[Deck]UGW Threshold

[Bongo]

Hello all

I'm playing in the following metagame, the first being played the most and the last being played the least:

1) Fish in all forms, mainly UW and UG
2) Combo
3) Oath
4) Mana Drain decks
5) Goblins, other random aggro

There is absolutely no Stax and Control Slaver. There are only 5 proxies allowed and I don't have power.


My thinking now is that UGB Threshold seems to be good in this kind of metagame. I'm not sure if the black splash over white is the correct choice, but it gives me good options like Confidant, Duress and Darkblast. I was thinking of GAT for a brief time, but it has problems against Swords, bounce, Meddling Mage and without Gush and full Moxen generally felt like it lacked power for a deck running Yawgmoths Will. I may be wrong though.
GWS Oath seems like a good option, but unless there is a way to improve the dreaded UW Fish matchup, I think it's better to play Threshold.
However, my knowledge of Vintage is not very good, so please correct me if I'm mistaken or if there is a better deckchoice.


UGB

Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Dark Confidant

Disruption 13
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Stifle
2 Daze

Utility 6
3 Null Rod
2 Echoing Truth
1 Darkblast

Draw 10
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Timewalk

Land 19
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


This list is just a starting point. Everything except Portent is pretty standard. Portent lets you dig deeper than any other 1cc cantrip, improves card quality, pitches to Force and fills up the grave for Threshold. If you are playing Legacy Threshold, Portent should be familiar. I think it's better than Serum Visions.

I keep having trouble with creatures. While Darkblast is nice, it can't kill bigger creatures and Echoing Truth as the only solution to DSC feels somewhat lacking. Swords and Meddling Mage in the white version partially solve this, but it lacks the draw power of Confidant and disruption of Duress.


Basically, this boils down to:

1) Is there better removal for DSC and fish creatures in UGB Threshold?
2) Should I work on UGW Threshold instead?
3) How can GWS Oath improve its game against Fish?
4) What's the correct deck to choose? Threshold? GWS Oath? GAT?

[doomhed]

1- No
2- Yes
3- yes, if you use U/W/g. it has a much better matchup against all flavors of oath.
4- U/W/g threshold would be pretty hot. I recommend using SB true beliver against combo decks.

[Bongo]

The white splash is too important to run over the black one. I just found out the hard way that you absolutely need Swords to deal with DSC.
The title of the thread should probably changed accordingly, since I'm going to work on the white version from now on.

I got the maindeck pretty much figured out, but I don't know how to build the sideboard. The current configuration is:


UGW Threshold Sideboard

1 Null Rod
1 Stifle
3 Ray of Revelation
4 BEB
6 open slots

Maybe some Tormods Crypt are in order, but basically, I've got no clue. True Believer was mentioned by doomhed, by I suspect that they might be too clunky and strain the manabase.
As said above, there is no Stax, Control Slaver and Workshop Aggro in my meta.

What should I include?

[Nastaboi]

I have found out that siding in more bears against combo and Gifts makes you just lose more to Pyroclasm and Massacre. I've been trying Root Mazes on my side against Gifts/combo, and have been happy with them so far. I'm no 100 % sold on them yet, so please try out if they work for you.

[TimeWizzle]

I think that waterfront bouncer may be a decent option in the deck, as it puts cards in the graveyard and answers DSC/Oath critters.  Maybe a 2-of?
No basic lands makes the baby jesus cry.  However, you could correct for that by running life from the loam, which is also a strong threshold enabler (and you can recur your strips).  Just a couple suggestions.

[Bongo]

Waterfront Bouncer may seem decent in the black version, but in the white version I think it's unnessecary. No basics may seem dangerous, but the deck really needs access to all three colors asap, and I had to mulligan hands because I didn't have access to the right color.
Life of the Loam was tested but discarded after a few games because somehow it didn't feel right. Maybe because it's pretty mana-intensive and would be better with cycle lands.

Root Maze seems interesting, but I don't have that much problem against combo. I'm rather searching for something that absolutely destroys UW and UG Fish, as those are pretty abundant.

