[Deck] Stax Variant

[netherspirit]

So, I've been trying to find more and more ways to Improve Stax, and in all my testing I've found the single most powerful card to be Strip Mine, so as such I always try to establish a lock with it as fast as possible and then exploit it as much as I can. So now I've turned my attention to the possibility of using Fastbond, and so far, its absolutely phenomenal. Anyways, here is my current list:

Fastbond Stax

Mana Base:
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop

Disruption:
4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Sinkhole
4 Tangle Wire

Card Draw/Tutor:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tinker
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor

Utility:
1 Regrowth
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond

Anti-Creature:
2 Propaganda

Kill:
1 Black Vise
1 Darksteel Colossus

So, there it is, the first thing that may stick out to you is that the only real Stax part I'm using is Tangle Wire, the simple reason being Sphere of Resistance is too slow, Smokestack is rubbish in my opinion, and I forgot about Trinisphere and don't know what to cut for it.

Card explanations then:

No Wastelands - I need 3 colours for this deck to work, Wasteland only gives colourless mana and doesn't do a lot for the deck in general.

Duress - Always nice early game.

Mana Drain - Helps with mana acceleration.

Sinkhole - Best land destruction card other than Strip Mine available IMO.

Tangle Wire - If you can get them under the Strip/Crucible lock this becomes 2 or 3 Time Walks.

Grim Tutor - Next best tutor for the deck after Demonic.

Crop Rotation - Fetches Strip Mine.

Tinker - No way to hard cast Darksteel Colossus!

Entomb - Gets Strip Mine or any other land I want, acts as a general tutor with Regrowth, and helps thin the deck down a little if I don't need to dump anything to the graveyard.

Crucible of Worlds - Speaks for itself.

Fastbond - Makes the Strip Mine lock unbreakable.

Propaganda - Once a creature is down I have no answers to it other than this and Tangle Wire, and with the amount of mana denial I have this works particularly well.

Black Vise - Early or late game this is brilliant, it's quite conditional in the sense that I need a lock for it to work though.

Darksteel Colossus - Backs Black Vise up.


I'm looking to include Force of Will and Trinisphere, but I dont know what to cut for them yet. I've not got a sideboard yet, im considering running Stifle for combo decks, because they will be able to out race me quite easily. And I may SB 2 Propagandas, my meta is full of creature aggro so it would be a fairly good addition. Any suggestions on the deck and sideboard then?

 Thanks, Netherspirit

[MonoE]

(1) With so many tutors (including Tinker if needed, esp. post-board if you side more out), 4 Crucibles is surely incorrect. Three at most seems tenable. It's not the sort of card you want to get more than one of. Null Rod doesn't affect it, Pithing Needle doesn't affect it, it's out of Chalice range, and few people play Powder Kegs because of those other two cards. The main way it will be dealt with is bounce. The only other way I could think is Extraction, which doesn't care how many you're playing. There's your Trinisphere slot, at least.

(2) Replace Sinkhole with Wasteland. This is Vintage. Not only is Wasteland very close to as good as Strip Mine in Vintage, but Sinkhole stretches your deck's specific mana requirements and is counterable and -- just as importantly -- Misdirectable. Don't worry about Wasteland giving you colorless mana-- you build your manabase 66% thinking that you'll never tap Waste for a colorless, and 33% banking on it when you must. Anyhow, you have Tangle Wire and Crucible (and Trinisphere if you cut a Crucible) if it comes down to a slightly bad hand.  Wasteland comes online right away, too. First turn, if for some reason that's a good play (when Dragon drops a Bazaar, say, or when you also have Moxen/Lotus/Ring). In short, Wasteland is better than Sinkhole in every way, especially because it gives your manabase a boost without sacrificing mana denial. It's really close to Strips 2-5. Wasteland over Sinkhole also increases Fastbond's power in the deck, allowing you to Waste + play a land, or even Strip + Waste + play a land, each turn!

