[Deck] URWana Fish

[Bongo]

URW Fish is a Fish variant that hasn't been discussed very much.
It is able to do roughly the same as UW Fish, with the added benefit of the red splash. However, three color manabase + Factory/Waste were causing a lot of mulligans and manascrew. Hence, I omitted Mishras Factory. Standstill wasn't very good without Factory, so I added another draw-engine that is not Factory dependent. The decklist:


Creatures 15
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Meddling Mage
2 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Draw 9
4 Brainstorm
3 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush

Utility 7
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk

Counters 9
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle

Mana 20
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

Red offers a lot of options.
Grim Lavamancer is very good against Dark Confidant, other Fish creatures, Goblin Welder and a plethora of other creatures. It's certainly miles better than the 1-drops UW Fish runs. Grim enables Curiosity as a draw engine, since it either removes blockers or is enchanted with Curiosity itself. I like this draw-engine more than Standstill, since it costs only half as much and can't be played around. Additionally, it allows you to run Brainstorm.
Gorilla Shaman complemented the mana-denial nicely and can be used for early Ninja action.
Waterfront Bouncer may seem a bit strange, but it is useful against Oath and another solution to DSC.


- What can be improved in the maindeck?

- What can be included in the sideboard?

[chrissss]

I myself am a big fan of fire//ice, and I gues you could include that in your deck, although I am not sure what to exclude.

Iwould definately sideboard some anti artifact/enchantment cards. something against oath, something against cs,and also maybe some more against tendrils.

for the rest it looks good.

 *steals idea*

[Metman]

I've been testing with UWR Fish deck for a couple of months now with mixed results.  It really depends on your metagame, but Fish is such a flexible deck that it can make easy adjustments including sideboard changes.  The list I've been tinkering with is similar but varied slightly.  I really like the Grim/Curiosity synergy.  It owns Welders and other fish.  Since UW is in there I definately opted to keep MM and thought to myself, "that's already eight wizards, why not run some VMProdigies?"  I tossed three in there and love 'em.  They mean I can keep my actual counterspell threat down since these counters can only be stopped by Stifle.  I tested the Waterfront Bouncer and found him to be too mana hungry.  Fish survives off very little and usually taps out every turn.  I put Extract in the SB in case I really missed the effect though.  I figured I would need at least three more creatures and couldn't decide what to run.  I had the Shamans in one hand and Katakis in the other.  I settle on the Katakis since they help out the WSAggro matchup a little better.  Shamans in the side in case I see Combo or Stax. 

I'm not sure how you do it; how do you survive with only 20 mana sources?  I find the deck so mana hungry I had to up mine to 23.  I found that a single Wasteland would often keep white or red mana off the board long enough to ruin the game. Gush seems like a cute trick to help that out but never showed up often enough to make it worth the slot.  I found that I would rather just play a spell than draw a couple.   

I built my version to be budget but to beat power.  Here's my list...

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Meddling Mage
3 Kataki, Wars Wage
3 Voidmage Prodigy

Draw/Search
4 Impulse
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Curiosity

Utility
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rack and Ruin

Counters
4 Force of Will
2 Stifle
1 Misdirection

Mana
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains

The last slot changes so much that I haven't decided what I would default to. 

My sideboard varies a lot too.  If I expect Oath or other huge creatures than I side Stormscape Apprentice and Annul.  They are great plus a wizard in my case.  Rack and Ruin and Gorrilla Shamans are musts cuz WSAggro smothers this deck.  I usually put more bounce in the SB too, it's generic but it solves many problems.  The additional Swords too. 

The biggest problem with this deck are decks that run creatures that are bigger than 2 toughness.  This is especially true if they run many of them.  Darksteels, Angels, Juggernauts...oh my.

[bebe]

Try  maindecking a few gilded drakes for the larger creatures. There is a build that uses three waterfront bouncers and three gilded drakes main deck running aroound - but you could just side in a few when needed.

[Rittler]

Well, I think your build is far from perfect...

