Jester's Cap in Slaver

[magus888]

I've been playtesting Cap in Slaver for the past week or two, and I've really come to like the card. The deck has the mana for it, welders, and it can be tinkered.

Cap deals with the mirror match, tendrils, gifts, and oath.

Has anyone else ever tested Cap in Slaver? If so, what did you think?

[Roxas]

No.

Against all three decks you mention that it "beats" - the mirror match, Tendrils, and Oath - you should easily be able to win anyway if you are in a position in which you can both resolve a four-mana spell and pay its two-mana activation cost.  There are far, far better artifacts to Tinker for, too. 

[Hi-Val]

If you can afford to lay a Cap out, you can afford to lay a Slaver out and win handily. Whenever I think of Cap, I have to ask whether Slaver is better, and it usually is.

[roberts91rom]

Maybe you are getting Gifts confused with Slaver. In CS I would consider it as a one-of maindeck because of it's power and synergy with the overall strategy of CS.

In Gifts, no. Just no

[magus888]

Maybe you are getting Gifts confused with Slaver. In CS I would consider it as a one-of maindeck because of it's power and synergy with the overall strategy of CS.

In Gifts, no. Just no

Holy crap! Did I say Gifts?  :shock: I feel like a fool. I'm editing the post right now. (This is what lack of sleep will do to you!)

[magus888]

Now that everything's corrected, what are your opinions?

[Metman]

I playtested Cap in CS for a while.  I ended up moving it to my SB and eventually it got weeded out of there too.  It is a great card once it resolves and is activated but I would always ask myself the question, "is this doing me more good than Mindslaver?"  The answer is 95% of the time, "no."  When I run 4 big artifacts in the MD of CS I would rather have 2 Mindslavers and 2 others than 1 Mindslaver 1 cap and two others.  It may warrant inclusion in some SBs but still, when is it better than MS?  The only time Cap may be better is against Oath or Fish and then I still think there are better solutions.

[Grand Inquisitor]

If Gifts maintains it's popularity post-vault, then this is a serious threat at least out of the sideboard.  If you're meta is particularly thick on gifts, combo and oath, I think it's a fine choice.

If you can afford to lay a Cap out, you can afford to lay a Slaver out

I don't understand this statement at all.  Especially when hardcasting a single cap activation has a good chance of having a larger impact on the game than a single slaver activation.  And 6 mana is obviously a lot less than 10 mana.

[Evenpence]

A few reasons why Jester's Cap is REALLY bad in Slaver, IMO.

Cap is a card that you want to see in the early game.  Slaver is a card you want to see in the mid to late game.

In order to see Cap in the early game, you need to run it in multiples.  This is bad for many reasons.

Cap is run in multiples in The Jester (Or Modern Ubastax, for those of you who don't want to give Yespuhyren credit/praise/respect or whatever) because:

1)  We don't have tutors.
2)  We rely on card drawing and synergy between bazaar/welder.
3)  We don't want the game to go to the mid or late game, Slaver does.

Tinker is the only card that you would ever want to use to "tutor" for Cap, as all your other tutors always get something better, as something is always more needed.

[warble]

I cut Jester's Cap from my Sideboard in Control Slaver approximately a year ago.  My reasons are:

1)  In the matches you mention, it is often times a war of card advantage and threat countering.  That means I can't sideboard out my welders, my threats, my draw power or my counterspells.  I'm really tuning my deck to work with less mana, and at a faster pace.  Jester's Cap does not allow me to do that because it DOES NOT win the game.

2)  Jester's Cap is not an instant and clutters up the control matchup.  I cannot afford to get Jester's Cap mana drained because it will feed two thrist for knowledge or even worse a lethal will.  Being 4 mana versus 6 mana is relevant, but since you aren't taking out Mindslaver all of a sudden it is NOT relevant.  You're adding in more fat artifacts but you can't actually remove any artifacts for it.

3)  If I need to sideboard in artifact hate (which I do in many control matchups) that takes priority over Jester's Cap.  Duress also takes priority.  The only case where Jester's Cap really is valuable is with 6 mana open and an active welder, and if I had draw power to feed any of my draw spells I can cast those as an Instant, cast my artifact hate as an instant, and this is more valuable than another threat because whether it is a threat or a draw spell it's going to meet the same counterspell and have the same effect on the game.  Unless there is that active welder with 6 mana on the table.

