[Premium Article] Sucking with aggro

[Vegeta2711]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/12049.html

Comments and Tuna Fish anyone?

[Sean Ryan]

Good article, but I beat you to the punch.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28523.0

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28392.0

Like many others, when Dark Confidant was printed I wanted to include him in a Fish build.  I also wanted Meddling Mage.  Once I arrived at those 3 colors the deck almost built itself.

This really was the perfect metgame deck post Richmond.  But now we are moving forward to Rochester and things are evolving.  The thing about Fish is that it's a metagame deck.  It must be constructed to beat the top tier.  It hardly ever defines the metagame, and when it starts to, other more powerful strategies it's not tuned to beat come around and bitch slap it out of contention.

Back to the concrete discussion, how did you miss Negator?  This was what sealed the deal for me to play u/b/w Fish.  Negator provides the clock Fish has always wanted, and he doesn't make you scoop to Pyroclasm. 

Right now I'm most focused on various sideboard configurations to shore up weak matchups.  However, I am curious about  tinkering around with Vial/Chalice instead of Rod.

A well constructed Fish build should beat Slaver/Giftz, have a good game against combo, Stomps Stax games 2 & 3, but needs to find a way to consistently beat Oath with Swallowers post board.  Oh yeah, Ichorids out there too.  The addition of Ichorid to the metagame actually hurts more than anything else b/c. you only have so much room to dedicate to poor matchups that are a small percentage of the field, but that you know will be out there.

Anyway, thanks for writing the article.  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you may have.

Thanks
Sean

[Imsomniac101]

Back to the concrete discussion, how did you miss Negator?  This was what sealed the deal for me to play u/b/w Fish.  Negator provides the clock Fish has always wanted, and he doesn't make you scoop to Pyroclasm.

Doesn't Pyroclasm with Negator out, wipe out more of your board than if it would without Negator?

Besides, I think Pyroclasm has been replaced by Rolling Earthquake and Massacre in Wish boards.

@Vegeta:

I'm quite disgusted in the manner you've carried yourself. See the thread that you've opened under the same theme. You act as if you're the only person who can build, metagame and play Fish; and frankly, I've been sick of you're arrogant manner for a while. Yes, it might feel as if every Fish player is a noob, but that is certainly not the case.

[The Atog Lord]

A well constructed Fish build should beat Slaver

The reality is that a Null Rod backed up by some halfway decent disruption has a good chance against Control Slaver. But without Null Rod, Fish is fighting one heck of an uphill battle against Control Slaver. And this is exactly the problem that Josh illustrates in this very well-written article: Fish decks are too often 52 random cards, 4 Forces, and 4 Null Rods. And running Null Rod as your one-card combo isn't a viable strategy for winning events. There needs to be a Fish builds that can have a decent chance against Control Slaver even if i fails to draw its Null Rod.

[Vegeta2711]

I appreciate the comments thus far, now lemme respond real fast before I fall asleep.

Back to the concrete discussion, how did you miss Negator?  This was what sealed the deal for me to play u/b/w Fish.  Negator provides the clock Fish has always wanted, and he doesn't make you scoop to Pyroclasm.

Doesn't Pyroclasm with Negator out, wipe out more of your board than if it would without Negator?

Besides, I think Pyroclasm has been replaced by Rolling Earthquake and Massacre in Wish boards.

@Vegeta:

I'm quite disgusted in the manner you've carried yourself. See the thread that you've opened under the same theme. You act as if you're the only person who can build, metagame and play Fish; and frankly, I've been sick of you're arrogant manner for a while. Yes, it might feel as if every Fish player is a noob, but that is certainly not the case.

Actually you're only half right. I don't think very many people can metagame or build Fish worth a damn. I don't include myself in the 'knowing' category either though. If you asked me a year ago, I'd of said yes, but currently? It's too much work for too little reward. I rather play an entirely different aggro deck or just stick with Grim Long; rather than actually figure out the 'perfect' Fish build for the metagame. In fact you'll take notice that I specfically say the three lists I gave aren't even refined. And by refined I mean 'truly viable for tourney play'. Rich can back me up on the large amount of testing I've done with the UB Fish deck, though I hadn't had the chance to test the final version against him lately. The other two decks are far more theoretical and are simply exploring other ways to create a Fish deck.

So no, I don't claim to know to have a great Fish deck, I claim that nobody else is even trying anything past the 4 Null Rod, 4 FoW philosophy. And that is leading to the decline of Fish on the whole.

Back to the concrete discussion, how did you miss Negator?  This was what sealed the deal for me to play u/b/w Fish.  Negator provides the clock Fish has always wanted, and he doesn't make you scoop to Pyroclasm. 

Right now I'm most focused on various sideboard configurations to shore up weak matchups.  However, I am curious about  tinkering around with Vial/Chalice instead of Rod.

A well constructed Fish build should beat Slaver/Giftz, have a good game against combo, Stomps Stax games 2 & 3, but needs to find a way to consistently beat Oath with Swallowers post board.  Oh yeah, Ichorids out there too.  The addition of Ichorid to the metagame actually hurts more than anything else b/c. you only have so much room to dedicate to poor matchups that are a small percentage of the field, but that you know will be out there.

