5c Stax vs. Uba Stax

[Vegeta2711]

If you want a discussion/reference to how the two decks play out differently, go here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27452.0

So... which deck is better in the current metagame? 5c or Uba? Please don't give me some load about how they play differently and hence 'ZomGF I CNANOT COMPARE TEH POWAR'. 'Cause the hell I can't. I just want to see some reasoning about why one deck is superior to the other (or not).

EDIT: I guess I should add my opinion.

I believe 5c is better, because the bombs it can tutor up are more powerful than anything in the Uba Stax deck, plus it can actually win the game in a timely manner. Pretty simple stuff here. Add to that it's infi customizable for metas, can actually run really good non-artifact lock pieces (Hi Choke!) and it plays Balance and Tinker. <3

Did I mention it runs really good cards vs. crap?

[benthetenor]

To be fair, Uba Stax is more than capable of winning in a timely manner. Vroman has never gone to time in tournament play, and I've only done so in a difficult Stax mirror match at a time when my familiarity with the deck was quite low. Those who cannot complete 3 games in 50 minutes are quite simply playing too slowly.

5c Stax certainly has the more powerful individual cards and has a flexibility, both in it's builds and in tournament play, that Uba Stax quite simply doesn't possess. Uba Stax's cards, while not as potent individually as 5c Stax's, form much more solid locks and have more inherent synergies to be exploited. This gives 5c Stax better top decks, with tons of tutors and a flexible set of silver bullets, and Uba Stax an actual draw engine in Bazaar of Baghdad. The cards are more uniformly powerful in Uba Stax which allows the deck to aim for quantity over quality, whereas 5c Stax has to find the highest quality card possible since the power ranges from Tinker and Balance to...Tangle Wire. That's not to say that the silver bullet strategy isn't a viable one. Far from it. Roland's become World Champion with it, and the 5c Stax archetype has been around for quite a bit longer than Uba Stax.

If I.T. become terribly popular, then 5c Stax is probably the way to go. I.T. was designed to compete in a Stax heavy metagame, and Uba Stax just bends over to it most of the time. I honestly have no idea how 5c Stax does against said deck, and it's probably comparable to Uba Stax, but my gut would say it's slightly less of a butt raping. Other kinds of combo are not a big proplem for Uba Stax, but I'm not sure how badly 5c Stax beats most combo decks, so you'll have to draw your own conclusions.

Both decks need answers to Ichorid, though the best answer is colorless and free. Still, 5c Stax can run a wide variety of hate cards, anything from Honor the Fallen and Morningtide to Haunting Echoes. Even Night Soil, if you wanted to get cute.

Uba Stax is still a beating against a Drain deck, especially a Drain Deck that's not Control Slaver. 5c Stax has sideboard cards to deal with any manner of blue-based control deck, but Uba Stax's (better) abuse of Goblin Welder and Uba Mask both dodge/eliminate the threat of counterspells. In addition, Uba Stax has a draw engine that's unaffected by those counterspells, and Drain based decks seldom run Wastelands.

Against Fish/Aggro decks of any kind, 5c Stax is probably the way to go. Tinker -> Trike/Titan/Karn is just so good.

Oath is probably easier for 5c Stax, again because Tinker -> Duplicant/Jester's Cap answers their whole deck. While Uba Stax does play Dups maindeck, it's often not in enough numbers to ensure seeing him early and often. If I were worried about excessive numbers of Oath, I'd maindeck up to 3 Duplicants, because 5c Stax has access to about 4, should it choose to run it.

In the mirror, it's actually pretty even. The mirror is a war of attrition, with battles over Goblin Welder, Crucible of the Worlds, permanents, and general board position all playing significant roles. If Uba Stax get's a wall of Chalices and some kind of recursive removal early, then it will win. If 5c Stax is given the opportunity to top-deck it's way out, it surely will. Optimal play wins this battle.

So to answer your question, I don't know what the current metagame is. Here in the 'Lou, it's a lot of things. I'm not really sure when the next SCG that we can attend is going to happen, and by the time that that finally happens the metagame may look completely different. I just know that I'm playing my first love, Combo. It's the best choice for an indecisive field.

[vroman]

5c stax as currently constructed, has fundamental problems.
-dissynergy w chalice
-unreliable manabase
-too many non-artifacts

standard 5c stax list of 1 drops looks something like this
4 welder
1-2 monkey
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 vamp
1 ancestral
1 cropper
1-2 plowshares
0-1 i-seal
0-1 fastbond
0-1 sensei top

on average like 14 1cc cards. ubastax plays just 8 (4welder, 2 monkey, 2artifact). and the 1ccs in 5cstax are frequently bombs depended on to survive bad situations. thus, this deck is taking a major risk by laying chalice@1, and will screw itself far more frequently. since chalice@1 is so often a crucial play, 5cstax majorly hinders itself. the only other option is to eliminate chalice from the list like Roland. chalice is so great, free way to neuter moxen on the play, and major headahce at any other number, and in some instances singlehandedly game winning. not running chalice is not a good option.

the mana base is also sub-standard. rainbow lands have significant drawbacks. and the deck likes to play too many colored cards, reducing effectiveness of workshops. this deck is far more vulnerable to wasteland, just in terms of risking color screw.
if anything Id rather pick 3 colors and run fethes+duals to strengthen the manabase.

for me, the debate isnt whether 5cstax is better than uba for the current meta, its whether 5c is an ideal deck period. true, it shows up in t8s often enough, but that just shows raw power of workshop+welder. better builds need to be developed.

[Moxlotus]

too many non-artifacts

I would consider this a pro, not a con.  Uba Stax loses when the opponent sits there and EOT bounces your entire board.  5-color can have lock pieces that aren't affected by this and can still disrupt an opponent.  Choke, S.Field, and ITEOC are examples that can still slow down a Gifts/combo player long enough to replay your artifact locks.