Neo EBA...smells Fishy

[Sean Ryan]

I'm looking for some help brainstorming and critiquing this deck idea.

EBA was an old extended aggro-control deck that got ported to Vintage awhile back.  It was u/b/w and resembled a hybrid of Fish and Drains.

Like everyone else I"ve been looking for decks that Dark Confidant can be abused in.  Fish is Bob's natural home but I haven't been that impressed with most of the lists I've seen him in, although Becker's latest list is pretty cool.  Anyway, I knew that black and blue would be defiantly be included in the list but I didn't want to lose white either and then I remembered EBA. 

At Starcity Richmond I ended up playing Mr. Fish himself Mark Perez and he was piloting a deck very similar to what I had been thinking about.  His list can be viewed here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=16544

I like many of Mark's ideas but the list seems unrefined and the sideboard needs serious work.

Here is the current list I'm working on:

Creatures: 14
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Phyrexian Negator
1 Withered Wretch

Disruption:16
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
3 Null Rod
3 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares

Draw/Search/Brokenness: 7
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana: 23
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island

1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

Sideboard Possibilities:

Extract
Duress
Null Rod
Arcane Laboratory
Stiffle

Serenity
Energy Flux
Sacred Ground
Disenchant

Withered Wretch
Planar Void
Tormod's Crypt

Swords to Plowshares
Darkblast
Pithing Needle
Oldman of the Sea
Exalted Angel
Jitte

I've also been considering running Stormscape Apprentice in the maindeck as another answer to DSC/Oath.  The sideboard has alot of options I'm just not sure which matchups will give me the most trouble.

Any ideas are appreciated.

Thanks
Sean

[zeus-online]

What are you going to tutor for with Demonic tutor? Best thing you got is ancestral, and tutoring for ancestral dosnt really seem to fit your gameplan, you should be busy disrupting and beating your opponent!

You should probably find some room for more basics aswell!

Also, that lone withered wretch hardly seems like it belongs, either play 3-4 of them, or just say no The wretch is really good, but having 1 is waaay too random, also it might be hard to play it at BB.

/Zeus

[Sean Ryan]

I had the same thoughts on Demonic Tutor as well but it seemed to powerful not to run.  Besides Ancestral finding Null Rod is key, it also makes the lone Withered Wretch more doable.  I wasn't running the Wretch until I saw Mark's list.  It serves a similiar function as the lone tormod's Crypt in Slaver.  The double black is another reason I don't want to maindeck any more than 1 if any at all.  Do you have any suggestions for what to replace them with?  Also, how would you configure the manabase?

Thanks
Sean

[Gabethebabe]

I´m rather surprised by those Stifles. I would probably play Mana Leak over it.

[Phele]

This idea is nothing new in Europe. In Germany similar lists have shown much since the beginning of the year.

Look on

www.morphling.de

for lists. You can find many of them in the Iserlohn- and Karlsruhe-Top8s. Usually Null Rod is not played main, as they usually play a full moxen set for higher chance of an early Confidant, Mana Leak or Seal of Cleansing. But you can find Rod or Chalice in almost every sideboard. The list vary a bit, but the skeleton is fix:

4 Meddling Mage,
4 Confidants,
2/3 Negator,
4 FoW,
4 Brainstorm,
3 StP,
4 Strip Effects,
3/4 Duress

Around that you can find much variations of other disruption like Mana Leak, Stifle, Seal of Cleansing, additional Duress, StP or Withered Wretches. The deck is horribly successfull and it is astonishing how long it took the players in the states to keep an eye on that. It has a great machtup against CS, Gifts, Oath and Combo in all forms, a tough one against Workshops, a tougher on against other aggro and hates Pyroclasm.

[Implacable]

I'm playing a variant something like this.  However, I am cutting the Force of Wills.  I simply don't like how they play.  My deck is a little bit more aggressive, with Savannah Lions instead of Brainstorm and more 4-of creatures, so I rarely want to give up the blue cards (Stifle, Daze, and Mage) in my hand.

[Sean Ryan]

I´m rather surprised by those Stifles. I would probably play Mana Leak over it.

What is suprising about it?  Fish/ EBA use Stiffle to abuse tempo.  Stiffleing a turn one Fetchland against Slaver/Giftz is devastating.  Stiffle is definitely one of the optional slots though.  Anyway, why do you think Mana Leak over Stiffle?