For clarification, here is the maindeck:

UGW Threshold

Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage

Disruption 10
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze

Utility 10
3 Null Rod
3 Orims Chant
4 Swords

Draw 7
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gush
1 Timewalk

Land 21
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine


Orims Chant has been surprisingly good so far, I'm including the 4th copy in the board. Abeyance would also be good, but the additional mana is too hard to come by.
The only thing I found lacking was the "Draw" section. Is there a way to fit some drawing engine in there?

[Pitlord]

About your list... First, It jumps out at me that you play 21 mana sources, which seems like a lot, but you also lack draw power to get your lands, so it may be correct.

Second, Abeyance could be much better than orims chant, because it does basicaly the same thing, except abeyance cantrips, which is worth the guarenteed extra 1 mana. Also, on the counterbase, have you been finding daze weak? I never really liked daze at all, it always seems to slow me down too much. I think that it could be a 2-of at best.

The only other thing I can comment on is how to improve the fish match. Mystic enforcer in the board is amazing. Even pre-thresh, most fish decks cannot handle a 3/3 without mongrel. Fish certainly cannot handle a 6/6 flyer at all, because three swings with him alone wins the game. Fish can't put up that kind of pressure.

[Bongo]

About your list... First, It jumps out at me that you play 21 mana sources, which seems like a lot, but you also lack draw power to get your lands, so it may be correct.

The problem has been that you can't count WasteStrip as real mana sources, more like 0cc spells, lowering your colored mana to 15 sources. Wasteland and Stifle on Fetchlands are dangerous and can take you out of a game if you hold low mana hands. I'm trying to cut 2 sources and replace them with cantrips for some much-needed library manipulation, though. The other thought that has crossed my mind is to completely eliminate WasteStrip, making the manabase a lot stabler and freeing up some slots. What do you think?

Second, Abeyance could be much better than orims chant, because it does basicaly the same thing, except abeyance cantrips, which is worth the guarenteed extra 1 mana. Also, on the counterbase, have you been finding daze weak? I never really liked daze at all, it always seems to slow me down too much. I think that it could be a 2-of at best.

Yeah, Daze was not as good as expected. I'm thinking about cutting a Daze for a Misdirection, which would mainly have the function of a 5th Force. Is there a good 1 mana counter?
I'd really like to run Abeyance, but there are two big problems. First, Abeyance costs twice as much as Chant and is thus slower and clunkier. Second, Abeyance doesn't stop the opponent from playing artifacts (mainly Moxen). Chant stops Moxen-powered storm combo and Yawgmoth's Will, where Abeyance is only half as effective. The kicker on Chant is also randomly useful.

The only other thing I can comment on is how to improve the fish match. Mystic enforcer in the board is amazing. Even pre-thresh, most fish decks cannot handle a 3/3 without mongrel. Fish certainly cannot handle a 6/6 flyer at all, because three swings with him alone wins the game. Fish can't put up that kind of pressure.

Tried and failed. Swords, Waterfront Bouncer, Gilded Drake, Stormscape Apprentice (and Tormods from the board) make Enforcer largely ineffective.

[Imsomniac101]

My goodness gracious me. You've been talking too much with Doomhed, as it is obvious from your list.

Waterfront Bouncer may seem decent in the black version, but in the white version I think it's unnessecary. No basics may seem dangerous, but the deck really needs access to all three colors asap, and I had to mulligan hands because I didn't have access to the right color.
Life of the Loam was tested but discarded after a few games because somehow it didn't feel right. Maybe because it's pretty mana-intensive and would be better with cycle lands.

Root Maze seems interesting, but I don't have that much problem against combo. I'm rather searching for something that absolutely destroys UW and UG Fish, as those are pretty abundant.

Orims Chant has been surprisingly good so far, I'm including the 4th copy in the board. Abeyance would also be good, but the additional mana is too hard to come by.
The only thing I found lacking was the "Draw" section. Is there a way to fit some drawing engine in there?

ummm. Couple of comments. To win in the pseudo mirror, you need to know how to play the match. I'm not sure if you already know this but I'll go over it anyway. First rule in winning any aggro match is don't get swarmed. Force of Will 2/2's if you have to. Try and pinpoint key parts of their deck. Obviously, you have an order of priority for which spells to counter:

1) Spells that are a pain in the ass to deal with; Crucible, Loam (if you don't have a lot of land), Chalice at X=1, Vial (if you can't drop Rod early, this prevents them from being able to swarm you.) Aggro decks tend not to stock up on cards in this area which allows you to concentrate on #2.
2) Creatures with dangerous abilities.
3) other beaters and Draw engines.

