.  Not to mention Vroman, Smennen, and Cron all advocate its use.  When playing stax games usually go a few different ways, either; a) you establish a quick lock that is close to unbeatable, b) you mull and cannot lock opponent fast enough and lose, c) you play a grinding game of attrition with a fat graveyard where Will is the best top deck you can hope for.  

Thoughts? Reactions? Criticism?  Praise?

EDITED: In responce to B-Tings and Nataz -

 

I think Sphere is, synergystically, stronger here than in any other Stax deck I've seen it perform in. It makes your opening game much stronger, and this deck can explode from under Sphere like no other Stax deck before it. Under Sphere, you keep running Bazaar to try to maintain parity, digging for Wasteland effects (or if you're lucky, Crucible to recur one), extra Spheres, Smokestack at one, Null Rod, and other asphyxiation, all the while setting up a disgusting graveyard. Once your opponent starts missing drops, you have the freedom to slow up a little bit and use Bazaar to sculpt a whole hand as opposed to individual drops. After keeping the board nice and skinny, finding a mox and a Welder should be enough to do what Welder does best. I'll get back to what Welder does best a little bit later. If you've managed to stick a Crucible, of course, Fastbond is a one-way ticket to Scooptown. Bazaar lets you set up these ridiculous situations under a Sphere. Now I'm going to say something that should suprise you.

Wow, you did a better job of articulating opposition to your own argument of not running SoR.  Although I woud re-emphasize the need for a turn one lock peice.  Why do you think Chalice and Sphere must run togther?  I do not find them dependant at all.  The same goes for the either/or presentation of 1cc bombs vs. Sphere.  Why are you presenting these as mutually exclusive?  You also left your position unclear - what would you run instead of Chalice/Sphere?

I commend your observation on the anti synergy of combined synergies involving Uba Mask and the other componenets...and for saying synergy so many times in one sentence. 

Time Walk - It's not that I'm totally against it, now that Tangle Wire is no more, but it just seems weaker than the tutors, Will, Balance ect.  And if we are in the position of quoting the "expertz" Meandeck didn't run Walk in its 5c builds.  However, I will put it on my list of things to test for Stax.

Nataz - Dido, Possessed Portal is sooo tempting

 
Sean

[b-tings]

Can you tell I'm on the fence about whether to include SoR or not? I probably flipped about three times while writing that post.

The reason I linked Sphere to 1 cc cards is that Chalice is a fairly weak card if you can't set it to 1, and I had previously linked Sphere to Chalice. So too many 1 cc cards means no Chalice at one, means no Chalice in the deck, means no Sphere of Resistence. I'm not saying this is correct, but that was the logical process.

If I sounded unconvincing about Sphere being linked to Chalice, or about it's inclusion/disinclusion, it's because I'm unconvinced. I will say that the best openings with Sphere are those that include a Chalice the same turn. Null Rod the turn after is probably not nearly as bad as I make it sound, though.

I'm currently playing with three, and I can't see it staying that high. That said, if you ran Mask as a 1-of, would you ever end up tutoring for it?

Here's a sample Chalice-less list I'm going to try to get some testing with:

8 SoLoMoxCrypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Tcadamy
4 Cities
4 Gemstone Mines
1 b-ring
2 Bazaars
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
4 Shop

Coloured Bombs

1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Balance
1 Fastbond
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor

Lock Parts

1 3sphere
3 1sphere
2 Null Rod
4 Crucible
4 Smokestack

Those things with little numbers in the corners

4 Welder
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn

This may seem a little overboard on the coloured cards, and thin on the mox hate, but I want to get a feel for how all the coloured cards work. They'll be rotated in and out of my test games for the third Null Rod. Other cards that may see face time are Imperial Seal, and (keep your fingers crossed) Possessed Portal.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Null Rod is just so good...Having one resolve is just about the best thing a Stax deck can do against anything except fish or oath.  As such, I think at least 3 is correct, and maybe 4 since even though they're redundant, being able to pitch to 'zaar make them not completely dead draws.

[b-tings]

After some very thorough investigation, I have come to a startling conclusion that I think will shake this deck, and vintage magic, to their very foundations.

