Accumulate Mechanic

[asi]

This thread is for the discussion of the Accumulate mechanic in general. The mechanic is an ability word with the following text:

Accumulate- At the beginning of your upkeep, put a hoard counter on this permanent.

examples of this mechanic can be found in the following threads:

Common Cycle (Guardians): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29498.0

Uncommon Cycle (Seals): http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29499.0

Rare Cycle: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29500.0

[Illissius]

accommodate (v)
To do a favor or service for; oblige.
To provide for; supply with.
To hold comfortably without crowding.
To make suitable; adapt.
To allow for; consider: an economic proposal that accommodates the interests of senior citizens.
To settle; reconcile.

Maybe you meant Accumulate?

My first thought was that it seems too simplistic, but your cards show some good directions to take the mechanic. It's not as deep as Fading (it's basically the reverse, except there's no analogue to all the fade counters going away), but it has good potential as a side mechanic, like Sunburst. It would be best in a set with other cards and mechanics which interact with charge counters, though, and Mirrodin already exhausted a lot of the possibilities for that.

Also, Mirrodin used +1/+1 counters for creatures and charge counters for artifacts interchangeably in the same mechanics, and there's a reason: R&D wants to avoid having two different types of counters on the same card as much as possible, and creatures can get +1/+1 counters from all sorts of places. But having this give +1/+1 counters would be pretty... powerful. I (unlike, I am sure, others) don't think that's an obstacle, though... after all, fading didn't use +1/+1 counters, either, and the world didn't end.

[parallax]

Charge counters are pretty much limited to non-creature artifacts. You should give the counters a mechanic-specific name, like fading counters. This would be ideal as a small mechanic in a third set of a block.

[asi]

Changed the wording to have it say "Accumulate". I already got used to Accomodate, but I looked it up again, and you're right, it doesn't make sense.

Charge counters are pretty much limited to non-creature artifacts. You should give the counters a mechanic-specific name, like fading counters. This would be ideal as a small mechanic in a third set of a block.

This is what I thought about it, a small mechanic like Provoke. I don't know about the Type of counters, though. Charge counters have a lot of interaction with some cards, but those cards usually want non-creature cards. I also don't know how to name them, alternatively.

[Matt]

At first, I liked this a lot. I like your execution of the mechanic!

But then I read the stuff about renaming the counters, and I was about to suggest Age counters, when I realized how similar this is to the stuff they did with cumulative upkeep in Coldsnap. Do you guys think this is significantly different from a mechanic which already puts a counter on a card each turn?

I think it might be, but I want to hear everyone's opinion.

[Illissius]

If we're keeping Cascade, I see no reason we can't keep this.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's secretly one of the reasons why I think this should still get the go-ahead.

[netherspirit]

I think it's a good ability, it has the possibility to fuel a few new cards, and although it appears to be similar to Cumulative Upkeep it could easily take a different direction. As for naming the counters, what about "Hording" counters?

[Matt]

The word you mean is "hoarding". It's not a bad name but we will definitely want as short a name as possible, to fit more text (reminder text and complicated abilities) on the cards. "Hoard" counters could work.

[netherspirit]

Ah, I knew it didn't look quite right when I wrote it. Hehe, thanks Matt. "Hoard" sounds cool to me.

[asi]

Hoard is cool (though I had to look it up too ). I will edit it into the cards if everyone likes this best.

Is this too good?

Orb of Resistance

Accumulate(At the beginning of your upkeep, put a hoardcounter on this permanent.)
Spells cost X more to play, where X is equal to the number of hoard counters on.
2: Add or remove a hoard counter from Orb of Resistance. Any player may play this ability.
When there are five or more counters on Orb of Resistance, sacrifice it.

[jro]

I don't see any good reason why this ability should be keyworded.  It's effect is simply and completely described by the reminder text.  And, more importantly, I don't see how there's much design space for cards that refer to this keyword.  Will there ever be a card that says "Target permanent gains (or loses) Accumulate."  That seems really dumb.  The proposed hoser you indicate works by removing the counters, not referring to the keyword.  That seems like a much better way to work with this mechanic (by affecting counters), rather than by using the keyword.  There's not even much potential for this to change in the future, like with Ripple (which is always 4 today, but could be something else later) or Cycling (which started off boring, but got abilities that triggered off it, etc.).

[netherspirit]

Will there ever be a card that says "Target permanent gains (or loses) Accumulate."  That seems really dumb.

Why couldn't there be? If the block was designed to use Hoard counters, giving a card Accumulate could be very interesting. For example, you could have something like:

Cardname
4
Artifact
4,T: Target creature gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the amount of Hoard counters on it.

Obviously that's probably not balanced correctly, but in this example you'd want to give a creature Acummulate, especially if it had double strike, trample, flying etc.

If the card had a particularly nasty ability such as multiple damage dealing or something, you would want to remove its Accumulate, so I think that that could also be a possibility.

[Illissius]

I don't see any good reason why this ability should be keyworded. It's effect is simply and completely described by the reminder text.

Quite a lot of mechanics R&D has been doing lately are like this. Radiance, Sweep, Hellbent, etc.

