Play Scenario: FoF piles

[Khahan]

I was playing on MWS today and came across an interesting FoF pile.

Force of Will
Mana Drain
Force of will
Brainstorm
Tolarian Academy

I had [card]counterbalance[/card] on the table and a CoTV set at 2 when my opponent flipped these. It was mid game and mana was still developing.

My hand was near empty, w/ a FoW on top of my deck and a worthless Daze in hand.

I separated the piles into this:
FoW/FoW
Mana Drain/Tolarian/Brainstorm

My reasoning was this: I already had a counter advantage, having shut off his drains and having a card in hand to pitch to my force.  I was playing a u/g fish variant I'm working on that has a number of threats, so even if I lose a counterwar over one,  I'll still have threats to play out.

My opponent was playing some kind of gifts variant and had already used 2 gifts.    I wasn't sure what kind of gas he had left in his deck.

I knew the mana drain was useless to him and didn't really want him having the Tolarian.

My questions are this:
1) How would you have divided up the piles?
2) If you divided them up the way I did, which pile do you expect your opponent to take?

[Khahan]

We're gonna need waaaaaaaaayy more information than that.

1) How many cards are in your opponent's graveyard?  What are some of those cards?  Are they any good? (You said he used 2x Gifts already--what did he get with those?)
2) How many cards are in your opponent's hand?
3) What does his board look like?  Does he have a lot of mana already?  Moxes/artifact mana? Does he have access to black and/or red mana yet?
4) What is his life total?
5) You knew that you had FoW on top of the deck, correct?
6) "Near empty"--what does that mean?  Do you have lands in your hand?  How many cards do you have and what are they?
7) What does your board look like?  Do you have anything that does something on board?

I already don't like your split based on the information you gave, but I will need infinite more information to actually answer this question.

1) 9 cards, 1 FoW, 1 brainstorm, 2 gifts, I forget the others, but most of them were victims of counterbalance.

2) 2 cards in his hand. FoF would have given him 4 or 5

3) Mox Ruby, Sol Ring, Island, underground Sea. that was it.

4) 19 (for each of us)

5) I had FoW on top of my deck from the last spell he cast (counterbalance revealed it)

6) I had a Daze in hand. There was a regrowth in my deck. That is all I had to recur GY cards. I don't want to get too much into my 'supersecret tech-deck!!!!' details. But it is a u/g fish w/ none of the old standby creatures. 4 FoW, misdirection, stifle, drain.  There was a fetchland,  stifle and 2 drains in my gy (first drain on turn 2 was against his first Gifts...I used that mana for the chalice.  2nd drain and stifle was against his second gifts (drained it and stifled the chalice trigger. That was at the end of my last turn. He just untapped after that and was in his first main phase).

7) My board was: 3 trop, 1 island, 1 offcolor mox  Chalice set at 2 and counterbalance.


Other cards of note I saw in game 1 from my opponents deck: ancestral, demonic, mystical, Tinker, yawg will, vampiric.

[Demonic Attorney]

In order to address your question, the information I'd be most interested in is what else was in your opponent's graveyard and what they retrieved with Gifts Ungiven.  Judging by your description, it sounds to me like their hand features 2 solid cards, since you didn't mention anything significant in their graveyard and they've already played Gifts twice.  I guess I'd also be somewhat interested in the converted mana cost distribution in your deck, so I know the odds of Counterbalance hitting 1cc and 3cc spells, since those slots strike me as the most relevant in this scenario.

Assuming for the moment that your opponent grabbed important cards with Gifts which are still in his hand, assuming that his critical spells (Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will) aren't already in his graveyard among the "victims of counterbalance," assuming that your opponent is playing Fact or Fiction at the end of your turn, and lastly assuming you had nothing but Daze and lands in your hand, without any other relevant threats, I'd assess the cards flipped like so:

Mana Drain:  Virtually irrelevant, due to the CotV for 2.

Brainstorm:  Not especially significant, since he has no fetchlands on the table, and ostensibly doesn't have one hand.  Furthermore, since the cards in his hand are strong, he probably doesn't want to put either of them on top of his library, so Brainstorm would amount to a 1-for-1 cantrip and a look at the next 2 draws.

Force of Will x2:  Fairly important, since these could serve to force through a significant threat, and he's likely holding at least one in his hand at this point.