This idea is nothing new in Europe. In Germany similar lists have shown much since the beginning of the year.

Look on

www.morphling.de

for lists. You can find many of them in the Iserlohn- and Karlsruhe-Top8s. Usually Null Rod is not played main, as they usually play a full moxen set for higher chance of an early Confidant, Mana Leak or Seal of Cleansing. But you can find Rod or Chalice in almost every sideboard. The list vary a bit, but the skeleton is fix:

4 Meddling Mage,
4 Confidants,
2/3 Negator,
4 FoW,
4 Brainstorm,
3 StP,
4 Strip Effects,
3/4 Duress

Around that you can find much variations of other disruption like Mana Leak, Stifle, Seal of Cleansing, additional Duress, StP or Withered Wretches. The deck is horribly successfull and it is astonishing how long it took the players in the states to keep an eye on that. It has a great machtup against CS, Gifts, Oath and Combo in all forms, a tough one against Workshops, a tougher on against other aggro and hates Pyroclasm.

Thanks for the Link.  I love looking at those crazy European top8s

I know this deck isn't "new" it just hasn't been receiving much attention stateside.  The list I posted is more similarto Fish than those in Europe.  The biggest difference being that I have Rod and Kataki maindeck.  I'm not sure which route is better yet, but my reasoning is that if you aren't abusing Will you need to stop Will and Null Rod does an excellent job.  I think that denying mana and playing the tempo game is what this deck wants to do.  The Kataki's help here but most importantly they improve the Workshop match.  Games 2 & 3 you bring in Energy Flux or even Serenity and just hose them.

Do you have any ideas on how to improve the aggro match post sideboard?  Pyroclasm is bad news, no denying that.

Thanks for the input.

Sean

[Harlequin]

I think the best anti-aggro card for Blue heavy two color decks is Old man of the Sea.  But the {u}{u} might be too tough to stir up fast enough.  I think Jitte is likely your best bet.  Especially if your packing E-Flux.  The reason being, Jitte helps you against Fishesq mirror and stompy deck ... where you can safely side out Null Rod.  The only risk is that they leave in Null Rod.  On the flip side of the coin, you go Null Rod + E-flux agianst any random shop-aggro or affinity decks you might encounter.

I personally find that Sacred Ground is AMAZING.  It single handedly shuts down 2 of the 3 primary win conditions of Stax.  And simultaniously ... a white enchantment that is all but immune to smoke stack is extremely difficult for Stax to remove.  So lets take a look a the board...

Completers:
1 Null Rod
1 Stifle
1 STP

Stax:
2 Energy Flux
3 Sacred Ground

Agro:
3 Jitte

Combo:
4 Extract

[zeus-online]

Have you tried Yawgmoth's will? I know this is not a "will deck" and that the deck cant abuse this card as badly as, say, gifts....but just replaying 2-3 spells cant often turn a game around.

I'd probably try running an all-blue mana base for consistency, with a single swamp and 4 delta's....I'm not sure with balance, since you play creatures, but the card is just so freakkin sick that it probably should be in either the SB or Main.

Have you tried with 4 chalice instead of 3 rod's? That way you could run full moxen!

/Zeus

[Sean Ryan]

Check this out:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28523.0 

I challenge that my build is superior to most of those from Europe.  The tempo package of Null Rod, Kataki, and Stiffle is really where this deck wants to go.  Mana Leak, extra moxes, or Will lead you into playing a game that you just can't compete in.

While the maindeck is fairly set, the sideboard is something I'm continually thinking about and will be dictated by the metagame.  Right now I'm loving Annul against Oath and Stax.  I was a little disappointed with Arcane Lab.  It's difficult to get it down in time as I have minimum acceleration.  The 4th Null Rod seems much better.  I've been thinking of Extract but it's a 4 card commitment in a already tight board.  Against I.T. Extract isn't even that good. 


These are definite:
3 E. Flux
3 Annul
1 Null Rod
1-2 Dark Blast     

The rest is really dependant on what you expect to see:

Planar Void/Leyline of the Void
Jitte
StP
Extarct x4
Stiffle
Sacred Ground
Seal of Cleansing

[BreathWeapon]

A friend of mine plays a deck similar to this at my local shop,

I see your version is using Null Rod over Chalice of the Void. Consider this, on the play you have 4 Brainstorm and 1 Ancestral Recall to help find and play a Chalice of the Void. Null Rod has to wait an additional turn, which gives combo a chance to go off or Stax a chance to play extra permanents for Smokestack. Chalice of th Void lets you keep your acceleration on, while Null Rod turns it off. Chalice of the Void can also be set to one, which is important against CS, Ichorid and Combo (it also prevents you from being bitch smacked by Darkblast).

