[Premium Article] Prepping for the Vintage Champs

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12553.html

I introduce a new pitch long variant that I didn't have the balls to play, but should have.  I also discuss Pitch Long and other Grim Long variants and compare them.

I also predict the VIntage world metagame, which turns out to be correct. 

[rureddy31]

In a combo heavy metagame, which version do you think is better to run? 5c Pitch Long, or normal Pitch Long?

[FTKzak]

A question regarding your sideboard choice of Orim's Chant..

Since the secondary part of the card (creatures can't attack) is pretty much irrelevant, would Abeyance be a better option? It shuts down all the spells you'd be worried about in the combo mirror, and cantrips on top of that, plus stopping activated abilities - which could be an issue with Memory Jar. Have you tested to see whether the extra colorless compared to chant is too much to spend for an extra card?

[rureddy31]

I would think it is a lot easier to show you have nothing with one mana open, than with two.

[ashiXIII]

A question regarding your sideboard choice of Orim's Chant..

Since the secondary part of the card (creatures can't attack) is pretty much irrelevant, would Abeyance be a better option? It shuts down all the spells you'd be worried about in the combo mirror, and cantrips on top of that, plus stopping activated abilities - which could be an issue with Memory Jar. Have you tested to see whether the extra colorless compared to chant is too much to spend for an extra card?

I haven't tested this at all, but I highly doubt Abeyance stands up to Chant just because it costs more. Chant protects you when you're going off, as well as stopping an opposing combo player from going off for just one little white mana. Chant also shuts down jar MORE effectively than Abeyance does. If you Chant in response, their Jar is gone, and they can't play anything they've drawn. If you try to Abeyance before they break it, they always have the next turn. (And if you respond, you've done nothing Chant couldn't do.)

[Smmenen]

In a combo heavy metagame, which version do you think is better to run? 5c Pitch Long, or normal Pitch Long?

5c Pitch Long, assuming you aren't worried about Stax.

[rureddy31]

Is Pitch Long that much better vs. Stax? I mean Misdirections are essentially dead game 1. Game 2, both decks have good plans vs. Stax.

[Smmenen]

basic lands are better than nonbasics versus stax.   2c pitch long has a better stax match than 5c.  but 5c is better in the combo mirror.

[sean1i0]

In the article you say at one point that Stax may be the only deck with which you feel Grim Long has a bad match up.  Now, I will say that personal experience with the deck led me to the conclusion that Grim Long does have a good matchup versus Stax (because the sideboard seemed to answer anything they could think to throw at you), but that could potentially just be my opponent's familiarity with playing Stax.  So, my question to you is what (approximate) match up have you personally found 5c Pitch Long to have against Stax.  In a related strain of thought, what, again approximate, match up have you found UB Pitch Long to have against the combo mirror?

[rureddy31]

basic lands are better than nonbasics versus stax.   2c pitch long has a better stax match than 5c.  but 5c is better in the combo mirror.

Are Orim's Chants THAT good? Aren't duresses in the combo mirror just as good if not better?

[FTKzak]

basic lands are better than nonbasics versus stax.   2c pitch long has a better stax match than 5c.  but 5c is better in the combo mirror.

Are Orim's Chants THAT good? Aren't duresses in the combo mirror just as good if not better?

With Orim's Chant you get them to invest more cards...so with duress you get rid of a single card at a time, but chant can get them to burn their whole hand. Plus, you need a white card or else it wouldn't be 5c Pitch Long...just 4c 

[ErkBek]

basic lands are better than nonbasics versus stax.   2c pitch long has a better stax match than 5c.  but 5c is better in the combo mirror.

Are Orim's Chants THAT good? Aren't duresses in the combo mirror just as good if not better?

Nope, orim's chant is the best card for the combo mirror. I ran envelop for my combo mirror SB card at Gencon. It was better than duress for sure, but chant > evelop > duress.

[twiggy]

Kobefan, would you ever consider running Disrupt instead of Envelop?

[Smmenen]

In the article you say at one point that Stax may be the only deck with which you feel Grim Long has a bad match up.  Now, I will say that personal experience with the deck led me to the conclusion that Grim Long does have a good matchup versus Stax (because the sideboard seemed to answer anything they could think to throw at you), but that could potentially just be my opponent's familiarity with playing Stax.  So, my question to you is what (approximate) match up have you personally found 5c Pitch Long to have against Stax.  In a related strain of thought, what, again approximate, match up have you found UB Pitch Long to have against the combo mirror?

Re Stax v. G.Long: The matchup is hard not because of the cards so much as the requisite level of skill required.   The slightest misstep and you are toast. 

[Moxlotus]

Kobefan, would you ever consider running Disrupt instead of Envelop?

Disrupt blows in Type 1 since you can almost always count on having an extra mox floating around.  Or you cast a bomb with mana floating.  Envelop counters almost every single business spell in the deck, plus Duress.  Orim's Chant would obviously be better if the manabase allows it.

[Methuselahn]

Well, knowing that the opponent sides Orim's Chant into their Pitch Long deck, why not fall back on Xantid Swarm?  I had ran Chant during one of the Gencon tournies where I played Bomberman and while that's entirely different, it still stops Chant.

[ErkBek]

Well, knowing that the opponent sides Orim's Chant into their Pitch Long deck, why not fall back on Xantid Swarm?  I had ran Chant during one of the Gencon tournies where I played Bomberman and while that's entirely different, it still stops Chant.

Bringing in xantid doesn't do anything but protect your spells, it lets your opponent freely combo. Chant is Misdirectable, so leave those in if you fear chant.

[Smmenen]

basic lands are better than nonbasics versus stax.   2c pitch long has a better stax match than 5c.  but 5c is better in the combo mirror.

Are Orim's Chants THAT good? Aren't duresses in the combo mirror just as good if not better?

I think it is hard to tell.  When I wrote the artile, I straight up thought that Chant would be better.

If your opp. draw7s, you can respond with Chant and jsut pwn them.

The problem, imo, is how Chant interacts with FoW.  It doesn't do enough.   

I honestly believe that Duress and FoW are the two best cards for the combo mirror aside from luck and skill. 

[zeus-online]

I honestly believe that Duress and FoW are the two best cards for the combo mirror aside from luck and skill. 

So luck IS a factor now?

/Zeus

[Smmenen]

I honestly believe that Duress and FoW are the two best cards for the combo mirror aside from luck and skill. 

So luck IS a factor now?

/Zeus

Luck is always a factor.  The important question is: is luck a determinative factor?  IMO, it almost never will be in MATCHES simply because of the vast number of possible play and design choices that could have been made. 

EDIT:
In either case, it is better off to believe that simply because it focuses on our attention on what we could have done instead of over what we have no control over.

[Komatteru]

Elaborate on this

Luck is always a factor.  The important question is: is luck a determinative factor?  IMO, it almost never will be in MATCHES simply because of the vast number of possible play and design choices that could have been made.

in terms of the combo mirror.  Then I'll give you my opinion and we'll see in which exact places they disagree.

[Jacob Orlove]

All of this luck discussion belongs in a separate thread. Please don't continue it here.