- Where are the Ninja's??? They are such a great draw-engine, you never want to miss it in fish
- Gorilla Shaman should definately be maindecked since it serves the mana-denial plan much better than Kataki
- You MUST play either Vial+Chalice or Null Rod to survive in today's meta!
- What is the Mystical Tutor for?
- Why Impule instead of Brainstorm? You say your deck is mana-hungry, so why include a card for 1U instead of a card for U?
- Why Misdirection instead of a 3rd Stifle or Remand or Daze etc. ? In fish it's absolutely not better than those
- Why so many 1-of's in a deck with (nearly) no tutors? You won't draw'em when you need'em, so just leave'em and play either Rod or Chalice

So I would propose something like this:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Meddling Mage
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Draw/Search
4 Brainstorm
3 Curiosity

Utility
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Null Rod

Counters
4 Force of Will
2 Daze

Mana
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Plains

It supports the fish-plan much better and is not filled with 1of's you won't draw anyways...
This build only contains 6 Counterspells, but the VMP should give you enough backup, since you now have a great drawengine with Curiosity, Brainstorm and Ninjas

[Scoops666]

@ Rittler:

I assume you didn't include Ancestral because of a no proxy environment...which is totally understandable. For proxy environments, I'd go -1 Null Rod, +1 Ancestral Recall. And I'd really want to find room for 3 Fire/Ice, but it looks tight.

[Bongo]

The biggest problem with this deck are decks that run creatures that are bigger than 2 toughness.  This is especially true if they run many of them.  Darksteels, Angels, Juggernauts...oh my.

That's why I run Waterfront Bouncer.
In addition of taking care of big creatures, Bouncer also "saves" my own creatures, gives you advantage in creature-combat and "resets" Meddling Mage if needed.

Voidmage sounds nice in theory, but in practice, the problem with Voidmage is that it forces you to run more mana-fonts, thereby reducing the number of counters and utility. Rarely has Fish enough mana to keep 2 blue mana open during the opponents turn. Wasteland on an open blue source also renders its ability moot. Voidmage is good in the lategame, but it is questionable if it ever comes to that.


Now, for the sideboard:

4 REB
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Null Rod
1 Stifle
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Fire/Ice
2 Disenchant

I'm playing in the following metagame, the first being played the most and the last being played the least:

1) Fish in all forms, mainly UW and UG
2) Combo
3) Mana Drain decks
4) Oath
5) Goblins, other random aggro

Is there something I missed?

[Rittler]

@ Rittler:

I assume you didn't include Ancestral because of a no proxy environment...which is totally understandable. For proxy environments, I'd go -1 Null Rod, +1 Ancestral Recall. And I'd really want to find room for 3 Fire/Ice, but it looks tight.

I didn't include it, because in his list there wasn't any either, so I thought he wouldn't have any. If he has one he definately should include it, but I think it shouldn't be the Null Rod which is cut, because this is a card you want to see EVERY game, perhaps a Curiosity could make room for it. Fire/Ice is a strong card, but I think we won't find any room for it in the maindeck, since it's also a bit of a conditional card - if playing against combo it won't do anything big - so I guess the sideboard is the right place for this to come in against other fishy and aggroish decks.

[chrissss]

can a deck like this really compete in T1 tournaments?

its no offence, it just looks les dangerous than other decks I see here.

I could make this deck except for a few cards, so if this is really a great deck, I might make my own version of it.

[merfolkOTPT]

Has anyone tried building the chalice/vial/jitte version of UWR fish or is it to many cards to fit in.  IN U/W testing the jitte version can be good, but chalice is good only on the play.  Further vial can absolutely win games with meddling mage.  In response to a tutor for will, or a gifts ungiven stack you name the card they need to go off. It is just a beating.  Just my $.o2 .

[M.Solymossy]

UWR isn't a very good call.  The reason URBana fish did so well was because of the insanity that Bob Mahr produces.    The deck, much like my team's oath build, mixes proactive control with reactive.   Duress and chalice.  White has no proactive control or disruption, just reactive.  You also lose to SSSwallower when StP can't hit it.

[merfolkOTPT]

I think Meddling Mage would be considered proactive, though the examples I mentioned were not he definately is.  Further, what does URB fish do to SSSwallower either? 
That being said i agree this is not an optimal build in any way shape or form. We are not using the knowledge garnered byt the URB build nor do we have good answers at all for Oath. 

Things to consider for Oath: SB Extract to remove SSSwallower.  Also we need to keep Oath itself of the board, so the annul SB or main is important.  Maindeck annul could help with a mana denial plan but is it good enough?