Even if your opponent manages to go first and play out his acceleration, you still have Kataki to turn off his Moxen and you can set your Chalice at 1.

If you are going to use Chalice, your going to need to make some other changes. Plow and Stifle need to go for Dazes, and Duress is better off as Mesmeric Fiend.

Here is what I would suggest,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Meddling Mage
4 Mesmeric Fiend

4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Dark Conidant
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Time Walk

The rest is really up to you, but I'd like to say that Stormscape Apprentice and S2P are terrible against Oath now, either attack the Oath or lose.

[Sean Ryan]

I like the logic behind adding Chalice with a Heavier Kataki element.  Against combo Chalice is great. but against control I prefer Null Rod

 I'm not a fan of Mesmeric Fiend in place of Duress.  I realize you want to be able to cast Chalice at 1 but the extra mana cost and the fact that they can get the card back really makes this seem bad.   

The Negators are not to be dismissed either.  They are really one of the strongest additions.  A faster clock that doesn't completely fall apart to Pyroclam.  Negator makes your tempo deadly.

I appreciate your comments and I will goldfish some of your ideas to see what happens.

Thanks
Sean

[BreathWeapon]

Despite having to take a card from the opponent's hand, how is Mesmeric Fiend's draw back worse than Meddling Mage's? I can understand the 2cc argument, but he's still a turn 1 play with an accelerant, which should happen every other game or so, and he can turn side ways with a Jitte. I can understand wanting to keep Duress for the Duress->Meddling Mage hands tho', but I Chalice @ 1 so often with this deck if I have Kataki in hand vs Control. 

Why is it exactly that you prefer Null Rod over Chalice of the Void against Control? Against Gifts on the draw, they may have already won the game with the two turns you gave them, and Null Rod still allows them to cast Tinker (tho' your deck is much more prepared to deal with Tinker than mine). Null Rod still allows CS to use Welder, and CS probably wont be able to resolve Slaver or Trisk with Chalice on the board unless you walk into a Mana Drain.

I think the biggest card I still have a problem with is Daze, I'm thinking I want Voidmage back. The deck has enough disruption on turn one with Force of Will, Duress and Chalice, and Daze sets me back more tempo than my opponent.

I didn't neglect Negator, I use him myself, and I probably get more milage out of him than you do considering I don't lose my mana sources to Null Rod.

I don't know what you are using for your SB, but it would be a good idea to put in 4 Seal of Cleansing for Oath, some one taught that deck to swallow ...

[Sean Ryan]

BreathWeapon,

Thanks for the comments.  I didn't think of the Fiend in comparison to MMage.  However, I would not cut Duress for Fiends regardless of Chalice.  Basically, I value Duress more than Chalice at one in most circumstances.

Chalice and Rod have their respective strengths and weaknesses.  Against control the games go longer giving me time to resolve the Rod, often leading with Duress.  Null Rod usually does a better job of stopping Y. Will as it shuts off all artifacts, including those they played before you could drop the Chalice.  Rod also stops Trike and Slaver which is huge.  I'm not saying Chalice is bad, just giving my reasoning for Rod.  I will definitely be testing with Chalice in the near future.

Yeah, DAze seems weak, but I'm not sure Voidmage is the answer either.

I never really had a problem casting Negator, Rod or not.  Usually I lead with other spells and cast the Negator after baiting counter magic in the mid game after my opponents resources are exhausted and I've made a few land drops.

The sideboard is giving me trouble.  Basically, I've reached the conclusion that this deck isn't inherently powerful to be good against the entire field and it's sideboard space must be dedicated to bad matchups.  What percentage of the field you expect to be tough matchups will determine whether you bring this deck.  For example, you can't shore up both Stax, Oath, Ichorid and combo.  There's just not enough space.  Currently I'm running Annul x3 in the SB and loving it.  Running Stiffle also helps against Oath as you can often race them once a Negator hits and just Stiffle the trigger.  However, having access to a couple Seal o Cleansing should also be considered, especially if people are packing stuff like Ensnaring Bridge.