Anyway, thanks for writing the article.  I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you may have.

Thanks
Sean

Honestly when I tested Negator I wasn't impressed. Trike would ruin his face, he couldn't get past DSC and Pyroclasm was still a pain in the butt for the early or mid-game. Negator wasn't really helping moreso than Sea Drake with the whole 'win the game sooner', but still died to the same things as every other Fish creature. That was my brief experince with it anyway.

I also wouldn't say Fish 'stomps' Slaver at high levels of play. It's a lot more hand dependent than many people would like to admit. Also Oath is probably a lost cause, one of the downsides of a metagame deck for ya. The entire Oath concept in Vintage basically ruins creature strategies and SSS just adds even more problems. I really would just focus on beating the rest of the field.

[BreathWeapon]

I can't read the article, but from my experience as a Fish player I'd like speak on the matter.

I think that moving towards the U/w/b template is the inevitable conclusion every Fish player is going to come to. White and Black give you access to the most powerful and disruptive MD and SB cards in the format, where Green has nothing significant to offer and Red's cards are good, but ultimately not good enough. White gives you Meddling Mage, your most powerful weapon against Oath and Kataki, your most powerful weapon against Stax, Gifts and Slaver. Black gives you Confidant, the most efficient draw engine and Duress, the most efficient disruption card (which has great synergy with Meddling Mage)

I disagree that Null Rod is the work horse of this deck, in all honesty I think Null Rod is too slow in a Fish shell and it should be replaced with Chalice of the Void. While Chalice is restricted to being on the play, it prevents Tinker from resolving, doesn't give Stax/Wire gas and it can be set @1 against decks where it would do a significant amount of damage. As long as your willing to back up Chalice with Kataki, I think Null Rod can be reduced or cut from the MD/SB completely.

I also think the best possible SB card Fish can use is Planar Void, black is the color that finally gave Fish access to good, cheap yard hate that doesn't conflict with Rod or Chalice. Sure the replacement effect can be played around, but atleast it still hoses Ichorid. Also, unless I'm a terrible player, I think Fish is one of the hardest match ups for Ichorid, if for no other reason it is so difficult for the Ichorid player to judge what he can keep a hand on and be prepared for what form of disruption Fish happens to have.

I also disagree that the match up against Oath is lost, Simic Sky Swallower didn't win the match up for Oath, it just changed Fish's side board strategy. Instead of being able to use Swords and Stormscape games 2 and 3 you have to board in Annul, Seal of Cleasing and Kami of Ancient Law and target the Oath instead of the creature. People's reaction to Simic Sky Swallower was a total knee jerk reaction, every one has adapted.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I didn't read the article, because I don't care, but frankly, there are builds of Fish out there that have good matchups against almost everything, INCLUDING OATH.  Do some innovating, win some tournaments.  Confidant is the key.

[Sean Ryan]

@ Vegetta,

I agree with your statement that there is a lack of innovation when it comes to Fish and aggro strategies.  However, the comment about not going beyond "Null Rod & FoW" is right in one sense, but wrong in concluding that this is a negative point. 

Fish exists to exploit the vintage metagame which as we all know is defined by fast artifact mana.  Null Rod, and Chalice to a less extent, are what allow this archetype to exist in the first place.  Do not underestimate the power of the Dark Side...ie; Null Rod.  Now if you want to start thinking about other, non Fish aggro strategies then do so, but lets not kid ourselves about "Fish" being able to compete without Rod or Chalice.  You have posted before that the other obvious option is to build something with Shops.  Outside of Fish and Workshop aggro what is possible?  Anything completive?  Maybe, but I sure as hell don't know.  Have you come to any conclusions here?

Against Slaver.  Yes, the match up is more draw dependant than one might think; but Fish has great consistency in that nearly every card it runs is a 3 to 4 of.  Null Rod wins the game yes, but you can still win without it as long as you can stop Tinker and Will.  Those two cards beat Fish like nothing else.  You can deal with everything else just based off the consistency of your disruption.  I'm actually more worried when I don't draw FoW in my opening hand than Null Rod most of the time.

Negator: Trike is a pain, but you have answers.  Nobody stops Colossus.  The thing about Pyroclam is that control often sees it as a end all answer against Fish and when they do this killing a couple dorks and making me sack 2 other permanants  , the Negator is still there smashing them for 5.  Rolling earthquake on the other hand is devastating.  That card makes me  really want Null Rod, and Stiffles for his fetch attempts.

As far as people not being able to metgame Fish worth a damn, generally your right, but I have shown that it's not impossible with my recent finish.  The URbana build has done likewise.  Neither of these decks have had a chance at a large venue yet, but don't make blanket statements in the face of these facts.  Whether something similar places at Rochester is yet to be seen.  There is defiantly an opportunity.  Is it worth it?  Depends if you enjoy the process.  I know I sure do, but yes it is more work than most other options out there.