I played with Loam after a while and was dissatisfied with it because it had a recurring cost of 1G which was friggin slow.

I found that Chant wasn't as good against aggro decks as it was against combo, but it certainly wasn't terrible. You need a high number green creatures to take advantage of the timewalk effect. This is fine in a meta with high amounts of aggro.

Draw:
I've repeatedly said that Mental Note is good. Doomhed is going to disagree with me here. But they filter Brainstorms, give you quick threshold (important in aggro mirrors), and is not a subpar cantrip. They add consistency to the deck. Plus they add to your dangerously low blue count. My suggestion is to add 3 of them in place for some mana slots and other free slots. Don't dismiss them just because Doomhed says so.

The problem has been that you can't count WasteStrip as real mana sources, more like 0cc spells, lowering your colored mana to 15 sources. Wasteland and Stifle on Fetchlands are dangerous and can take you out of a game if you hold low mana hands. I'm trying to cut 2 sources and replace them with cantrips for some much-needed library manipulation, though. The other thought that has crossed my mind is to completely eliminate WasteStrip, making the manabase a lot stabler and freeing up some slots. What do you think?

Cutting a couple of wastes is a possibility, although in a heavy Fish meta, extra wastes are needed to deal with Factories.

Yeah, Daze was not as good as expected. I'm thinking about cutting a Daze for a Misdirection, which would mainly have the function of a 5th Force. Is there a good 1 mana counter?

try Spell Snare, might be good with all those bears running around. Plus it deals with Chalice at 1 which is always good. I don't really agree with cutting a Daze, but hey, whatever works for you.

[Pitlord]

OK, I see the argument for and against strip/waste. Personally, I think that strip and 2 wastes is enough. This takes care of factories decently, at least stopping the multiples and pumps form them. Your guys can handle 2/2s, but 3/3s are a lot harder. With the 2 slots form dropping those, I think 2 cantrips is very good, especially if you never see stax.

As for chant, abeyance does shut down storm combo, because then they can't play tendrils, will, or anything but mana. If they can play moxes, they probably won't anyways, saving them to build storm on the combo turn. Also, I think the value of the cantrip is worth a little more than the strain on the mana base for the kicker of chant.

Spell snare is the only thing I can think of as another counter. It seems like it could be decent, countering tutors, bears, and oaths. Misdirection is also a pretty good slot, because it seems like basically all of your meta involves counter wars and ancestral recall.

Also, a good card for the board is old man of the sea, if you can afford him. If you can't, the more mana intense version, Vedelkan Shackles, can really steal quite a few mirror matches.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the input!

I tested some more and made some pretty drastic changes. First, the new decklist:

Mana 17
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus

Creatures 12
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Werebear
4x Meddling Mage

Utility 10
4x Null Rod
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Time Walk
1x Mystical Tutor

Draw 10
4x Brainstorm
4x Portent
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Gush

Counters 11
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Stifle
1x Misdirection


The biggest WTF is probably Portent.
Portent lets you dig deeper than any other 1cc cantrip, improves card quality, pitches to Force and fills up the grave for Threshold. It also provides another shuffling effect for Brainstorm. The drawback of drawing the card on the opponents turn has hardly mattered, but the extra manipulation certainly has.

Mental Note was tested and was good at reaching Threshold, but was bad at providing card quality without Brainstorm. I consider card quality to be of utmost importance because you have no real way of getting quick card-advantage besides Ancestral and Gush. Portent can "chain" more effectively into other cantrips and cheap spells, resulting in Threshold (which happens quick enough). Portent is also a lot better at finding answers than Mental Note.
Another important point is that you know exactly what you draw with Portent (or draw the "4th" card from the top of your library), which you don't with Mental Note.