Tolarian Academy:  The critical card.  Gifts is tremendously mana-hungry, and from your summary, your opponent doesn't look to have finished his mana development yet.  Academy will do that and more for him, all by itself. 

On your end, you're looking at the ability to stop FoW dead in its tracks on your opponent's turn, and counter once after yours begins and you draw your card.  Daze is available, but due to the pattern of your opponent's resources and the Chalice for 2, it doesn't seem especially relevant, since they won't be tapping themselves out to play a 3cc threat and defend it with Mana Drain.

With that in mind:

Pile 1:  Mana Drain, Brainstorm, Force of Will
Pile 2:  Force of Will, Tolarian Academy

If your opponent chooses Pile 1, they're bereft of any additional mana sources to leverage any major threats they might have from their Gifts.  Assuming you're not an idiot and didn't give them Will in their hand, the worst they can do is Tinker -> DSC.  While this is not desirable based on the deck you're playing, there's really no way to prevent it at this point if that's what they have.  If they have virtually anything else, they're going to need to wait on playing it until their mana develops further, giving you more time to climb back into the game.  If they end up using their Force of Will on one of your threats, they're down to only the original contents of their hand plus Brainstorm, which likewise won't become relevant until later on, for the above reasons.

If your opponent chooses Pile 2, their mana development is finished.  However, in giving them only an additional Force of Will, you've effectively deprived them of any other resources, which is unfortunately as good an outcome as you can hope for here.  If they want to Force, they'll need to pitch one of the good cards in their hand, which they probably won't want to do.  This inability to protect their threats should likewise buy you some time, especially if you have additional lands in your hand besides your Daze that you can bluff as control elements.

That's my answer.

[Whatever Works]

if he new you had FoW on top of deck w/counterbalance then his FoW's are usless... hs drain is usless... his brainstorm is usless if you get a top in play down the road... tolarian is usful.

That being said I would seperate piles based on card usfullness to him.

FoW/Brainstorm
FoW/Tolarian/Drain

Giving him both FoW's could bite you later...b/c he would win next counterwar after you draw your FoW...

Based on his game knowledge your piles seem right though, b/c he doesnt know your hand, and you can take advantage of that. Its basically all up to guessing how much gas opponent has left in hand... however w/chalice at 2 i doubt its all that much.

[Dxfiler]

Pile 1:  Mana Drain, Brainstorm, Force of Will
Pile 2:  Force of Will, Tolarian Academy

That's also exactly how I would also do the piles.  Tolarian Academy is the deadliest card, but you can't go four and one, because the combined strength of a two forces and brainstorm will almost certainly beat you.  By giving your opponent the above piles, he could take either one depending on his hand, but neither choice auto crushes you given the information you have posted.

- Dave Feinstein

[Hi-Val]

I think the Brainstorm is the most critical card in the pile. With it, they can undo some of the bad stuff that you put in their hand like Drain. Brainstorm also helps mana development by a lot. Academy doesn't scare me a whole lot-- the opponent will only be getting 2 mana off it, and with Sea Island Ring Ruby, it sounds like they have plenty of mana anyway. The Brainstorm will show another blue source or a mox, so it's going to be about as strong as Academy.

I would split the pile into such a way that my opponent would take the Brainstorm pile but be bummed about it. Probably this includes making it just FOW Brainstorm vs. Academy, Drain, FOW. In either case they have FOW up, but oh well. Playing a UG Fish deck would mean that I would be putting multiple threats out there anyway, so FOW on one doesn't hurt.

In DA's pile, the player takes pile 1, giving them Brainstorm AND FOW with backup, which seems really really wrong.

Am I foolish in not putting value on Academy? It just doesn't seem to give the punch that BS does.

[Liam-K]

Did his first 2 gifts resolve?  If so, are any of the cards you gave him still in his hand?  Making this play correctly depends heavily on how you read him.  Is he out of gas?  This is the critical question.  Since he's already used 2 gifts and you don't mention anything like "oh yeah and I gave him recoup a turn ago, there's the nutz in his yard" what you're worried about here is probably tinker.