Yawgmoth's Will is pretty good when you have a way to set up a big graveyard.

[Buttons]

If Uba Mask gets taken out, the Bazaar count should be lowered to 3, (or possibly two, as bazaars are then not very good at all in duplicants), and Yawgmoth's Will would be added to the deck.

The deck should have a codename to separate it from the other stax builds.

5c Bazaar Stax is just too long to say.

Scuba is an easy way to identify a 5-color uba stax build, but what if we're not running Uba?

Right now, this is pretty much the only version really left to ALOT of discussion.

The traditional 5c list has had a ton of variation, but it's boiled down to more or less Chang's build with small variants.
The current ubastax build might as well be set in stone.
Unfortunately, not alot of people play Cron's build, and there's not a whole lot of discussion about it.

So that leaves us with a 4th, undeveloped archetype.

For the debate:  I don't like Karn/Triskelion.  Titan's okay, but stuff that gets neutered by Null Rod is out of the question.

Sphere is a good idea.  Sphere/Null Rod sounds really good, and as it's been said before, 4 mana is not hard to pull off first turn with Workshop/9 mana accelerants.

I'll edit the decklist to take out all but one Uba, and make it a little more according to the kind of deck we've been talking about.

[b-tings]

I've codenamed the deck D.W.T, which stands for, on varying occasions, Dirty Welder Tricks or Dirty Will Tricks. It's a nod to the fact that, with the disinclusion of Uba, this deck is about setting up the graveyard.

I have no problem with Karn, mostly because you weld out Null Rod for him at opponents eot, and then you crush moxen. I understand if you feel he needs to be removed, though. I may replace him with a Monkey before long. Or, better yet, a Possessed Portal.

EDIT

Or I'll just throw the third Null Rod in there. Seems good.

SECOND EDIT

I'm sticking to DWT regardless of what the general public says.

[benthetenor]

If Uba Mask gets taken out, the Bazaar count should be lowered to 3, (or possibly two, as bazaars are then not very good at all in duplicants), and Yawgmoth's Will would be added to the deck.

Bazaar is good with Welder. Bazaar is good with...shit, I don't know, the whole deck. Don't take out the draw engine, please.

[vroman]

interesting thread

re: welder + uba + bazaar synergy
if you have welder and uba in play, it doesnt matter if you cant discard bazaar draws, bc you have uba lock, something that hasnt been mentioned at all here as one of the primary reasons for including uba in the deck in the first place. there is no dis-synergy here.

re: sphere resistance
this is a good card. in testing Ive spent a lot of time piloting control slaver against stax builds. resistor cripples the efficiency of slaver. CS loves setting up big stacks w shit like m-tutor, brainstorm, tfk, find the force of will, etc. when a chain like that costs another 5 mana, its impossible. when slaver is reduced to only doing one thing per turn, it falls behind very quickly. if its lucky enough to drain something at all under resistor, it will chew up all its bonus mana just running its normal draw engine, and not be able to achieve anything broken. there were many times I either regretted not forcing a resistor, or did force the resistor, and then was unable to counter a more expensive threat like smoky.
against combo, resistor is better than n-rod, bc storm decks can't remotely afford to add 10+ mana to their minimum lethal chain of spells.
and of course in multiples, resistors can completely shut an opponent out on their own.
the reason I play n-rod instead is that n-rod is in and of itself very disruptive, yet less disruptive to my own deck than n-rod. ubastax has a relatively high mana curve, yet a workshop + any other land can cast any lock. w 4 mana on board, I typicaly will cycle moxes to bazaar even if n-rod isnt in play, simply to find threats I know I can cast. w resistor, not only are the moxes less efficient bc they cost 1, but I cant cycle them as readily bc I need 5 mana to cast most my locks. resistor is a drag on my board development far more than n-rod.

re: possessed portal
Ive tried to improve cerebral assassin a number of times. eliminating the reanimator combo engine and turning it into a workshop based stax variant may be the trick. p-portal is an entire stax deck in a single card, a very impressive effect. unfortunately, I think you need squees to properly play a p-portal lock, and I hate squee. if you do try this card, Id insist on 2xdarkblasts main. dredging is perfect to find squee and win conditions. also goblin recruiter is a mega vamp tutor to set up draw engine and find infinite goblin welders.

