[Deck] Non-Bazaar Card Drawing in Dragon

[8pt Monkey Hand]

In putting together Dragon for a tournament, I find myself wondering what should go in the last four slots in my deck. I find myself partial to draw spells, especially spells that have great synergy with Intuition. That means AK or DA. Alternatively, Careful Study provides a discard outlet while digging through the deck. I suppose I should include some copies of Complusion, in case of Bazaar going off-line. I'll post the list and would love to hear thoughts about what belongs in Dragon. Forgive the lack of a sideboard, as my friends and I have yet to get that far into planning.

Dargon

Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen

Combo Engine
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Squee
1 Ambassador Laquatus
4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy

Protection
4 FOW
3 Duress

Tutoring
3 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

[Moxlotus]

I would suggest another kill condition since you lose to Blessing.

Ancestral Recall should be in the deck.

I don't think you can support FoW, since your max blue card count will be 13.

[8pt Monkey Hand]

Whoops, yeah, Ancestral should be in there.

For alternate kill, I was considering Eternal Witness, but I really am not familiar with that kill mechanism.

[Imsomniac101]

I would suggest another kill condition since you lose to Blessing.

Ancestral Recall should be in the deck.

I don't think you can support FoW, since your max blue card count will be 13.

i believe that the current ruling on Laquatas and Blessing is that if you activate Laquatas an infinite number of times, Blessing will end up in the bottom 3,2 or 1. I remember Toad talking about this, in a Dragon thread. French DCI ruling? I think.

[nataz]

I would suggest another kill condition since you lose to Blessing.

Wait, its late.
if you have infiny mana you can just start the mill effect again in resp to the blessing trigger right?
In my mind it looks like this

TOP
etc.
MILL 3
MILL 3
blessing trigger on stack
-hit blessing
BOTTOM

what am I missing?

what you can't do is Brainfreeze/stroke/whatever just once against a blessing, and hope to win with an ancestral.

*edit*

yay, I knew I knew the answer...

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=22723.0

From SCG ask the judge
this came up recently while playtesting sensei sensei

Q: I have Ambassador Laquatus in play and a method of generating arbitrary amounts of mana at will (and untapping creatures at will). My opponent has thirty-nine cards in his library, two of which are Gaea's Blessing and no cards in the grave. Since the milling and reshuffling could go on potentially forever, could I request that a certain three cards (two Blessings and an island) put left in his library and the rest in his graveyard? This would happen eventually anyway, right?

A: Just because it would eventually happen doesn't mean that you can just jump to that state. It's very different than repeating a set of identical actions with identical results (like mana with Rob Dougherty's Verdant Succession deck). This is one you'll have to play out, and take your actions in a timely fashion. I'd probably put a judge on the match to keep you moving along briskly and so your opponent feels confident that you're not stalling. If you run out of time and get to the five extra turns, I'd put you on the clock (five minutes), like we did in the days of TurboZvi.

and for what I was missing, a mill 3 DNE draw a card, therefore eventually the mills will spin down, and the blessing will trigger, unless you play some sort of insta-speed draw spell.

so as an example

you are milling along, and blessing hits the GY w/ 30 cards left.
Blessing Trigger on the stack
IR to the Blessing Trigger, you put 100 Mill 3 on the stack

you pass, they pass, the first mill resolves.
you pass, they pass, the second mill resolves
etc. x 7

0 cards in Library

now can you in response to your 9th Mill Trigger (with zero cards in opponents library, and 91 Mill Triggers + blessing Still on the stack) cast an ancestral recall?

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=19076.0 (more info)

I'm so tired
yay for slowly working through sleep depravation.

[Hydra]

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18265.0

Peter's article on Dragon is VERY detailed on the various card drawing spells that could work in Dragon.  Definitely recommended reading for anyone wanting to play Dragon.

[Tobi]

You play a lot of mana (22). Standard Dragon lists have 19 mana sources. If you cut those off color Moxen and add blue cards you can get to 16 blue cards and FoW becomes playable.