Second WTF: No Wasteland.
While the card is undoubtedly good, WasteStrip bastardized the manabase too strongly and increased the mulligan ratio. Ironically, opposing Wastelands were deadly because there were only 15 colored sources. 21 land was definitely too much for a descendent of Miracle Grow, but cutting down even more on colored sources was not a possibility. So I did the logical thing: cut Waste completely. This freed up needed slots for cantrips and the 4th Null Rod. The new manabase is rock-solid with 8 Fetches and the additional cantrips guarantee a smooth supply of mana in the early game, while ensuring I draw threats in the lategame.
Mishras Factories were annoying, but I hope I can address that matchup in the sideboard somehow.


Third WTF: No Chant, no Abeyance.
These were either sitting in my hand uselessly or played immediately without much effect, because the timewalk effect of Chant felt only really good when I had some beaters on the board. Abeyance was also a strain on the manacurve, I already have 13 cards at 2cc. They were by no means bad though, forcing through my own key-spells and countering Yawgmoths Will or stopping DSC for a turn, but these scenarios didn't come up as often to justify their inclusion in the maindeck. Null Rod is more important in combo matchups where Chant was mostly useful.
I tested Spell Snare for a short time as a replacement, but it was too narrow to be really useful.


Basically, I felt like the deck tried to do too many things at once and was fragile and inconsistent. While the current version has less "features" now, I feel the consistency improved a lot. I need to mulligan less, I get better card selection, a stable manabase and more blue cards to pitch to Force and MisD.


What do you think of the current maindeck? The debatable slots in my opinion are the 3 Stifle and 3 Daze, which were useless sometimes.

-------------------------------


Edit: I cut 1 Flooded Strand for 1 Mystical Tutor. I had the impression that I got flooded sometimes, so I think it's safe going down to 17. While the card disadvantage of Mystical is bad, I go for Ancestral/Gush most of time, recouping the lost card advantage. Mystical was randomly useful for fetching Swords against DSC or getting a critical counter, I can't complain so far. Or is there a better choice for that slot?


The sideboard is also under construction:

1) Fish in all forms, mainly UW and UG -> ??
2) Combo -> Stifle
3) Oath -> Ray of Revelation
4) Mana Drain decks -> ??
5) Goblins, other random aggro -> BEB


- Vedalken Shackles, which was mentioned before, has the problem that it gets shut down by opposing Null Rods. Same with Engineered Explosives and Jitte. Is there a non-artifact "hoser" for Fish?

- Meddling Mage, Stifle, Null Rod and counters are good against combo, but is it enough?

- Ray of Revelation has the nice side-effect of being good in the Dragon matchup. I'm not sure if Gilded Drake is better though.

- I have absolutely no clue what I could bring in against Mana Drain decks (Gifts, Drain TPS, Confidant Drain).

- BEB should take care of Goblins. It would be nice if the solution for Fish would also be useful in other random aggro matchups.


Your help is greatly appreciated!

[Nastaboi]

Root Maze is such a beating against Mana Drain decks while helping against combo. Shutting down fetchlands and then finally Stifling them is just too insulting. I don't think you need anything against Fish, you should beat them anyways with your bigger and untargetable creatures. You can bring in some strips if you really want something.

Portent is so bad when you want to draw a creature or a land. Sleight of Hand is so much better, and Serum Visioins and Mental Note are both better than Sleight. But if it works for you, fine then.

[Imsomniac101]

I really don't agree with the sorcery speed of Portent. For example, you keep a decent one land hand, you have Stifle, you play land --> Portent to dig for more land --> Pass. Your opponent plays fetchland, breaks it.... at this point you will be kicking yourself. A similar situation can occur where if you Portent and see no land, and your opponent wastes your land.

If I were to play something similar to Portent at sorcery speed, it would be Mirri's Guile. It doesn't cantrip, but it digs every turn, providing you the topdecks you need.

[Bongo]

Root Maze is such a beating against Mana Drain decks while helping against combo. Shutting down fetchlands and then finally Stifling them is just too insulting. I don't think you need anything against Fish, you should beat them anyways with your bigger and untargetable creatures. You can bring in some strips if you really want something.

Root Maze will be tested. What do you suggest siding OUT for it in the Drain matchups?