(3) I don't really understand Mana Drain here. It doesn't work as early acceleration, because it's not up turn 1 very often, and on turn two you should have drawn into Workshop or a way to get Workshop (any of your six tutors (five black ones, plus Rotation)). Add in Ancestral and that's 11 ways to get Workshop.The only spells you could realistically hope to 'accelerate' out after Draining turn two are Crucible and Tangle Wire, and you could have played them once you drop your third land anyhow! Are you finding that you usually have the {BB} for Sinkhole? If so, I would go with that in Drain's place.

(4) Factories would be better than Propaganda if you're worried about the random one or two creatures escaping your lock. They can take out x/3's on defense (and honestly, what in Vintage is bigger than that? Unless it's way bigger and we're talking DSC?), and come back with CoW. This would further ensure that you always have mana when you need it, too. Propaganda could be a SB choice, though.

Maybe more later . . . I'm mulling.

Regards,
Eric

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think Karn might be a better finisher in this deck than DSC for a number of reasons.  First, you don't have to accelerate into him as much or rely on Tinker to get him out.  Second by animating lock pieces when he comes out, he essentially has haste and can kill in about as few turns.  Third, he kills enemy moxen, further locking them out of the game and preventing lucky Ancestrals and the like.

I agree with MonoE. Mana Drain is interesting but completely unnecessary.  If you want to keep people out of the game, drop another lock piece.  I notice you're missing Trinisphere, for example.  Chalice of the Void and Sphere of Resistence are also good.

Lastly, and ironically, your mana base is uber susceptible to Wasteland/Strip Mine itself.  I would look at a 5c Stax list to see where to go with that.

Otherwise, it's a strong concept.  People just don't come prepared for the kind of dedicated disruption repeated Strip Mine can bring (see WTG).  Gamble might be curiously strong in this build.  And you might have to sideboard something to protect your graveyard.

[Dakkon]

I would take out mana drain and add Dark Confidant since he can be your reliable draw engine and a kill condition.

Then I would take out 1 crucible for a trinisphere.

Then I would replace the fetches with wastelands. and replace the duals with gemstone mine and City of Brass.

Now you can take out sink-hole for another lock peice. This part depends on your meta. I really like Sphere of resistance since your not running welders to constantly cycle tanglewire And Shere of resistance is actually one of THE FASTEST lock peices out there since it affects you opponent right away. making it difficult to combo out or cast a large amount of creatures.

Though if you have goblins in your meta I would go with chalice as you can shut them off both vial and lacky.

Lastly. If this is "Fastbond stax" why arent you runnign zuran orb? it help against the life-loss of other cards, screws up storms math occasionally, AND its and infinit life combo with fastbond and crucible. which is good since your running 7 tutors to find the peices.


Though it seems your just trying to fill 1 deck wiht all the power you can put in it with drains, workshops, and grims.....which doesnt work.

AND most of all. your not running Tolarian Acadamy........

[MonoE]

Reading other people's suggestions and thinking a little more, I had a sort of overarching idea. This deck seems to me like it wants to win by sheer attrition-- it's like 65% one-for-one traders or symmetric disruption (Strip Mine, Duress, Sinkhole, Wire [well, Wire is a little better than symmetric]); then it's got 10% worth of extreme card advantage which works well with the disruption (Crucible, Fastbond); the other 25% is making sure these card advantage engines get out, so that you always come out on top of the war of attrition. And since you're fighting the war with mana, the most basic need of any deck, it's a decent strategy.

This idea brings more light to the reasons why Mana Drain does not work. This deck should be content to go into turn three or four with ANY two lands, while its opponent has only one or none. It can't sustain {UU} over the course of a game, let alone an open {UU}. The same logic makes me reconsider Sinkhole. I share Lochinvar's concern about your manabase. You could certainly find room for a few more specific-producing lands, so as to get at least one of each basic in there as your first fetches. Also, consider Shadow of Doubt over Sinkhole. Easier to cast here (especially when you consider that the chances of a Mox helping double as opposed to Sinkhole), and just as effective at denying mana. As a bonus it is pretty utility later on in games you may not be winning, tempo-wise. Shadowing a Tinker, D. Tutor, or the like is equivalent to countering the respective threats these searchers enable.