Sean

[BreathWeapon]

I agree that Chalice has its weaknesses, but you also have to take into consideration that Kataki will nullify any moxen that hit the board before Chalice and leaves your Chalice to be set @1 if the situation calls for it. Also, the fact that Chalice reduces the average casting cost of the deck is something to consider with Confidant.

Edit: Chalice of the Void also doesn't give Stax permanents for Smoke Stack and Tangle Wire, and if the opponent is using his Moxen to pay for their Upkeep cost for Kataki he can't tap them to Wire ... which was huge today in testing.

Dealing with Oath after it has triggered isn't viable, Simic Sky Swallower changed the entire approach of Fish from dealing with the creature (Stormscape, S2p) to dealing with the Oath (Annul, Seal). I'm going to keep S2P in the MD for Oath game 1, Tinker/Colossus, Welder, Ashen Ghoul and random aggro.

As far as which match ups you should be prepared against, you really need to appreciate the difference Chalice 1 makes against Ichorid. My playtest partner rebuilt his entire deck around Chalice just so it could steal games against Ichorid. If you manage to resolve Chalice 1 on the play and then Strip their Bazaar they are fucked. Also, it stops their boarding plan of bringing in 3-4 Dark Blast and raping you.

I don't see what the problem is with Stax. Your using 4 Kataki and 5 Strips, you should have a good match up. Kataki is just as good as Energy Flux in most instance, accept he lets the Moxen stay on the board. I even have a good game against Workshop Aggro because of Kataki. I honestly think if you SB Seal and Annul to combat Oath, the splash damage should be enough to insure a good match up.

I'm not certain about Voidmage either, but consider that he is Blue, 2 Power, can destroy Dark Confidant, is an uncounterable spell on his own and gives the entire deck a grip over the late game. I think Voidmage is the right call for this deck, because while this deck can gain the advantage in the short run easily, it still has to convert that advantage into a win (and that takes a long time with Fish). His speed and role in the deck hasn't changed in the new meta, in fact I don't think it can chane, so his inclusion seems worth it to me. I really look at this entire deck as U/W/b Fish, black was just added for a better draw engine, disruption and yard hate (and possibly a better clock)

Also, you definately want to be SBing Planar Void right now, Withered Wretch is too hard to cast and too slow a lot of the time.

Here is what I would definately SB,

Seal
Annul
Planar Void
Darkblast

I feel like I can take Gifts and Slaver with the MD, and SBing Planar Void is the best bet to improve the match up post SB. Oath is managable game one, because the opponent is still vulnerable to S2P. Game 2 I'm bringing in 8 hate cards against Oath for the Chalices and S2P, hopefuly it'll give me a coin flip match up. Combo is a joke, you own it. SB out S2P for Planar Void and flip them the bird. Darkblast is for Slaver, Ichorid, UbaStax, Fish and that ass hole who brought Goblins.

If you look at the general usefulness of those cards across the metagame, you'll see that Seal and Annul are good against Stax and Oath, Planar Void is good against Gifts, Slaver, Grim, Dragon, UbaStax and Ichorid and Darkblast is good against Slaver, UbaStax, Ichorid, Fish and random jank.

I would be hard pressed to find a SB with a better Ven Diagram.

Honestly, if I weren't such a Johnny with Ichorid right now, I'd sleave up U/W/b Fish or my UbaStax with super secret tech and play the metagame deck.

[Nastaboi]

I am a pretty unsure about Annul's ability to hit Oath. I have found that I never have one in hand when they cast it, or not wanting to give them several Time Walks by using one mana less than I could in the first couple of turns. I have been using some combination of Kami of the Ancient Laws and Seal of Cleansings between main and sideboard, and some Swords on top of that - in all my possible Fish builds. How has Annul been for you?

[BreathWeapon]

Annul has probably been better in the Stax match up than the Oath match up, but the card is pulling double duty in the SB where Kami of Ancient Law isn't. So, it's hard to call Annul a bad card just because it isn't ideal against Oath.

Kami is awesome tho', a 2/2 beater that destroys Oath is some good. Tho' I think he is strictly a SB card, because S2P is still usable against Oath game 1 and destroys Colossus, Welders and other randomness.

Has anybody else found that Withered Wretch sucks, a lot?