I really think we should look at the chalice/moxen/shaman plan that URB uses this will help us in the mana denial department and as earlier said allows for the broken use of Aether Vial. 

[Scoops666]

Further, what does URB fish do to SSSwallower either? 

Diabolic Edict.

[Bongo]

UWR isn't a very good call.  The reason URBana fish did so well was because of the insanity that Bob Mahr produces.    The deck, much like my team's oath build, mixes proactive control with reactive.   Duress and chalice.  White has no proactive control or disruption, just reactive.  You also lose to SSSwallower when StP can't hit it.

Could you please elaborate your reasoning as to why your disruption base is better? This "proactive/reactive control" thing is very vague.

I know Bob is very good, but it's not like URW doesn't draw any cards. Brainstorm, Curiosity and Ninja give me card advantage and quality. Meddling Mage is one of the strongest creatures fish has (it's even "proactive") .

Chalice was suboptimal when not drawn on the first turn and can't be effectively set at 1. Null Rod however is a beating whenever it hits the table.
I consider counters to be superior than discard, since your opponent has to invest mana in the played card.
While Diabolic Edict is certainly a solution to SSS, I haven't seen it sideboarded in URBana Fish either.

That being said i agree this is not an optimal build in any way shape or form. We are not using the knowledge garnered byt the URB build nor do we have good answers at all for Oath.

What is that essential knowledge you speak of? How can we improve this build close to an optimal state, with good answers against Oath? Extract and Disenchant from the board?

[merfolkOTPT]

Chalice was suboptimal when not drawn on the first turn and can't be effectively set at 1

What is that essential knowledge you speak of? How can we improve this build close to an optimal state, with good answers against Oath? Extract and Disenchant from the board?

These two ideas are intrisically linked. Part of the power of URB is the 5 moxen/chalice/gorrilla shaman hate build.  This allows for you to put your moxen (hopefully one or two) then playing chalice and even on the draw being able to deal with opponents moxen via shaman.

I think annul out of the board also can help against oath, this loses a lot of value on the draw however.
Let's walk through the worst (reasonable) case vs Oath they have: Mox, Orchard, 0ath and a Fow in hand what do we do: 
-If we have FoW,D/E, white land and mox we can answer on the draw.(this seems like it unless you have Lotus).
-Extract is good on the play if we have 2, or 1 and an Stp and they only have one SSS.
-On the play we could also have annul and fow, or if we have a moxen mana leak and fow, two annuls or any draw solution.

Other options might be spawning pit or blasting station.

We seemingly have options but this takes up a lot of SB options something like:
3-4x Extract
1-2x Stp with the rest in main
3-4x annul or D/E

So in summation i think the hate package that we should consider is 5 moxen/chalice/gorilla shaman.  If we want to win the Oath matchup we have to dedicate a large amount of SB hate, but i think it can be won.

Things that should be explored are a build with that hate package and maybe aether vial.  I don't have the means to test accept on Apprentice so if anyone is willing to help me test please PM me.

EDIT: I think i may have been wrong about mana base construction the list i ended up with after a little testing is as follows:
Mana (23)
3x Wasteland
1x Stripmine
3x On color moxen
4x Flooded Strand
4x Volcanic
4x Tundra
3x Mishra's factory
1x Black Lotus

Creatures (16)
4x Meddling mage
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Waterfront Bouncer
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Spiketail Hatchling
Disruption(13)
3x CotV
4x Fow
3x Stp
3x Mana Leak

Other stuff(8)
3x Standstill (seems like a better draw spell then curiousity with this build)
3x Aether vial (for tricks and ninja stuff usually set to 2).
1x Timewalk
1x Ancestral recall

SB
1x Stp
4x REB
3x Annul
3x Seal of Cleansing (i like this better then d/e even though sorcery speed because it makes them find a bounce spell first and you have more time to find counters).
2x Kataki
2x Stifle


So please comment on this build and send PM if you want to test.
Edit 2 -1 Chalice -1 wasteland +1 black lotus.
Edit 3 -3 grim lavamancer +3 spiketail hatchling.

[Bongo]

This new version now incorporates the Chalice/Shaman disruption suite.
Like in Beckers version, I think 3 Chalice is the right number.