re: black
since Im positive 5cuba isnt viable, Im assuming adding black would be for a RBubastax deck.
darkblast is an auto-include. one main and X side. w bazaar, you can achieve multiple hits per turn, making it prohibitively uncounterable. the recursion is sweet, and the dredge is excellent for this deck.
play yawg will. you can carefully wage a long smokestack battle, always sacking the permanents that will be easiest to replay via yawgwill, and blow them out w a huge swing in permanent count. thats just one example. keeping a lot of red mana open and suddenly flooding the board w 3 welders, which they invested a lot of cards counter/killing or you cycled to bazaar. its just broken.
demonic consultation is the only tutor Id consider worth it. there is little to no room for colored bombs to begin w and this is the most efficient one. I do like the point of playing vamp+impseal w welder+bazaar in play, which makes th top-of-library tutors more efficient in this deck than others, but still not worth cutting locks for, which can just be digged up w bazaar on its own. also the bad synergy w restricted cards and chalice @ 1 is one of the major flaws of traditional 5c stax that Id like to avoid.
so the color debate is basicaly darkblast + yawg will (+d-consult?) vs fastbond + cropper. fbond is effectively a 1 mana infinite yawg will for land, when the lands in ubastax are better than any other deck's. cropper is a 1 mana tinker, again for high utility ubastax lands. if limited to only 2-3 non-red colored cards the green are simply better than the black

re: activated win conditions
among karn, mindslaver, trike, and less popular choices (ah, old masticore, what a house), if I had to pick one, I say trike over karn, and call mindslaver distinctly unplayable. w n-rod, chalice and monkey, karn's mox sniping ability is already taken care of. however, trike guns welder very easily, when b-ring isnt always primed to go. as for which is better at killing the opponent (karn, obv), good stax players know this is a very low priority.

[b-tings]

I just want to comment on a couple of specific points.

re: sphere resistance
this is a good card. in testing Ive spent a lot of time piloting control slaver against stax builds. resistor cripples the efficiency of slaver. CS loves setting up big stacks w shit like m-tutor, brainstorm, tfk, find the force of will, etc. when a chain like that costs another 5 mana, its impossible. when slaver is reduced to only doing one thing per turn, it falls behind very quickly. if its lucky enough to drain something at all under resistor, it will chew up all its bonus mana just running its normal draw engine, and not be able to achieve anything broken. there were many times I either regretted not forcing a resistor, or did force the resistor, and then was unable to counter a more expensive threat like smoky.
against combo, resistor is better than n-rod, bc storm decks can't remotely afford to add 10+ mana to their minimum lethal chain of spells.
and of course in multiples, resistors can completely shut an opponent out on their own.
the reason I play n-rod instead is that n-rod is in and of itself very disruptive, yet less disruptive to my own deck than n-rod. ubastax has a relatively high mana curve, yet a workshop + any other land can cast any lock. w 4 mana on board, I typicaly will cycle moxes to bazaar even if n-rod isnt in play, simply to find threats I know I can cast. w resistor, not only are the moxes less efficient bc they cost 1, but I cant cycle them as readily bc I need 5 mana to cast most my locks. resistor is a drag on my board development far more than n-rod.

And

re: activated win conditions
among karn, mindslaver, trike, and less popular choices (ah, old masticore, what a house), if I had to pick one, I say trike over karn, and call mindslaver distinctly unplayable. w n-rod, chalice and monkey, karn's mox sniping ability is already taken care of. however, trike guns welder very easily, when b-ring isnt always primed to go. as for which is better at killing the opponent (karn, obv), good stax players know this is a very low priority.