4)  I never got an active welder with 6 mana in a matchup with Cap in my hand without something else on the table.  It's probably because I both wouldn't waste a tutor on Cap, Cap takes up the space of a draw spell or tutor and therefore I wasn't able to draw into that mana, and Gifts Ungiven is the same amount of mana and an instant so when I had 4 mana I got to Gifts and that won me the game prior to the Cap.  That's the key I would point to.  If you have a welder and 4 mana, you cast Gifts as an instant.  If you manage to get 6 mana with an active welder it's pretty likely that you have either pentavus or triskelion or mindslaver in the yard as well, so protecting those makes Jester's Cap the kind of win more card that a sideboard can't afford to run.  I know if I'd gotten mana flooded with Jester's Cap I might have been happy occasionally, but the problem is there are better bombs (like mind twist) that I can use with an empty hand without an active welder (or with a welder that has a pithing needle in his head, or with null rod out) because sometimes you don't want to have to have a welder to win.  Sometimes you want to use CS to beat down with Pentavus or Triskelion.  In fact, in a control matchup that is far more likely to win you the game than an active welder and a Jester's Cap with 6 mana open.  In my opinion, it's just a better strategy so why run Cap?

5)  Cap doesn't always win against Oath, and when it does it's against a bad Oath build or a bad Oath player.  Against oath you need brokenness and with either chalice, null rod or multiple counters to deal with Cap can't do it and Duress can.  If my sideboard has an extra duress versus Cap I'll take that duress every time.  Cap also has problems with any good Tendrils builds that Leyline of the Void doesn't so I dedicate my 0 mana uncounterable slot to leyline of the void as opposed to Jester's Conditional Cap.

[policehq]

Wow, I really appreciate getting to read these arguments, especially from Evenpence.

I thought it would be a natural include because of the synnergy with Welder and Thirst for Knowledge (which confused me about the 4cc + 2 to activate argument, but I think that was pre-editing "Gifts" to "Slaver"), but it is a great point that it needs to be run in multiples to be found early enough to be effective and thus would clutter the deck or be subpar.

-hq

[Grand Inquisitor]

Jester's Cap does not allow me to do that because it DOES NOT win the game

This is exactly why cap is worth running, unless you're arguing the semantic that removing all your opponent's win conditions isn't exactly "winning the game".

Cap is a card that you want to see in the early game

This is the best argument I've seen so far for not using cap.  I would say this is certainly true for the combo matchup.  However, control mirrors often last until the midgame where cap will often win if activated.  While this is also often true of a mindslaver activation, I'd say that cap has advantages in:

1) It has a greater chance of winning the game with a single activation than mindslaver does against gifts and oath.
2) Since it's mana requirements are lower it is easier to use without welder.

Obviously if you have welder to recur it and enough mana, mindslaver is superior, but that is the definition of win more.

since you aren't taking out Mindslaver all of a sudden it is NOT relevant.  You're adding in more fat artifacts but you can't actually remove any artifacts for it

Obviously a lot of it depends on the build, but most will be able to side out pentavus or triskelion to make room for the cap.

If I need to sideboard in artifact hate (which I do in many control matchups)

Why are you doing this?

The only case where Jester's Cap really is valuable is with 6 mana open and an active welder

I don't understand this at all.  If you have an active welder you only need 2 mana (actually 3, to thirst it into the yard).

had draw power to feed any of my draw spells I can cast those as an Instant

I'm not sure what "draw power" actually means.

beat down with Pentavus or Triskelion.  In fact, in a control matchup that is far more likely to win you the game

I think most control players would be happy with the prospect of racing pentavus or triskelion.

Jester's Cap is not an instant and clutters up the control matchup

Cap doesn't always win against Oath, and when it does it's against a bad Oath build or a bad Oath player.  Against oath you need brokenness and with either chalice, null rod or multiple counters to deal with Cap can't do it and Duress can

If either Gifts or Oath sides into more than 3 win conditions, than jester's cap is probably more efficient than whatever they're bringin in.  Keep in mind I'm not arguing that Cap compares with something like duress or REB as far as efficiency, but, if it's effect is game ending than the cumbersomeness of the card is worth it, in my opinion. 

[Harlequin]

Its basically the same agrument spun two different ways:

On the one hand, Cap is an early game card in a late game deck

On the other hand, it gives you early game options in a deck that normally doesn't have a whole lot going on in those first few turns.

You can basically think of Jester's cap as "Diet Mind Slaver" or "Mind Slaver Lite"  It costs less to hard cast and less to activate ... but is more narrow than mind slaver.  Jester's cap wins you the game if your opponent only has 3 or less main deck threats + wishes.  A single mind slave  also will not always win you the game.  A single Jester's cap is always 3 extracts, where a single mind slave in WORSE case scinareo is Time Walk +  Peak + Turnabout.   And it definately gets better than that.  Because of that cutting 1 of 2 slavers for 1 jester's cap is likely only going to hurt the potency of your deck.

