Master of The Vise

[netherspirit]

Here's a little something i literally just this minute came up with, dunno if it'd be any good but it looks kinda cool.

Master of The Vise

2UU

?/4

Flying
Whenever Master of The Vise deals combat damage to a player each player must return x permanents they control from play to their hands, where x is Master of The Vise's power. Master of the Vise gets +1/+0 for each card in your hand. At the beginning of each players upkeep they take 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of 4. If Master of the Vise attacks you can not play any more spells this turn.

I'm not sure how it is on power level, seems kinda fun though

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Master of the Vise
2UU
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise gets +1/+0 for each card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
If Master of the Vise attacks, you can't play spells until end of turn.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
0/4

So really, you want a mit of four and keep casting draw spells on your opponent.. and either not swing often, or swing all the time. There's a question of how many of these you want in play at a time, too. I think I might even cost it less than four, since it bounces everyone's permanents AND stops you from replaying spells. Harsh drawback for an x/4 flyer.

[netherspirit]

maybe i could lose the spell stopping ability, now i come to think about it that is probably too harsh a draw back

[Matt]

This is far too complicated.

[netherspirit]

This is far too complicated.

Lol, it sounded alot simpler in my head

[Matt]

This has like six abilities. You need to cut it down to two at most, and they need to be in-color - blue does NOT get Black Vise effects (or any damage at all, really).

[netherspirit]

blue does NOT get Black Vise effects (or any damage at all, really).

well yeah, but every so often a card has to break an occasional boundary

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Master of the Vise
2UU
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise gets +1/+0 for each card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
If Master of the Vise attacks, you can't play spells until end of turn.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
0/4

Right.. so if we lose the spell-stopping ability, I can actually see it seeing play. Try this on for size:

Master of the Vise
2UU
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise gets +1/+0 for each card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
0/4

So what happens? You now have a four-toughness flyer for four mana in blue. You play a bunch of cheap cards so that you can re-drop most of your hand when you need to. You want your hand full after your upkeep and as empty as you can get it after your opponent's combat phase. Sounds a lot more playable to me. Probably for a more aggressive deck, perhaps Green/Blue like a Madness deck. And of course you don't mind taking a little damage as long as your opponent dies first Although it feels a little more black - the Nim-like ability rings a bell. Perhaps 2UB, like Moroii?

[netherspirit]

Although it feels a little more black - the Nim-like ability rings a bell. Perhaps 2UB, like Moroii?

hmm, maybe, but then would adding a second colour mean you'd have to reduce the casting cost? i know it isnt quite in blues flavour, but it seems to be fairly playable and lets face it, black vise works best with blue, so a creature that bounces and has the vise ability isnt really too much out of flavour.

[Matt]

Although it feels a little more black - the Nim-like ability rings a bell. Perhaps 2UB, like Moroii?

hmm, maybe, but then would adding a second colour mean you'd have to reduce the casting cost? i know it isnt quite in blues flavour, but it seems to be fairly playable and lets face it, black vise works best with blue, so a creature that bounces and has the vise ability isnt really too much out of flavour.

Wow, that is incredibly wrong. You really need to read up on the color pie and think long and hard why it would be bad to give blue this kind of ability.

[Anusien]

I could see you making it with either the first or the last ability, but not both.  The first would be a Maro type creature, and the last would be blue.

[dandan]

This stops you casting spells - if you are daft! You can still cast spells on your opponent's turn and on your turn before you attack.

I agree this is overcomplicated. Tagging the Black Vise ability onto a normal creature is fine by me. You could make it hit all players (unlike Vise). The ability seems UB or RB to me (seeing as RB is Hellbent on seeing empty hands).

The other ability(ies) could happily go on a Minion of the Vise. (Maro of the Vise!)

[netherspirit]

Tagging the Black Vise ability onto a normal creature is fine by me. You could make it hit all players (unlike Vise). The ability seems UB or RB to me (seeing as RB is Hellbent on seeing empty hands).

The other ability(ies) could happily go on a Minion of the Vise. (Maro of the Vise!)

Right, so do you think maybe turning this into two less complicated creatures that add up to a similar effect would be a good way to go?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

This stops you casting spells - if you are daft! You can still cast spells on your opponent's turn and on your turn before you attack.

He's agreed to drop the spellcasting restriction It seems a lil like overkill anyways.

I agree this is overcomplicated. Tagging the Black Vise ability onto a normal creature is fine by me. You could make it hit all players (unlike Vise). The ability seems UB or RB to me (seeing as RB is Hellbent on seeing empty hands).

Which is why I suggested Moroii's cost. Blue hasn't got direct damage (as far as I can recall) since 7E when they last reprinted [card]Prodigal Sorcerer[/card]. Black likes to have its opponents have smaller hands - and what better way than to make sure your opponent gets hurt for having too many?

The other ability(ies) could happily go on a Minion of the Vise. (Maro of the Vise!)

Heh.. cute. Although as UB I'm sure it would get along well together. Try this on for size:

Master of the Vise
2UB
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise gets +1/+0 for each card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
0/4

Whatcha think?

[netherspirit]

WOW!!!! Exactly the sorta thing i've been trying to get to, i love it!!!!!
Thanks for the help!!!! *does little celebration dance*  :lol:
Creature type, name, and flavor text though.
I'm fine with the creature type, although maybe it should be a vampire? Or even a vampire djinn?  :lol:
But the name is kinda cheesy and i don't know if flavor text would even fit on it....