Suggestion:

4 slots open
-3 off-color Moxen
+ Ancestral Recall
+ Time Walk
+ Mystical Tutor
+ 2 Deep Analysis
+ 2 Compulsion

[Glix]

Why would you ever cut moxen?

I would add Recall, Walk, Chain of Vapor, and at least 1 more win for sure.  Personally, I like the Witness kill.  I would also add a Caller of the Claw for winning san-mana.  Also, is there a particular reason that you are running but 2 colors?  Seems like adding at least green would give you more options like Xantid Swarm out of the board.

How the witness kill works, btw:  Mill your library enough so that you have dragon, an animate spell, and a witness in your yard, or have witness in play and dragon in yard.  Then pull off the combo for some mana, then switch your animate target to witness, and bring back an animate spell.  Rereanimate Dragon, and go infinite, not necessarily for mana, but to reclaim your graveyard with witness each revolution, then you can cast recall on your opponant a billion times, decking them, with infinite force backup, and then take infinite time walks by interupting your revolutions, and then make your opponant discard his entire hand with duress, and then animate every other target in your deck.  Well, thats a little overkill, but you get the point.

[dicemanx]

You play a lot of mana (22). Standard Dragon lists have 19 mana sources. If you cut those off color Moxen and add blue cards you can get to 16 blue cards and FoW becomes playable.

Quite a few European lists ran 19 mana sources, but North American builds have typically adhered to 21. There is no "standard" really, but 22 sources is too much. Cutting off color Moxes and dropping to 19 mana is not a plan that particularly excites me in such a fast paced meta - you lose goldfish speed because your premier combo piece - Intuition - might not come online fast enough (you should run 4 Intuition by the way), and you limit the chances of getting the Bazaar turn 1, land mox animate turn 2 starts.

Regarding the second win condition: if you're planning on playing FoW, then Sliver Queen might be a slightly better choice than Witness, especially since Queen makes for a very good alternate reanimation target. However, Witness does have the advantage of winning immediately against Oath or Gifts. Take your pick - the decision isn't really that critical, but you do need at least 2 kill conditions in the deck because any one win condition isn't sufficient against all the decks in the meta (if there was such a win condition with no drawbacks, then I'd certainly only play 1 win condition).

Other random notes:

I don't particularly like Time Walk. The marginal usefulness it provides (additional land drop is the typical gain, if you even have a second land to drop in this land light deck) can be easily offset by the card adversely affecting mulliganing decisions.

A third color (green) might be advisable, but mainly for SB options. This meta requires WGD to run Duresses and FoWs, because many decks can "combo" off about as quickly as WGD can in some cases (barring WGD turn 2 nuts draws). Xantid might be an unaffordable luxury.

The primer lists some good choices for alternate discard engines if you don't want to rely on Bazaar. TfK isn't listed because it isn't as synergistic with the decks components as other options, and it's expensive for a mana light deck. For example, TfK, WGD, and an Animate is not a combo, but Compulsion instead of TfK is.

[UR]

I must say that your list looks a LOT like my list with a few changes, the most important being that you've cut green. That is fine, it is merely a matter of preference (Duress vs. Xantid). Here are some random thoughts;

For what it is worth I would recommend playing FoW even if you are only playing 14 or so blue cards. I hate casting it every time, but I hate losing without it even more and Dragon loses to a lot of cards. Also, don't play Compulsion. Just stick to playing good cards... hardly any deck runs Pithing Needle maindeck and therefore it should only be a sideboard card should you wish to play it anyway. The best I've ever managed to do with that card is remove it to FoW.

I don't particularly like Time Walk. The marginal usefulness it provides (additional land drop is the typical gain, if you even have a second land to drop in this land light deck) can be easily offset by the card adversely affecting mulliganing decisions.