About the Fish matchup: both UW and UG are giving me more trouble than expected.
UW has Meddling Mage on Mongoose/Werebear, Stormscape Apprentice tapping down Werebear/Mage and sometimes Icatian Javelineer killing unthreshed Werebears/stopping Mage from attacking.
UG has Wild Mongrel, Waterfront Bouncer on Werebear/Mage and pumped Rootwallas trading with Mongoose. Both have Factories blocking Mongoose (multiples are even worse), both attack my manabase with WasteStrip/Stifle and Standstill gives them card advantage. Fish is really popular, and I suspect there will be quite a few Fish lists with Confidant and/or red around as well, basically the whole spectrum.

Wasteland from the board are useful for handling Factories but don't significantly improve the matchup. Is there something in blue, green, white or artifact (Null Rod immune) that can manhandle Fish?

-------------------------------------


The sorcery speed of Portent is not optimal, it would be amazing if it was instant speed. The thing is, the instant speed options are even worse. Opt and Mental Note are about the only things I consider borderline-playable. I have outlined my thoughts about Mental Note above, it's only good for Threshold, not for card quality (at least without Brainstorm). In playtesting, Mental Note -> Ancestral Recall into graveyard was the final nail in the coffin.
Serum Visions seems like a bad version of Portent with less options. The immediate card-draw is about the only area where it's better.

Peek<Opt<Sleight of Hand<Mental Note<Serum Visions<Portent<Brainstorm

That's how I see 1-mana cantrips at the moment. The only other option would be Curiosity, but I doubt that it will be effective.

-------------------------------------


What is better against Oath: Ray of Revelation or Annul?

[zeus-online]

Sounds like OFM (Old Faerie Men) Would be a decent deck in that metagame...

You could try adding old man of the sea/Seasinger/Vedalken shackles...usually helps against fish decks!.....they might be a bit hard on your mana base though, birdshit is, atleast over here in Denmark, known for its crappy mana base.

/Zeus

[Harlequin]

I agree that Old man of the sea is really powerful against fish.  Also jitte is good, but remember your mongeeses cant hold jitte.

As far as Drain and Oath is concerned.  Extract is a house.  Not in place of Swords but in addition to it.  You need extract to deal with Pro-creatures in oath, and the new Sky Swallower as well.  In general any drain deck is hurt by extract.  Drain decks typically only have 2-3 cards that actually win them the game.  Be in Severance/Belcher, Tinker/DSC or the oldschool Decree/Exaulted, also pulling yawg's will away from tendrils (esp IT) can be devistating to them.  Basically, Any deck that has only 3-5 cards that ACTAULLY win the game (tinker doesnt coun't, but DSC does) is crippled or slowed by Extract.
 
Any Fishy type deck (control aggro) running blue, ought to be running 3-4 Extracts on the sideboard.

[Imsomniac101]

I have outlined my thoughts about Mental Note above, it's only good for Threshold, not for card quality (at least without Brainstorm). In playtesting, Mental Note -> Ancestral Recall into graveyard was the final nail in the coffin.

lol. It saddens me when you put Recall into the yard, but it isn't exactly imperative to winning. Sure it will put you way ahead, but the one or 2 extra turns of earlier threshold is enough to put you ahead in the damage race. Again the rule is don't get swarmed by creatures.

If the meta really is as you have outlined, I wouldn't cut Wastelands. They turn Factories into tempo loss for the opponent, which is good for you.

Wasteland from the board are useful for handling Factories but don't significantly improve the matchup. Is there something in blue, green, white or artifact (Null Rod immune) that can manhandle Fish?

Have you ever tried Drop of Honey? Legacy tech!!! All that that would require is your ability to deal with Factories ---> hence Wastelands. Mongoose aren't affected by it. Might be something to try in a meta with lots of aggro.

I cut Old Man a long time ago, because he was too slow and was a bit vulnerable, although he was house once he got online. Also, Why 4x Rods? Is it because alot of decks play Vial? Maindeck Oxidize might do you some good, plus it handles random crap like Crucible.

Try something like this:

-1x Rod
-4x Portent

+2x Mirri's Guile
+3x Mental Note

Aggro-control mirrors tend to be long and drawn out, making Mirri's Guile shine.