Lastly (for now), there has got to be a way to fit 4x Chalice in there. It's so good. Seriously. Chalice for 1 doesn't hurt if you've got either Fastbond or the Vise out already, especially since the primary method of bounce in Vintage (Chain of V.) costs one itself. Chalice for 2 looks to be an even better option. However, at this point you're spending 4 for the thing, so if that turns out to be the primary reason to run Chalice, it would be better to run Sphere of Resistance instead. Seeing as you've got jewelry (Moxen, Lotus), Chalice for 0 isn't a great play either. Maybe check out Sphere, then, unless you change the deck to accomodate Chalice (which could be a good move). Sphere matches up with Workshop's amount, too.

Why not run one copy of Ghost Quarter, too? Lots of Vintage decks have been getting away with running about 3 basics in their deck. That means that after three turns of Quarter (even if you don't yet have Strip), Quarter = Strip, buying you time to find Strip to get those basics (or you can Sink 'em!). Some decks don't even run basics at all. I saw this Madness deck that did surprisingly well in a tournament a few months ago, running 3x Ghostly Quarter. You look at the manabases, even the Top 8, and you realize why. Also, Quarter + Shadow of Doubt is good tech in a pinch-- you know, to get those last few Vise points in? Or DSC's final swing? Just a thought. Singleton for minimal commitment, although I would suggest upping Crop Rotation to two, especially if you also decide to run Wasteland. You could get away with 3x Wasteland, 1x Shadow in the Sinkhole spot, then Shadow of Doubt in the Drain spot, if you could find a way to get another Rotation in there. You really don't want to have to tutor for a tutor, you know?

Eric

[df8251]

Sinkhole over Wastelands isnt the best idea. BB isnt very easy to get however you can easily just drop a land and take something out, as well as if you really need mana, wasteland provides one colorless. yes, it might take up your land drop for a turn, but thats not a problem.

Pros [IMO]:
 
Wasteland costs 0
Cant be countered [only Stifled]
Provides mana when needed
Works great with Fastbond/Crucible Combo. [or with Crucible itself]
Less expensive [cost wise]
Sinkhole costs BB, when Waste is an easy first turn drop, limiting your opponents second turn to playing a single land.

Conns:
Limited to one land a turn.
Only targets nonbasics, but come on, this is vintage. people run like 3 basics lands [at most!] in their decks.

I suggest limiting yourself to three Crucibles. Add one Zuran Orb for the hell of it, it provides the Fastbond/Crucible Infinite Life/Mana Combo, as well as providing you with extra life when in need. no need to worry about not being able to find it, or crucible either because you run 7 or 8 tutors. Speaking of tutors, why run three Grim Tutors but no Imperial Seal?

Karn seems more reliable for sure. It is able to be hardcasted so when drawn without Tinker its not just a dead draw, as well mas it can take out opponents moxen for just 1 colorless. When locking opponent with crucible/strip, moxen are all that they will have left for mana, so hit them there too. Karn also pimps out your artifacts so your opponent gets to enjoy being killed by Sol Ring  .

I think i might have just restated everything the previous posters have requested, but hey, that is probably whats best. i say keep Mana Drain, they can come in handy versus many decks. but so would Trinisphere. i dunno man.

By the way, i noticed you were running the Black Vise, i recently pulled it out of my decklist because its best with some sort of lockup [Stax for example] yet my deck isnt. how is it working for you?

well thats all i got to say, hope that helped some. Goodbye.

[MonoE]

A few things I forgot before---

(a) I agree that Zuran Orb is a great addition. No cost, and this deck generates card advantage. A terrible card to see in your opening hand outside of accompanying a Tinker, though, but it would be one of very few cards in the deck like that.

(b) Have you considered Ensnaring Bridge? I feel that's better than Propaganda in every way. Works with Workshops; no specific mana. And you only need to really hold three or four cards in hand-- Vintage beaters are small, or else DSC. (Oath aside.) And holding back some cards can't be a problem for this deck, you have plenty to do with CoW and Fastbond making your sacrifice abilities recurrent. I mean, I haven't played this deck or anything, but I would imagine you go into the midgame with plenty of cards in hand, and that despite playing optimally, probably end the game with as many-- unuseful tutors, extra lands, etc. No? Even if this is not entirely true, it may be worth tweaking the deck to allow Bridge at least as a SB option.