Creatures 15
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Meddling Mage
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Draw 6
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush

Utility 8
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Time Walk

Counters 9
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle

Mana 22
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

side:
4 REB
3 Tormods Crypt
1 Stifle
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Fire/Ice
3 Disenchant

Although there are no Curiosities anymore, I think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ninjas, 1 Ancestral and 1 Gush should be enough.

What do you think of this build? What can be improved?

[merfolkOTPT]

I don't know if gush is a good call here, the Acc can hurt us a little bit.  Also if you want to try and win the Oath matchup we need to change SB a little bit.  3 D/E and 4 Stp won't do it alone.  Also when do you bring in Fire/Ice?
 I think you need to main deck either bouncer (which is good anyway) or Stormscape apprentice.  Lastly, do you think that you have good ninja enablers? I question because without factory you basically will only want to ever use Gorilla shaman to ninjitsu out ninja and he already has a big target on his head, though i might be mistaken.

[The Chosen One]

Pyroblast is IMO a better choice than reb in the sideboard. Since it does not have to target a blue spell in order to be cast, it can provide valuable mancer food when needed

[Vegeta2711]

Shaman isn't very good, Chalcie isn't very good ESPECIALLY as a 3-of and Lavamancer hasn't been good for a year. Brainstorm is also ass in that sort of build, because you have so few threats and Brainstorm doesn't actually gain you anything, even if your using the whole 'fetch shuffle' excuse to justify it.

4 Ninja's in a deck with only 11 other creatures and 15 total is just terrible. You need at least 15-16 creatures that aren't Ninja to even be worthwhile. Vial is also a major plus for the Ninja builds that you lack, being able to immediately drop whatever creature you returned negates the tempo loss I mentioned. It essentially eliminates half of the drawback of Ninja (Those two being: Needing a guy to attack and the cost of recasting the man).

4 Swords is pointless. Run Fire/Ice or Electolyze if you care about stopping any non-DSC guys. If you care about DSC, run Hide/Seek and just run 1-2 Black producing lands to use the secondary ability, with a 7-8 fetch base it's doable. Bob and Hide / Seek at the best (And probably only) reasons I've seen to go over 2 colors in a Fish deck.

[merfolkOTPT]

Guys the oracle wording of REB and Pyroblast are the exact same they both read as follows:

Choose one — Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.

.

As far as vegeta is concerned there is a URB thread going already on the Vintage Open forum.  You do make a good point, however, about not using aether vial if we are using ninja this is very important and we should be running 3x mishra's factory in the build to help make ninja work.

The chalice idea is incorrect, however, URB has been putting up decent results and they only play 3 Chalice.

 Another card we might consider here is rack and ruin what do people think SB definate possibility, what about 1-2 main?  Also do we need main deck bounce besides waterfront bouncer??

Also, in reponse to vegeta what should be run in the place of grim, should we run Cloud of Faeries or spiketail hatchling to better enable ninja and do vial tricks?

 Lastly, Hide/Seek is an amazing card but should we leave it to URB ot try to splash into it??

[The Chosen One]

Guys the oracle wording of REB and Pyroblast are the exact same they both read as follows:

Choose one � Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.

.

incorrect. Pyroblast says counter target spell (if) it is blue, or destroy target permanent (if) it is blue... It can target lands if you want, reb cannot. Check the gatherer on magicthegathering.com for proper oracle texts

[merfolkOTPT]

I stand corrected, apparently starcitygames.com doesn't have correct Oracle wording .  Someone should let them know.

In other news, i am dropping the grim lavamancer's from my build for spiketail hatchlings.

Is mana leak optimal as a counter here?
Also, which is better stormscape apprentice or waterfront bouncer?

[Dante]

I stand corrected, apparently starcitygames.com doesn't have correct Oracle wording .  Someone should let them know.

Actually, the oracle text at SCG for pyroblast looks fine to me.  Remember - SCG lists the "card text", which is what is printed on the card, and the "oracle text".  See below.

Card text:  Counter target spell if it is blue, or destroy target permanent if it is blue.
(If this spell targets a permanent, play it as an instant.)

Oracle text: Choose one — Counter target spell if it’s blue; or destroy target permanent if it’s blue.

Those are pasted from SCG and are the correct text.