I agree on the Time Walk. It is useful sometimes, but not all that hot overall. Just another blue card sometimes (although you could potentially use it as a kill condition if you are running Eternal Witness by taking infinite turns and swinging with the Witness).

I always like playing maindeck bounce, it is up to you whether you like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth better. I always run Chain of Vapor because it dodges Chalice for two (that is what Stax will try to do).

Where is the Sol Ring? Do you think it is too slow?

BTW, I don't know your metagame, but you should cut two Animate Dead and replace them with Dance of the Dead for Meddling Mage purposes. Fish can ruin your day like that.

[8pt Monkey Hand]

The Meddling Mage problem is a good point.

I believe I've really settled on DA. Three copies means I can Intuition for some card-drawing or have plenty to pitch to Bazaar. A second Lim-Dul's Vault gives me deck manipulation and something to pitch to FOW.

I don't want to cut off-color moxen. They're there for the crazy, second-turn win hands.

Dargon

Manabase
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen

Engine
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Eternal Witness
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

Protection
4 Force of Will
3 Duress

Tutoring
3 Intuition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Deep Analysis

EDIT: Alternatively, a Vault and a DA can be repalced with a Chain of Vapor and possibly Mystical Tutor.

[about,blank]

Engine
4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Worldgorger Dragon
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Eternal Witness
2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
3 Necromancy

Maybe I'm missing something here but Eternal Witness is not in itself a win condition. You need something for it to return, like a Drain Life or something to that extent.

I think you should also consider Spoils or Demonic Consultation because they are both really good spells. Only draw back is that you might just kill yourself off Spoils or remove 4 Dragons with Consultation.

[UR]

How about recurring Ancestral Recall 

[Purple Hat]

you don't need 3 DA's to intuition for it since you'd much rather flash it back than cast it, if you're gonna play it I think you should replace one with the 3rd vault.  Also Sliver Queen might be a better alternate kill condition as it allows you to go the aggro route if the situation calls for it, 6/7's that make lots of little buddies are pretty sweet for the beatdown plan.  It also pitches to force.

[TurbulentDirge]

Another possible option for Dragon would be Coliseum. It essentially does the same thing as Bazaar, albeit only once, and it has synergy with other cards in the deck.

Comments?
-DL

[dicemanx]

Another possible option for Dragon would be Coliseum. It essentially does the same thing as Bazaar, albeit only once, and it has synergy with other cards in the deck.

Comments?
-DL

Threshhold is hard to achieve with this deck in the early going, because you're not casting very many instant/sorcery spells, and you don't want to over-Bazaar either. But there's another issue - if Colisseum is relied upon because bazaar is not found or is Wasted/Needled, then you still cannot win off the Colisseum unless you have Intuition in hand or could discard the win condition. It's sort of like Entomb: game winning on occasion, but Entomb + Animate = not a combo most of the time.

[Toad]

i believe that the current ruling on Laquatas and Blessing is that if you activate Laquatas an infinite number of times, Blessing will end up in the bottom 3,2 or 1. I remember Toad talking about this, in a Dragon thread. French DCI ruling? I think.

I actually said the very opposite. You cannot mill and declare that the opponent's deck will at some point have Blessing in the bottom 3. You have to get into that situation on your own, which will often make you fall under Slow Play.

[Metman]

I have a good friend that plays quite a lot with Dragon.  We worked together after a disasterous tourny finish to make Dragon stronger.  Like you have done we've added the DA and decided to play FoW.  This is exactly the conclusion we've come up with.  Except we upped the DA count to 4 and cut the Squees.  It sounds weird cutting Squee with Bazaars but it makes Intuition that much better and it creates less reliance on the Bazaar.  This also makes room for enough disruption to make Dragon a very resiliant, consistant, and tough on other combo decks, which is it's toughest matchup. 

I would definately add another kill condition other than the Merfolk.  I would keep it simple and play Caller of the Claw or Sliver Queen.  It's one turn slower but it can be animated too.