The fact of the matter is he wants his next gifts more than he wants enough mana to go off with his next gifts, and he doesn't need more mana to go stupid with any broken sorceries he may be holding.  Hival is correct and brainstorm is a big deal here.  In addition, due to counterbalance he also knows you will be drawing a force of will next turn.  He almost certainly reads you as out of countermagic, since FoF resolved unmolested (right?).  Also, I assume this is your end step?

You have almost no hand, he just resolved a fat draw spell, you have no threats on the board, and he wants to blow past counterbalance before things get really obnoxious.  He's going to want to play aggressively.  If you give him the option of a force for your force (that you're going to draw) and a brainstorm to find gas, he's going to be tempted.  If you offer him a dead card, a force, and some mana, he's going to be thinking "eww" unless he already has a bomb.

If he already has a bomb, he's going to try to play it on his mainphase since he assumes you have no counters.  Since that bomb is unlikely to be a gifts and scroll is chaliced out, it doesn't matter what you give him and he's just facting as bait.  So you make the piles the only way they can possibly matter, assuming he's out of gas.

Mana Drain, Force of Will, Brainstorm is definitely better than Tolarian Academy, Force of will in this situaion. 

You don't really want to give him Academy, Brainstorm as that line of play relies on you getting a draw step before he tries to resolve a bomb.  You also don't want to give him 4 cards.

I expect if you offer him Force, Brainstorm he'll take it over Drain, Force, Academy.  And if he doesn't, he's either out of gas or you've already lost.  If he *is* out of gas and takes the 3, he's playing draw-go and you're at very least even counter wise, which is probably better than him taking the other pile.


Of course, all this assumes he doesn't have a brainstorm in hand.  He has no shuffle effects you can see so 2 brainstorms is almost certainly terrble.  How many brainstorms in the graveyard is also a relevant question.  If he tapped all his U sources to cast FoF that's a tell he doesn't have one, but the reverse is not true.

[Hi-Val]

The other very relevant thing to ask is whether the opp has Colossus in hand. Brainstorm skyrockets if that's the case. If the opponent has Gifted twice and you haven't seen Tinker, you could possibly infer that DSC is in hand and they want to get rid of it.

[Khahan]

I would have no way of knowing if he had colossus in hand and I can't think of any information from the game state which would make me infer that he does.

Neither of his other gifts resolved. I countered them both so he had not done any searching.

[forests failed you]

I agree with Hi Val here.  By far the most important card in that pile is Brainstorm.

The other thing of interest is that if you put Brainstorm in a pile with three cards it allows your opponent to essentially filter for more cards when he casts Brainstorm.  (Since he would have an additional card in hand when casting it.)  I would most likely have divided the cards into the following piles.

Brainstorm
Mana Drain


Force of Will
Tolerian Academy.
Force of Will


I think Liam-K got it pretty much right here.

[Khahan]

Brainstorm
Mana Drain


Force of Will
Tolerian Academy.
Force of Will

This I definitely disagree with, in fact, so far its the only pile I like less than what I gave him.  You give him a dead card (mana drain) and  a way to filter it out and draw 2 other cards.  Or, you give him acceleration (which he needs) and protection.    Maybe if I was sitting on more than just Daze or if I had a wasteland/stripmine on the board I could see this.

 I was banking on getting past1 more turn, having a fow (w/ daze to pitch) in hand and then drawing into something relevant. Not the best plan, but that is why I am here asking questions.

As it turned out, he passed the turn, I drew the force and passed. He went and played Gifts. I forced, he forced. Good game. I didn't realistically expect to have seen 3 gifts by now (about turn 6 or 7) .

[forests failed you]

So he mised and there was actually nothing he could do about it. 

I definately think that the only dangerous card in that pile is the Brainstorm, unless he top decks something dumb.

I would much rather put him into the position where he has to mise to beat you, rather than give him a business spell and something else to go with it.


Also, if he topdecked the Gifts, I don't actually think it matters how you divide the piles as long as he takes a side that has Force of Will he wins the game, because he gets Force of Will and Blue card. 

It could also be correct to put the Academy with the Brainstorm and Mana Drain.  However, he would most likely take the pile of Brainstorm, Mana Drain, and Academy.  And I definately would not want him taking that pile.  I'd rather give him Force Foce Academy, than Brainstorm Drain Academy in your position.

But what do I know, clearly I am noob.

[Khahan]

So he mised and there was actually nothing he could do about it. 

I definately think that the only dangerous card in that pile is the Brainstorm, unless he top decks something dumb.