I'd say I've had less trouble working around Sphere of Resistence than N-rod. With Sphere, you can still drop artifact mana sources, and then munch on theirs. Also, you save yourself the trouble of trying to work around having activated abilities, which allows me to slip in a Karn to be welded in and go to work. I also think that for a 5c build, access to your moxen becomes more relevent. If resistor really is better against (non-belcher) combo and CS, what is Null Rod better against? And if it's a short list, why are we playing it over resistor?

re: possessed portal
Ive tried to improve cerebral assassin a number of times. eliminating the reanimator combo engine and turning it into a workshop based stax variant may be the trick. p-portal is an entire stax deck in a single card, a very impressive effect. unfortunately, I think you need squees to properly play a p-portal lock, and I hate squee. if you do try this card, Id insist on 2xdarkblasts main. dredging is perfect to find squee and win conditions. also goblin recruiter is a mega vamp tutor to set up draw engine and find infinite goblin welders.

Obviously, this card belongs in Stax. I'm not so certain it can't survive without Squee though. If you can set up an overall card advantage between permanents and hands, you get to run the obliteratwist, and keep a few choice permanents for yourself. With Crucible, every turn you can keep it alive is an extra permanent, which makes winning this war a LOT easier, and rebuilding after is easier. You can also Weld it out after End Step triggers resolve to try and get your card for the turn and then weld it back in, but beware of stuff like TfK. I'll throw one in with an imperial seal for kicks, and see how it performs.

re: black
since Im positive 5cuba isnt viable, Im assuming adding black would be for a RBubastax deck.
darkblast is an auto-include. one main and X side. w bazaar, you can achieve multiple hits per turn, making it prohibitively uncounterable. the recursion is sweet, and the dredge is excellent for this deck.

Two things bother me about this. One, the statement that Darkblast is an auto-include. Some in the sideboard seems reasonable, but other than Welder and Kataki, what are the major problem 1-toughness creatures? 2 toughness creatures? Are they common enough to justify it?

I'm also curious as to why you're positive that 5c is non-viable. Not because I'm positive it is, but because I'd be interested in the perceived problems with it.

[Imsomniac101]

Quote
re: activated win conditions
among karn, mindslaver, trike, and less popular choices (ah, old masticore, what a house), if I had to pick one, I say trike over karn, and call mindslaver distinctly unplayable. w n-rod, chalice and monkey, karn's mox sniping ability is already taken care of. however, trike guns welder very easily, when b-ring isnt always primed to go. as for which is better at killing the opponent (karn, obv), good stax players know this is a very low priority.

Just a thought, if Null Rod is a problem for traditional win conditions. wouldn't March of the Machines be a good win condition? It isn't weldable which is a huge liability, but that is the only thing i see going against it. (and maybe, not being able to be cast of WS).

EDIT: cancel that suggestion. March of the Machines costs 4. which makes it subpar and uncastable.

Has nobody looked at Tangle Wire yet? It is such a beating, and answers early Oaths and the like.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Potentially annoying 1 and 2- tough creatures to hit:

Kataki
Welder
Pikula
Savannah Lions
Isamaru
Dark Confidant
Spirit Token
Sol Ring(under Karn)

Edit: Shaman

[Jacob Orlove]

If you're running Uba Mask, containing Welder is absolutely essential, moreso than even regular Stax. Winning the Welder war doesn't just give you an advantage--it's generally a prerequisite for not losing the game.

[vroman]

re: darkblast
entirely worth it just for welder removal. moxmonkey is a distant second. everything else Id just consider splash damage. enemy welder is a huge problem, having a secure means to eliminate them is very good for stax.

re: 5cuba
the ubazaar engine takes up all the slots that would normally go to broken colored stuff. the only other option is severely weakening the complementary locks. also 5c stax of any variety has a problem running challice, which undermines the whole sub-archetype.

re: resistor vs n-rod
having n-rod in play lets me squeeze more efficiency out of my resources than resistor. w resistor in play I have to put more cards from my hand on the table, and thus in the long run, will have fewer oportunities to activate bazaar, and lose the edge in the card quality race. as for disruption, resistor is better across the entire meta, but nrod is very good against tier decks.

[Juggernaut GO]

I have a  feeling that mesmiric fiend and dark confidant are going to make darkblast an even stronger choice for creature removal.

[GAUDARD]

Someone suggested bumping this thread...

While the deck is choked full of broken things, if it is a 1 of you can only draw it a small percentage of the time. Why would you want something that looks like it would be inconsistent?

[Klep]

Don't necro 3-month-old threads.
-Klep