I agree that Old man of the sea is really powerful against fish. Also jitte is good, but remember your mongeeses cant hold jitte.

As far as Drain and Oath is concerned. Extract is a house. Not in place of Swords but in addition to it. You need extract to deal with Pro-creatures in oath, and the new Sky Swallower as well. In general any drain deck is hurt by extract. Drain decks typically only have 2-3 cards that actually win them the game. Be in Severance/Belcher, Tinker/DSC or the oldschool Decree/Exaulted, also pulling yawg's will away from tendrils (esp IT) can be devistating to them. Basically, Any deck that has only 3-5 cards that ACTAULLY win the game (tinker doesnt coun't, but DSC does) is crippled or slowed by Extract.
 
Any Fishy type deck (control aggro) running blue, ought to be running 3-4 Extracts on the sideboard.

QFT. Although the way he's made his meta out to be, it isn't high priority.

For the Oath matchup, Ray of Revelation is better as it can be used twice, and can be played after your opponent drops Oath. It has the random bonus of being good against Dragon, but that should be a bye anyway.

EDIT: you should change the title of the thread.

Crypts are also good in the board as they deal with Dredge based aggro decks like Dawn of the Dead and Ichorid, which are actually bad matchups for this deck.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the comments, keep it coming!


- Old Man/Drop of Honey: nice suggestions, but I can't afford those cards, I'm afraid.

- Seasinger is interesting, but I suspect it is very vulnerable to hate/removal and difficult to get working. Has someone experience using Seasinger?

- Extract seems amazing against Drain and Combo, but I have read somewhere that Oath has 3-5 creatures postboard, rendering Extract mostly useless. Is Extract really better than Ray of Revelation against Oath?

- 4 Null Rod: I have found Null Rod to be an amazing card, taking care of so many problem artifacts and winning me many games. My preferred turn 2 play is Null Rod (sometimes Mage, depending on the matchup). I want to have this in play every game, hence 4 copies of it. The strong presence of combo is another reason to run 4. Rendering Triskelion useless in game 2&3 against Oath is also big.

It saddens me when you put Recall into the yard, but it isn't exactly imperative to winning. Sure it will put you way ahead, but the one or 2 extra turns of earlier threshold is enough to put you ahead in the damage race.

I strongly disagree with this. Ancestral Recall is imperative to winning. I absolutely want to resolve Ancestral Recall, not mill it away with Mental Note. It is one of only two ways to directly gain card advantage. I consider card advantage more important than getting to Threshold a turn earlier.
It also came up in playtesting that Mental Note milled away a crucial Swords when I was facing DSC. Another example was milling away Threshold creatures...

The point is: Fish can deal with my creatures even when I have Threshold. This makes Mental Note a lot less powerful. I need solutions, not quick Threshold.

Would Troll Ascetic be a good solution?

[Imsomniac101]

No Troll's please. 3 mana is horrible.

Note that the because the deck is a tempo deck, you don't always have to have a hard answer for your opponent's cards. With Mental Note, I feel quite comfortable in racing my opponent to 20, especially with untargettable mongoose on my side.

I've also been having some success replacing 1x Waste with 1x Cephalid Coliseum. Although I don't quite feel comfortable cutting a waste.

On your question about the Fish matchup. What type of Fish is prevalent in your meta; Vial or Rod wielding Fish? This will change the kinds of solutions you can run.

[Bongo]

Null Rod Fish.


This is not related to the Fish matchup, but is important in the general sense: I have tested with Portent and Mental Note and neither was that amazing. I feel like this deck desperately needs more card advantage besides a single Ancestral/Gush. The deck would be awesome with 4 Gush, but right now, it lacks some punch. To put it simply, I have been overpowered by other decks.

Ninja of the Deep Hours?

[Imsomniac101]

You can run more creatures. I highly recommend Hidden Gibbons. Also, Condemn looks good, although it is untested.

As for card draw, I don't like Ninja, especially when facing decks with creatures. You should really try Miri's Guile, the card quality off that thing is insane. Really.

[Nastaboi]

Null Rod Fish.


