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Author Topic: Black spot removal  (Read 1520 times)
Nazdakka
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« on: August 14, 2006, 02:02:08 pm »

When I was thinking about my modern Necrodeck project, an interesting question came into my head. Given the whole of Magic to choose from, I couldn't some up with a single spell which was like a flagship card for black removal to fill that slot. I wound up using Chainer's Edict. Now, maybe I should have gone for Terror, Dark Banishing, Smother or something, or perhaps I should have have used some other sort of card entirely, but the answer to the question of which those spot removal spells is the best in which situation. Some of this naturally depends on metagame considerations (Terror sucked in Mirrodin block), but if one is designing for a general casual metagame where everyone has 4-5 decks, then there's such variation that a lot of metagaming goes out of the window.

So, the question is: What would make you choose one these spells over a another one? Which is your personal favorite? Most importantly, why?

List of relavent spells:
Last Gasp
Terror
Dark Banishing
Smother
Chainer's Edict
Diabolic Edict
Sickening Shoal
Vicious Hunger
Snuff Out
Ghastly Demise
Darkblast
Lose Hope

Some of these are more 'duh' than the others - the last 4 in particular require a certain decktype/metagame to be useful. The question remains, though: What makes the difference when choosing between these cards?
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Nazdakka

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el bingren
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2006, 05:09:25 pm »

It's hard to say which is the best but imho there are two creatures that draw the line in this pool and they are of course Dark Confidant and DSC.  Mongrel negates half of these as well and MMage is MMage, but Confidant and DSC are played all over and they win lots and lots of games.  Granted there are plenty of phenomenal creatures in Magic, but with the given cards below most of those great T1 creatures won't really cause problems except my two controls up above.  Here's my very quick and to the point take on the problem. 

Last Gasp                      doesn't kill DSC
Terror                            doesn't kill DSC or Confidant
Dark Banishing                   doesn't kill DSC or Confidant and costs more than Terror
Smother                              I like Smother...but it doesn't deal w/ DSC
Sickening Shoal                   Not bad at all really, but no DSC
Vicious Hunger                  It's hard to make a case for this in T1 compared to it's competitors
Snuff Out                       9 times out of 10 you're paying 4 life, which is fine, but there's better, oh yeah...no DSC
Ghastly Demise                 Everybody loves this and it's a great Wish target but says 'Nay' to Confidants or DSC Sad
Darkblast                           Like you said, highly situational and doesn't even think about DSC
Lose Hope                          Darkblast is better

So I'm left with Chainer's and Edict, both great cards.  They will get the job done in most aggro matches as in today's T1 aggro decks every creature is good and worth killing except for in dumb Goblins in which that sucks you were dealt Goblins and Gay Fish in which removal isn't your gameplan.  With these two cards one's drawback is the other's advantage, and vise versa.  When I play magic, I usually don't play sorceries unless they're called Time Walk or Yawgmoth's Will and I'd rather just win then pay 7 for a flashback so my vote goes to Diabolic Edict FTW.

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Nazdakka
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2006, 05:40:51 pm »

It's hard to say which is the best but imho there are two creatures that draw the line in this pool and they are of course Dark Confidant and DSC.  Mongrel negates half of these as well and MMage is MMage, but Confidant and DSC are played all over and they win lots and lots of games.  Granted there are plenty of phenomenal creatures in Magic, but with the given cards below most of those great T1 creatures won't really cause problems except my two controls up above.  Here's my very quick and to the point take on the problem. 

Last Gasp                      doesn't kill DSC
Terror                            doesn't kill DSC or Confidant
Dark Banishing                   doesn't kill DSC or Confidant and costs more than Terror
Smother                              I like Smother...but it doesn't deal w/ DSC
Sickening Shoal                   Not bad at all really, but no DSC
Vicious Hunger                  It's hard to make a case for this in T1 compared to it's competitors
Snuff Out                       9 times out of 10 you're paying 4 life, which is fine, but there's better, oh yeah...no DSC
Ghastly Demise                 Everybody loves this and it's a great Wish target but says 'Nay' to Confidants or DSC Sad
Darkblast                           Like you said, highly situational and doesn't even think about DSC
Lose Hope                          Darkblast is better

So I'm left with Chainer's and Edict, both great cards.  They will get the job done in most aggro matches as in today's T1 aggro decks every creature is good and worth killing except for in dumb Goblins in which that sucks you were dealt Goblins and Gay Fish in which removal isn't your gameplan.  With these two cards one's drawback is the other's advantage, and vise versa.  When I play magic, I usually don't play sorceries unless they're called Time Walk or Yawgmoth's Will and I'd rather just win then pay 7 for a flashback so my vote goes to Diabolic Edict FTW.

The point isn't really T1. The answer there seems mostly to be 'none of them' Smile. I'm looking more for casual decks. Say my rat deck. It bounces Chitterling and Ravenous Rats into and out of play to screw with people's hands while beating down with utility creatures. If DSC hits play then either a) my opponent is playing a deck which is much more broken than mine or b) the game was lost some time ago.

Now, that deck has 4 slots devoted to noncreature spot removal. There's an arguement that perhaps it shouldn't, and that I should use Keening Banshee or something (4 NekRATaals are in there already), but that's not the point. The point is how to evaluate what spell to use in those 4 slots. My personal choice for that deck is Last Gasp.

The reason for that choice is that it gives the deck a way to cope with black creatures, which it can't otherwise deal with. Even large black creatures (like Visara or something) can be killed by a combination of a suicidal attack and a Last Gasp. Other choices exist, like one of the Edicts might be possible, but often I don't want to guy just a random guy, I want to kill the specific guy who is blocking my Nezumi Cutthroats (or whatever). That's the sort of thinking I'm interested in here: What makes you choose one of these cards above another for a casual meta?
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Nazdakka

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el bingren
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2006, 06:39:35 pm »

Oh man my bad, sometimes I forget that people aren't necessarily talking about T1 all the time.  But to my defense, why wouldn't they be?  It's Magic's oldest and goldest greatest format.  If you're talking random fun-time games I like your choice of Last Gasp, nice solid card.  If you're going that route, how do you feel about Scent of Nightshade or Death Pulse?  I especially like Death Pulse's versatility in a deck like yours.  I may be the wrong guy for answering this casual question.  I haven't touched a casual deck since super-fun T4 was introduced to us.  That being said, I'd splash red and Agonizing Demise any who stand in the way of victory!
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2006, 07:54:34 pm »

From that list? I choose Chainer's Edict, because my Necro deck is absolutely going to have 4 Contagion and probably some number of Spinning Darkness in it to deal with small creatures (so I need something to take out the big guys).
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2006, 10:24:54 am »

     If you are looking at 3CC spells like Dark Banishing, Seal of Doom is better in multiplayer.  But if you want instants, play Rend Flesh over Dark Banishing.
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2006, 11:15:21 am »

It really depends on the rest of your deck and what your other answers are. In a deck that already has Nekrataal, you want something that hits the black creatures Nekrataal can't. As such, Last Gasp is a fine choice. In a Vintage metagame, you want to be able to kill X/1 creatures and the graveyard is readily accessible, making Darkblast an excellent option. Not many creature-removal cards can hit DSC anyway. The Collosus is best dealt with through bounce. If you have lots of ways to kill small guys off, you probably want to add an Edict effect to take out the large guys afterward.
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
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