I would much rather put him into the position where he has to mise to beat you, rather than give him a business spell and something else to go with it.


Also, if he topdecked the Gifts, I don't actually think it matters how you divide the piles as long as he takes a side that has Force of Will he wins the game, because he gets Force of Will and Blue card. 

It could also be correct to put the Academy with the Brainstorm and Mana Drain.  However, he would most likely take the pile of Brainstorm, Mana Drain, and Academy.  And I definately would not want him taking that pile.  I'd rather give him Force Foce Academy, than Brainstorm Drain Academy in your position.

But what do I know, clearly I am noob.

Ok, so I disagreed with you. The sarcastic, 'i'm a noob,' stuff is a bit out of line. Nobody is bashing anybody else. When you get right down to it, I guess the  2 proposed piles I like least are mine and yours.     But then again, I don't necessarily LIKE any of the piles. Its a bad situation for me no matter how you split it. It could have only been worse if he flipped up lotus, will, recoup, timewalk, tinker.

If I had to go with any, I think I'd go w/ Demonic attorney's pile choice.  I understand the concern about brainstorming a DSC back into his library, but honestly, there was nothing at all to make me think DSC would be in his hand.

[Hi-Val]

The whole DSC thing was hinging on whether the previous Gifts had resolved. Since they hadn't, we can eliminate it.

Brainstorm is just more powerful here than Academy, I think. Academy gives them the difference between 5 and 7 mana. Brainstorm gives them the chance to shuffle back DT, Merchant Scroll, Mana Drain or any other 2cc stuff they may have drawn and been cut off from Chalice. I hadn't actually thought about that before but you can bet that their hand has at least 1 2cc spell in it. Brainstorm lets them do some SERIOUS hand optimization. If you give them Drain and BS, then they are just going to shuffle it back. If you put the drain with FOW, then they can just pitch it. Hmm, that IS a sticky wicket. I think you just consign yourself to giving them a FOW here; I'd give FOW Brainstorm because there's the off chance that they'll have to pitch BS. The problem with giving them 2 FOW is that it turns on other dead blue cards in their hand and it gives them the edge in the counter war, because both Daze and Drain have been shut off.

This is a fascinating question.

[forests failed you]

The number one card you don't want them to have is Brainstorm.  Because it can draw them into other possible threats.  While you have the Chalice of the Void in play you seriously hinder their ability to go off.   Since you are playing some kind of UG aggro deck, you will invariably draw threats at some point.  Hopefully before your opponent can mount a good threat.  Because of this fact, you do not want to give them Brainstorm... More than likely, the match will play out with you drawing some beaters and him having to counter them.  Which should lead to your opponent having to burn his counterspells on your irrelevent dudes in a hope to protect his life total.

It worked out unfortunately that your opponent ripped a third Gifts.  Which I believe makes any of the piles irrelevent, since he can just win with FOW backup.

However, I definetly think it is wrong to split the FOWs between piles.  And in that situation I am pretty sure that the card that I least want my opponent to keep is Brainstorm.  Which puts you in a position where you have to give him Brainstorm or Force of Will pile, and give him the incentive to take the Force of Will pile.  It is also possible that you could put the Drain with the FOWs, but I believe my opponent would likely take the pile with Academy and Brainstorm... And I definately wouldn't want to give him that.  If he is taking Force of Will x2, he isn't killing you... all he has are reactive protection spells.  So as long as he doesn't rip the nuts you are fine.   And at that point how many threats does he realisticly have left in his deck???  Tinker, Will, Gifts, ?  I like the odds of you drawing a clock before he draws a threat.

[Khahan]

The more you guys talk about it, the more I see that Brainstorm and not academy is the card I don't want him to have.  I made a mistake w/ my choice of splits. Since none of the options are good, I actually like the suggestion of force/brainstorm and force/academy drain.

Like you said, he needs the brainstorm and if he takes that pile, there is a chance he could have to pitch it. That chance is better than any other options, though still not great.  Luckily for me, he didn't take the best pile (he took FoW x2 and dumped academy and brainstorm). Not lucky for me, it was irrelevant. I believe he actually had the 3rd gifts in his hand and did not draw into it. I think the FoF was probably to bait a counter..or see wht was on top of my library for counterbalance.