Then It comes down to cutting a meta-card or a another artifact.  That all comes down to what your deck is actually running.  If you think you want 2 slavers + 1 "Diet Slaver" then thats a meta call you're going to have to make on your own.  The current builds seem to be balanced fine, cutting oranges to make room for more apples might have too profound an impact on the flow of the deck.  But agian, a meta-slot is for meta-cards and I think the Cap falls into that area of consideration.

[warble]

1) It has a greater chance of winning the game with a single activation than mindslaver does against gifts and oath.

Silly Boy, nothing in the history of magic has EVER had a better chance of winning a game with a single activation than mindslaver in Control Slaver.  In other decks, sure, there are other potent cards, but in...Control Slaver...I mean come ON dude.  It's not Control Cap, it's Control Slaver.  *sigh*

Obviously a lot of it depends on the build, but most will be able to side out pentavus or triskelion to make room for the cap.

I think most control players would be happy with the prospect of racing pentavus or triskelion.

You'll get pwned in a control mirror if you let a clock like pentavus sit on the table unless you can get a corresponding threat out.  I'm sure, with the right hand, every clock looks silly because you're winning on like turn 2.  That's not a typical control hand, so...because I've got counters for your counters and answers to your threats having even a stupid clock is a clock that usually wins the game.  It's the control mirror...and it's a really weird game...

If I need to sideboard in artifact hate (which I do in many control matchups)

Why are you doing this?

The control matchup is determined by a small number of 2 for 1's like thirst for knowledge, mana drain, rack and ruin, gifts, lava dart...and a much smaller number of goblin welders, fat artifacts, and other win conditions.  If I can rack and ruin to gain a mana advantage in a control mirror it's typically taking 2 or 3 mana out, or taking out that pithing needle/null rod and hopefully a sol ring or mana crypt, I wins.  I dunno about what builds you play against, but I see pithing needle and null rod against CS like 9 times out of 10.  Oh yeah, and if this is the CS mirror you definitely love the rack and ruin.

The only case where Jester's Cap really is valuable is with 6 mana open and an active welder

I don't understand this at all.  If you have an active welder you only need 2 mana (actually 3, to thirst it into the yard).

And again I point out to you that you could have gifts ungiven in your deck and if you can resolve thirst you were one mana away from it.  The point is that you were hardcasting and activating before the lethal drain mana hits because you walked the cap into drain.  Isn't that what you're saying?  "I can walk it into drain and still win with it"?  That would require 6 mana and an active welder.  Otherwise, I'll stick to my cards that dominate the mirror, thank you triskelion and pentavus and gifts.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Silly Boy, nothing in the history of magic has EVER had a better chance of winning a game with a single activation than mindslaver in Control Slaver.  In other decks, sure, there are other potent cards, but in...Control Slaver...I mean come ON dude.  It's not Control Cap, it's Control Slaver.  *sigh*

Are you kidding?

I think people who have played with Belcher or Mirror Universe (since you brought up history) would tend to disagree.  Not to mention stuff like Bargain, Necro, or Psychatog.

The control matchup is determined by a small number of 2 for 1's

This is a little simplistic.  I'm not saying that racking two artifact accelerants is a bad play, but nothing else in Slaver's design threatens the mana base (unless you have titan).  Not to mention that they still get to use them, so if you tap out to R&R, and they respond by casting Gifts, there's a good chance your gonna lose that game.  I didn't think about pithing needle (mostly since darkblast is a more common solution against slaver) but I can see R&R being good there.

And again I point out to you that you could have gifts ungiven in your deck and if you can resolve thirst you were one mana away from it.  The point is that you were hardcasting and activating before the lethal drain mana hits because you walked the cap into drain.  Isn't that what you're saying?  "I can walk it into drain and still win with it"?  That would require 6 mana and an active welder.  Otherwise, I'll stick to my cards that dominate the mirror, thank you triskelion and pentavus and gifts.

Ok, now I understand your point.  However, I'm not recommending hardcasting cap into a waiting mana drain (or slaver for that matter).  Nor am I comparing Cap with Gifts or duress or REB, I'm comparing against other big artifacts.  Obviously Triskelion is useful in the mirror, but against Gifts or Oath he's next to useless.  If you really think that Trike or Pentavus is a reasonable clock against Oath, Gifts, or TT Combo Control, than I guess we have very different understandings of how T1 is played.

[Metman]

I don't think it is fair to say that Slaver doesn't run mana denial.  It would be fair to say that most Slaver builds run a Crucible and Strip Mine plus 1-2 Gorilla Shamans.  As you pointed out, some do run Sundering Titan as well.  If Rack and Ruin is added to the mix than I would feel comfortable saying that Slaver can really screw a mana base over.  I often find the mirror matches won by a few key spells that turn the tempo of the game.  A Gorilla Shaman or Titan can often say GG.