[Harlequin]

A minor point of templateing:

Master of the Vise
2UB
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise has power equal to the number of card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
*/4


I think that is how they are still wording these types of card.  Its easier to understand that his power changes at the exact moment as your hand size changes.  Both wordings are acceptable, but I think this wording is more standardly used.

Also I think this card would be a bit more fair if it was one of those deal damage OR return cards.  As in:

Whenever Master of the Vise attacks and is unblocked you may choose to have Master of the Vise deal no combat damage instead, If you do each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.

I think that way, you still get your point across without him tripple screwing someone (combat damage + bounce a ton of cards + take a ton of damage durring thier upkeep). 

[Mindstab_Thrull]

netherspirit: Could be worse. Remember we already have Rackling and Viseling..

I think the two best-known Djinn are black and blue (one each: Juzam and Mahamoti), both known for being big beatsticks, and typically Djinn fly. You don't really see much in the way of nonblack Vampires, however, Mistform Ultimus notwithstanding. As for the name - it's up to you, of course; I just took what you gave me and ran with it And of course, this could be one of those fun cards that has only one or two words for flavour text ('Mine.' and 'Heel.' come to mind as examples).

[netherspirit]

Right, so here it is then

Master of the Vise
2UB
Creature - Djinn
Flying
Master of the Vise has power equal to the number of card in your hand.
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, he or she takes 1 damage for each card in hand in excess of four.
Whenever Master of the Vise deals combat damage to a player, each player must return X permanents they control to their owners' hands, where X is Master of the Vise's power.
*/4
"Squirm!!"

Everyone fine with that?

[Matt]

It's still really complicated. Why does this bounce AND Vise AND Maro AND fly? This shouldn't be an all-in-one creature, you should have to combine this with something else. Right now it's a one-card Prison deck. The mass bounce in particular is pretty overpowered.

[netherspirit]

Right, how would you go about it then? To be honest i don't think it's particularly complicated, but each to their own. Lets assume you were to break it down into two or more cards would you put each ability on a seperate card or maybe give one of them two abilities? Would raising the mana cost be a good way to improve this or maybe even take away flying?
I can see that taking flying away would make this a bit fairer, and an increased mana cost may help.

[Matt]

First, there's no reason to make it Maro-sized damage AND mass-bouncing (AND Vise damage, too! Your version effectively has double strike!). One hit and you ruin the opponent's board, and if you're able to keep Master on the table you now have like an 8/4 while your opponent has like one land (and will be taking Vise damage too). That's way too good.

I would just axe the vise effect entirely, which lets you make it blue again. A mass-bouncing creature is good enough on its own, the same card doesn't need to kick them when they're down.

Upheaval Djinn
3UU
Creature -- Djinn
2/4
Flying
Whenever Master of the Vise attacks and is not blocked, each player returns X permanents he or she controls to their owners' hands, where X is the number of cards in your hand.


Now it's evasive, and has a very powerful board-controlling effect, without pumping out huge bursts of damage (a VERY nonblue thing to do) like the Maro and Vise effects did. That's what I would want to make to keep the mass-bounce effect. However, if you want to keep the Vise effect:

Vise Djinn
3R
Creature -- Djinn
2/4
Haste
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, Vise Djinn deals X damage to that player, where X is the number of cards greater than four in his or her hand.

Since the combo is now two cards and in two colors, it's okay to have the ability be Vise and not Storm World.

You could even make both cards, if you like.

[netherspirit]

Wow, thats good, what about flavor text?

For the Upheaval Djinn i was thinking something like
"When such power is unleashed, even the ground itself flees in fear"

And for Vise Djinn:
"The flames of its rage burn you slowly...from the inside out"

What dya think?

[Matt]

By the way, those names are just placeholders.

[netherspirit]

I'm going to sound like such a moron for saying this, but i dunno what a placeholder is  :lol: If it's what i think you mean then yeah i know

[Mindstab_Thrull]

netherspirit: It takes the place of something else - such as using ~ instead of the card's name.

Matt: why not an idea like this:
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, for each card in his or her hand greater than four, that player may discard that card unless he or she has ~ deal 1 damage to that player.

.. I went through about four or five drafts and I still can't get it quite right.. but basically you can 'prevent' damage by discarding a card.

[netherspirit]

netherspirit: It takes the place of something else - such as using ~ instead of the card's name.

Lol, thought so. I like that discard idea, it makes it alot more fair, keep it as one creature if that's added or make it two?

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Well, as Matt suggested, it's a lot of abilities to put on one card -- although is it just me, or does blue seem to get the dragon's share of complex cards? If it was done this way, however, it would have to be black/blue - Recoil comes to mind in lieu of Boomerang

[netherspirit]

Recoil comes to mind in lieu of Boomerang 

You mean give it a recoil ability?! If that's what you mean, well, yeah i love it, but then agen if you can drop your opponent's hand before this gets going you'll just have complete board control. That's pure evil..... 

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Well, I more meant the fact that you'll be bouncing permanents, and on their upkeep they can prevent damage by the Vise part by ditching cards - which Recoil split into two parts. Remember, both sides take Vise damage on this too. I'm thinking this should probably cost more like 5-6 mana for what it does, and probably STILL be Legendary at that

[netherspirit]

Ah, lol, i get what you mean now. I thought it sounded a bit too powerful. So what exactly would you have for the ability then?