This is not related to the Fish matchup, but is important in the general sense: I have tested with Portent and Mental Note and neither was that amazing. I feel like this deck desperately needs more card advantage besides a single Ancestral/Gush. The deck would be awesome with 4 Gush, but right now, it lacks some punch. To put it simply, I have been overpowered by other decks.

Ninja of the Deep Hours?

That's the real problem with the deck. I ran Ninjas a year ago, but they might be to slow or unreliable. But with 4 Lotus/Moxen they might do it.

Another thing you could consider is running Mystical/Regrowth/1-2 Merchant Scrolls as cantrips that find and replay your Ancestral/Gush. They work well with your other instants, too.

[Pitlord]

I think that if your problem is getting overpowered by other fish decks, mental note is your best bet. After you reach threshold, none of the commonly played fish dorks can stand up to a 4/4 bear. Sure, losing ancestral or any other really good card sucks, but I don't think it matters that much. I don't hink drawing ancestral is that important to a fish deck.

Also, you stated that fish can deal with your creatures even after you have thresh. This seems very unlikely, especially if you can drop a mongoose. Mongoose has a bigger body, and cannot be targeted. Almost any fish deck can have problems agaisnt an untargetable creature, even if it is only a 3/3.

One other card I could see playing in threshold is waterfont bouncer. He adds cards to your graveyard, answers dorks and DSC, and swings for 1 if nothing else.

@ running a tutor package, this idea seems very weak. It leaves you relying on 2 ir 3 actual card advantage spells. Agaisnt anything with a counter, you get no draw at all. Also, this plan is very slow for any deck that needs tempo to win. Giving your opponent a free time walk so you can merchant scroll for a card drawer sucks in a tempo deck. Also, this plan is very expensive, the whole point of cantrips is that they are fast and provide deck thinning card quality. Expensive things like 3 mana ancestral are hard for a threshold deck to get the mana for.

[Imsomniac101]

Yes. You should be beating Fish with your bigger creatures. Problem is they play more creatures than you. That's why I keep repeating: Don't Get Swarmed. Forcing 2/2's in the Fish matchup might seem bad, but it is actually the right play most of the time. The tutor package is actually incredibly strong, albeit a bit slow. Adding Mystical/Regrowth/Rushing River (what I call Lam's suite) is a good choice, and adds flexibility, but takes up lots of room. If you do find the room to add it though, play it by all means. I used to play with Scrolls, but the sorcery speed hurts a lot.

[Virtuoso]

instead of mental note/portent slot you can try frantic search and careful study. they put as much cards in the grave as mental note, but you can control which cards go in to the grave. only bad thing about study is that it is a sorcery, but so is portent.

[Bongo]

Thanks for the comments.

I've almost given up on this Threshold/Birdshit deck because of a fundamental problem: not enough power.

I tried the tutor package briefly, but it didn't change the fact that you need more card advantage in an underpowered deck like this. Decks like this lack in card quality, so one has to make up for it with card quantity, imho.
Unless there is a way to incorporate a more efficient draw engine, I think it's best to work on other forms of Fish.

[Guli]

Dark Confidant
Meddling Mage

These 2 are the STRONGEST bears you can get right now. They will work against any deck out there an sometimes even an instant win when they hit the table.

Then you have more specific critters who can be even stronger in a given matchup:

Kataki Wars Wage (stax)
Withered Wretch (anti-welder,graveyard tricks,Y.Will)
Phyrexian Negator (If you want a fast beater without an ability go for the beast)

You have to know 2 things very well of you want to win games. Know your deck's weak matchups and know your meta!

Fish or aggro control is adaptive but if you pick your critters incorrect you will simply be overpowered. There has to be dispruption no matter what. That is why i think werebear is a very poor choice. It does not put a fast clock on your opponent and it has no relevant ability.

There are also SideBoard critters wich also will depend on your meta:

for example: True Believer (sometimes this guy can be even Maindeck but i prefer SB)

I am being brief but i think i made my point. There is a limited amount of slots for critters/counters/removal and it has to be chosen correctly or else fish will fail!