Thanks
Sean   

[assassin]

I played against Adrian Sulivan playing a U/B fish deck that was terribly interesting.  He ran Erayo, dimir cutpurse, and confidants for a creature base, and then just used forces, duress, and EEs as his disruption.  It went undefeated until the semi finals.  it was a distinctly different deck and i think the new approach Adrian brought to the format helped alot.

[merfolkOTPT]

Something we have been discussing in the developmental forum with fish is the use of Curfew/the obvious Edict against SSS.  Oath bringing in untargettable creatures isn't isn't unsolvable and if a decent clock is present in fish curfew at one U can provide the tempo needed to win.

[Roxas]

A common mistake I see in attempts to build fish decks is simply that many of them are nothing more than piles of hate and some guys rather than a focused, coherent deck.  People forget that fish is a tempo deck, not a hate deck.  While those two strategies do overlap sometimes, being able to distinguish between them is important to keep in mind while designing fish lists. 

For reference, here is one list that I would consider a focused, coherent tempo deck - Eric Becker's URBana Fish, which has put up successful results in local tournaments (along with my testing and apparently his as well).

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Dark Confidant

1 Ancestral Recall
2 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Duress
3 Mana Leak
1 Rack and Ruin

What makes this different from most other peoples' fish lists?  First off, look at how many ways it has to replenish its threads and disruption that aren't potential card disadvantage (like Curiosity) or extremely clunky to play with (like Standstill):

4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (with eleven potential one-drops)
4 Dark Confidant
2 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

Eleven ways to draw cards or significantly improve card quality.  This is rivals or even exceeds most modern control decks - even Rich Shay's Richmond list only had ten.  This is important; what seems to happen in many of the fish matches I've played in tournaments is that my opponent would use his disruption to put both of us into topdeck mode, and then I end up coming back with ease due to my much greater card draw and overall card quality.  These eleven cards are how URBana Fish solves this problem.

Another element of this deck's success is the quality, quantity, and efficiency of its disruption. 

4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Duress
3 Mana Leak
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Waterfront Bouncer*
1 Rack and Ruin*

This is a lot of disruption, especially when you consider the amount of card drawing this deck has.  Also, outside of the asterisked cards, all of this disruption is unconditional (more precisely, the conditions are nearly ever-present) and often has uses other than disruption (such as Gorilla Shaman being usable for ninjitsu).  Note the absence of cards like Stifle, Misdirection, or Spiketail Hatchling here.  The most notable absence is Null Rod, but not only does it adversely affect the deck's own mana base, but it would horribly crowd the two-mana slot in the deck.

0: 4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine, 3 Chalice of the Void
1: 4 Gorilla Shaman, 4 Duress, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 Ancestral Recall
2: 4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (for all intents and purposes), 4 Dark Confidant, 3 Waterfront Bouncer, 3 Mana Leak, 1 Time Walk

Considering how well the deck can utilize Moxen to cast all of the deck's two-drops, running Null Rod probably wouldn't be very good for it.  The Moxen allow the deck to drop power on the board almost as quickly as Meandeck U/W Fish, which is another reason the deck succeeds.  I see many, many Fish lists with 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Mishra's Factory, and a bunch of one-power creatures.  That is far, far too slow.  This deck is regularly capable of 5-6 power worth of creatures on the board by turn three, something most Fish lists can't boast.

Try to find similar strengths in many of the other lists being posted around here or in those that failed to perform at Richmond, and you will almost invariably find that they are either lacking those strengths or do not have them to the same an extent as this one.  The TMWA-style builds are the worst, because they are just ~37-38 hate cards and some mana sources. 

----

Re: Phyrexian Negator

While he is a serious clock and an efficient threat, the thing Fish wants to do the least is walk a three-mana spell into Mana Drain.  As stated earlier, he also makes you extra-vulnerable to Triskelion.  Two-power guys that either draw you more disruption or act as disruption themselves are better. 

----

P.S.

but frankly, there are builds of Fish out there that have good matchups against almost everything, INCLUDING OATH.

OMGWTF OATH IS THE BEST DECK IN THE FORMAT, NOTHING IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE A GOOD MATCHUP AGAINST IT

[Vegeta2711]

I played against Adrian Sulivan playing a U/B fish deck that was terribly interesting.  He ran Erayo, dimir cutpurse, and confidants for a creature base, and then just used forces, duress, and EEs as his disruption.  It went undefeated until the semi finals.  it was a distinctly different deck and i think the new approach Adrian brought to the format helped alot.

I've actually gotten information about this deck already and have my own version. I personally think it has a lot of potential. 

Against Slaver.  Yes, the match up is more draw dependant than one might think; but Fish has great consistency in that nearly every card it runs is a 3 to 4 of.  Null Rod wins the game yes, but you can still win without it as long as you can stop Tinker and Will.  Those two cards beat Fish like nothing else.  You can deal with everything else just based off the consistency of your disruption.  I'm actually more worried when I don't draw FoW in my opening hand than Null Rod most of the time.

Agreed. I'm simply stating that it's not as easy as some people have made it sound.