[netherspirit]

@ Everyone: Thanks so much for the input guys!! It's really helping!
@ MonoE: I have actually considered running Bridge, it would be OK early game, because I can generally drop my hand very quickly, but once I've established a Strip Mine lock my hand fills up very fast. I'm really not sold on Shadow of Doubt though, I like Drain because I often have the mana need to play it, what about replacing it with Cabal Therapy though?
@ Dakkon: I was considering Dark Confidant, but I have so much tutoring going on that he turned out to do very little. As for Gemstone Mine and City of Brass though, I don't like City in here because I'm losing enough life as it is, and with fetches and duals it really isn't that hard to get the colours I need. And no I'm not trying to fit the deck with as much power as possible.
@: df8251: I haven't included Imperial Seal because I just prefer Grim Tutor, I don't like having to wait a turn to get the card. However, I will try it out. As for Vise, it's AMAZING!

Well guys, I shall definitely try adding Karn instead of DSC,  I'll cut a CoW for Trinisphere, and will do various tests with replacing Mana Drain and Sinkhole. I really really don't like Wasteland, but I'm willing to try 3 in here. Thanks again for all the help!

 Netherspirit

[M.Solymossy]

Edit:  I'm not gunna get banned for this thread.  I should have ignored it....

Post deleted.

[netherspirit]

Right, I've been testing, and I ended up cutting out the Mana Drains and replacing them with Sphere of Resistance. I did try cutting Sinkhole, but it was horrid, the deck lost speed so much, it's dead easy to get BB with this deck, and Sinkhole is just brilliant, I haven't got round to testing Wasteland, but my metagame doesn't actually involve a lot of nonbasic lands, so Wasteland probably won't be great. I've cut 1 CoW for Trinisphere, 1 Grim Tutor for Imperial Seal, and DSC for Karn. Works very well now!! I'm now contemplating what to cut for Zuran Orb, I'm not sure yet, but I've been considering getting rid of Entomb. Anyways, thanks loads again guys, without the help so far this deck would be nowhere!!!
 
 Netherspirit

[MonoE]

but my metagame doesn't actually involve a lot of nonbasic lands

What exactly is your metagame, then? Since it's obviously very different from a generic Vintage meta, knowing it would help us determine the best card choices for you.

Eric

[netherspirit]

but my metagame doesn't actually involve a lot of nonbasic lands

What exactly is your metagame, then? Since it's obviously very different from a generic Vintage meta, knowing it would help us determine the best card choices for you.

Eric

The majority is aggro and control, there's a lot of B/W Boros type decks floating about. Quite a lot of monoblue control and monoblack control. The occasional mono white or blue/white control. Green beats with heavy mana acceleration. The majority of decks are only 1 or 2 colours, and a lot of them only run basics, with some fetch lands floating about. My meta's problem is that a lot of players are quite casual, and as such there's not loads of vintage to play, so it's quite odd. I've been considering working on this and adapting it to cope with a more generic vintage metagame so that I can use it in large scale tournaments next year, when I will have more free time. I guess it makes more sense for me to build this for a generic metagame, but if someone would try testing the deck they will probably see what I mean about Wasteland not being that great.

[df8251]

keep entomb if it is one of your main keys to getting strip mine/crucible lock. trinisphere should do great with an aggro metagame. Since your meta has green fast accel decks, propaganda may not be your best choice. Island Sanctuary may help for some decks (unless they use flying beats) ir will just prevent you from drawing and give you more time to use the black vise/ strip mine lockup kill. I think you have plenty of Tutor effects so Dark Confidant may not be the best choice, since it will on kill you. From my experience in Stax decks they achieve plenty of time to kill the opponent, so you arent exactly in a rush. thats about all that i think hasnt been said, the wrest of the deck is pretty solid.