[Anusien]

By the way, do you want Hoard (the verb) or Horde (the noun)?  I imagine you mean Horde since this is on at least 1/3 inanimate objects.

I think having the lands and possibly a few other cards having the same counter type working, but there's no reason you can't have a random counter hoser like Aether Snap even without the subtheme.  You could really easily remove the Accumulate specific stuff and it would still work (and play better with old blocks more obviously).

[netherspirit]

By the way, do you want Hoard (the verb) or Horde (the noun)?  I imagine you mean Horde since this is on at least 1/3 inanimate objects.

I'd use the verb, because it means basically the same as to Accumulate, the noun would be completely different.

[jro]

If the block was designed to use Hoard counters, giving a card Accumulate could be very interesting.

Designing an entire block around a single mechanic is something that MaRo has said R&D is trying to move away from.  That is, they're trying to avoid situations where R&D makes a mechanic and just waits for players to build a deck around it, the best example of that being Affinity.  All of the guild mechanics in Ravnica were designed to be good even if you only played with one card with that mechanic.  So I don't see how taking something narrow (a new type of named counter), and then making a whole bunch of cards around it fits into the present direction of Magic design.

Quite a lot of mechanics R&D has been doing lately are like this. Radiance, Sweep, Hellbent, etc.

Those aren't keywords, they're ability words.  Ability words have no purpose in terms of game mechanics.  They're just there to help players talk about the abilities (ex. "I'm hellbent, so my Demon's Jester is bigger.")

[asi]

If the block was designed to use Hoard counters, giving a card Accumulate could be very interesting.

Designing an entire block around a single mechanic is something that MaRo has said R&D is trying to move away from.  That is, they're trying to avoid situations where R&D makes a mechanic and just waits for players to build a deck around it, the best example of that being Affinity.  All of the guild mechanics in Ravnica were designed to be good even if you only played with one card with that mechanic.  So I don't see how taking something narrow (a new type of named counter), and then making a whole bunch of cards around it fits into the present direction of Magic design.

Well, I wouldn't want a block or even a set designed around the mechanic. I thought about ~15 cards or so, maybe a cycle for every colour (common, uncommon, rare) and one-three artifacts. The commons should make limited play, while the others should be okay in casual or constructed (T2 especially). A mechanic like Ripple, Provoke, Amplify, not a new Affinity.

That said, I had an idea for another card:

Chalice of Plenty

Artifact
Chalice of Plenty comes into play with X hoard counters.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put X hoard counters on each permanent you control with Accumulate.


Since I don't want too many cards, it would be nice to see whether the mechanic is ok and if, how many and which cards I should select to edit in my first post, and which have to go.

 

[parallax]

You can't really make cards that interact with Accumulate separately if it's only 15 cards. There weren't any cards that gave or removed Provoke, for example. I wouldn't make any cards that didn't do anything unless you play other Accumulate cards. The cards themselves should be interesting enough. You could just make a few cycles of cards that say "At the beginning of your upkeep, add a hoard counter to ~this~." At best it should be an ability word like Sweep or Hellbent.

[asi]

You can't really make cards that interact with Accumulate separately if it's only 15 cards. There weren't any cards that gave or removed Provoke, for example. I wouldn't make any cards that didn't do anything unless you play other Accumulate cards. The cards themselves should be interesting enough. You could just make a few cycles of cards that say "At the beginning of your upkeep, add a hoard counter to ~this~." At best it should be an ability word like Sweep or Hellbent.

It could be an ability word, but I don't know how to phrase that. Also, there was Thrumming Stone in Coldsnap, for example, but I see the point of not making cards that refer to Accumulate only. I think I will edit an uptadet list of cards with Accumulate in the next days in the original post.

[Matt]

You really shouldn't make too many of these cards right off the bat because you'll never be able to come to a concensus on them all at once. This thread should be about the ability only, each individiaul card needs to have its own thread (while not breaking rule #1).

[jro]

It could be an ability word, but I don't know how to phrase that. Also, there was Thrumming Stone in Coldsnap, for example, but I see the point of not making cards that refer to Accumulate only. I think I will edit an uptadet list of cards with Accumulate in the next days in the original post.

Ability words are just placed in italics prior to the card ability that demonstrates that mechanic.  Take a look at some Hellbent or Radiance cards to see how it's done.  In this case it would be something like:
Accumulate -- At the beginning of your upkeep, put a hoard counter on ~this~.

[asi]

I changed it quite a bit. The ability is now an ability word, which means I probably won't be able to shorten the ability (that is, writing it without Reminder Text, because now it doesn't have reminder text anymore). That isn't much of a problem, because every card that is now on the list would fit onto a real card, so no space issues.

I chose a common and an uncommon cycle for every colour; most are mainly playable in limited. The 2 rares are ok in my opinion because they are a non-basic land an an artifact, two card types that are traditionally less common than coloured cards and that don't need an actual cycle around them.

@ Matt:

Should I split the thread into a 12 single threads in this forum?

[Matt]

No, you should make cards 2 or 3 at a time, each with their own thread. Just like normal cards. If it takes awhile to get all the cards you've already made passed, well, them's the breaks.