My version of aggro/control is highly experimental, i am testing it in local tournaments and against friends.

before i post the list i ll say this. It feels rather weak against full aggro even tho it depends on your opening. Sometime sit can roll over ANY deck because of a perfect first turn. Sometimes it feels rather slow. My aim is to play a turn 1 confidant/field with a mox but that is not always the case naturally.

UWB Aggro/Control ²⁰⁰⁶

// Mana
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta

    4 Scrubland
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Tundra
   
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Kataki, War's Wage
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Phyrexian Negator

// Spells

    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Stifle
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Time Walk
    4 Suppression Field
    3 Null Rod
    1 Rushing River
    1 Rebuild
    4 Force of Will

This deck disrupts the opponent mana base with stifle,kataki,null rod and suppression f. It has a weak point namely CHALICE@2 so i have to run the bounce. The 2 bounce RRiver and Rebuild also help against oath and pitch for Force of Will early game. Negator is risky but he has won so many games for me. Stifle is perfect in this deck. Note that it can be used on the negator aswell. Stifle also protects my mana base wich is pretty weak against wastelands.
With brainstorm and Confidant i try to dig in my deck searching for answers. They also have good synergy with eachoter wich is a bonus.

I can go on and on explaining more about  my deck because there are so many tricks i did but also so many mistakes. Once i master this deck i will proudly write something long and good. Now it is still too early. However i am still far from satisfied. I feel like i need more mana acceleration. I want to add all moxes just to get 2 mana turn 1. But with 3 Null rod and 3 Kataki it is not easy to make that call. I also feel like i could use some tutors. I am thinking of Demonic and Infernal Tutor.

Suppression field?
Highly underestimated card. Shuts down early fetching or wastelands. Combined with more mana disruption it can even shut down or slow down a lot cards like welder/bazar/tog/loa/trisk/mongrel/zombie infest/slaver/belcher... a lot type 1 cards. SF is the reason why i picked my creature base like that. I run 0 creatures with activated abilities unlike other aggro/control decks. This gives me an edge. And SF is an enchantement! There is a lot of artifact hate out there but as far as i know no real enchantement hate. Sure against oath there is but its in SB. And im sure nobody is going to bring in that hate for SF cause there are bigger threats to worry about.

To conclude:
I could try to bring in 2 tutors and another mox. I can make room by cutting 1 Suppression field (4 is a lot) and rebuild.
I will cut 1 null rod for a mox then i guess. With 2 tutors i should be able to find a null rod. There are still the walking rod's (kataki)

Cheers, Guli

[Duncan]

That deck looks quite decent to me, i'm wondering what your sb looks like. The one thing that seemed a bit strange however was the mana base: 4 scrubland and no basics, what is that good for?

[Guli]

3 colors, MAYBE 1 island is an option. However with stifle,Supp Field,4 fetches i can create a stable mana base the first 3 turns. After that my gameplay normally would put enough pressure on opponent that he will not care to waste 1 dual land. Nah i don't think this deck NEEDS a basic land.

Sideboard: not really complete but here are some cards i use

3 Blue E. B.
1 Swords to P
2 Null Rod
4 True Believer
3 Sacred Ground
2 Anul/Duress
...

NOTE*

I am now testing that list with the following changes
+1 Demonic Tutor
+1 mox emerald
+1 mox ruby

-1 lotus petal (i could keep the petal and play with 1 of the off color moxes, its just that i want to increase my chances for 2 mana turn 1)
-1 Scrubland
-1 Null Rod

I am thinking of adding Infernal Tutor instead of Rebuild later on.

[Imsomniac101]

@Guli:

Your deck has its own problems. Suppression Field is a weak card, and should not played at all (which it is). I'll address this card later. Rebuild is also a weak card when you are playing with Null Rod. Kataki I feel is overrated, but people tell me otherwise. My experience with him against Stax hasn't been as good as I expected more of him.

No strips is what I find disturbing in your deck. And no Duress when you're running black!!

Fish or aggro control is adaptive but if you pick your critters incorrect you will simply be overpowered. There has to be dispruption no matter what. That is why i think werebear is a very poor choice. It does not put a fast clock on your opponent and it has no relevant ability.

Werebear is functionally the same as Negator. Except that it also produces mana. It has one less power, but also costs 1 less and has no drawback when it gets hit.