Play Scenario 4: MDG Hand

[Smmenen]

Turn One I played:

Island, Sol ring, Mana Vault

Turn Two, I just played Brainstorm.

A) What do you put back and

B) What do you do the rest of the turn?

[kirdape3]

Against this specific deck, I'd put back Recoup underneath Underground Sea.  Then, I'd lay Academy down and tap Mana Vault and Academy (3UU) for Tinker -> Colossus and Time Walk.  That gives them exactly one turn to live and I doubt they'll kill you from 19 in that time.

[Sextiger]

Judging by your opponents permanents, they are playing bazaar madness, which I believe doesn't run Force of Will.
I would put back recoup since you have no red mana atm and merchant scroll.
I'm pretty sure casting Tinker (saccing mana vault) for Darksteel Colossus is the right play since madness has no way to get rid of him nor could they race him. If they do have a way to stop him, you have force of will and then mana drain.  After you cast him,  cast your time walk and that should be game.

[Smmenen]

But what if you Tinker for Lotus - how would you go FTW?

[Methuselahn]

I would do what Rian suggested.


Why would you tinker for lotus and try to go for the win this turn?  It's tons easier to screw up going for the Tendrils win turn 2 instead of safely sitting on multiple counters with Colossus staring him down on Turn 2. 

[Smmenen]

Part of the lesson is first to see whats possible.   The question is to first see how far we can go and then fall back on TInker + Time Walk only if it is clearly the best play.  But how do we know what the best play is for sure until we know what we are capable of doing?

[Sextiger]

As I mentioned, it seems very clear that you are playing against Bazaar Madness which usually runs only R/G.  The only possible answer they could have for Darksteel Colossus is maybe MD artifact mutation which only stalls you for one turn.  If you try to go off for next turn, they could drop something like null rod or root maze and shut your mana down.

[Billy Bones]

Here is what you do:

Put back Force of Will and Mana Drain.

Tap Sol Ring and Mana Vault, play Tolarian Academy and tap that as well.    floating.

Tinker, sacrificing Mana Vault, for Black Lotus and sac lotus for blue.    floating.

Merchant Scroll for Gifts Ungiven and cast it.  floating.

Gifts for:
Lotus Petal
Mox Ruby
Mox Jet
Yawgmoth's Will

There are two basic scenarios.  Cast one of the mana sources they give you and play Time Walk. 

It doesn't matter what they give you, just don't sac Lotus Petal.  The only time you'd sac Lotus Petal is if it were the only mana source, meaning they gave you Yawgmoth's Will in hand, in which case it wouldn't matter.  Also, they are forced to give you either Yawgmoth's Will or a red source, and you already have the black source with the Underground Sea in hand.

For the sake of discussion, we'll assume the scenario that makes it most difficult to combo out.  They give you Mox Ruby and Mox Jet.

You move to your time walk turn.

Play Mox Ruby or Mox Jet (whichever you didn't cast last turn when you played Time Walk), and Underground Sea.  Spell count 1, nothing floating.

Tap Sol Ring, Mox Ruby, Mox Jet, and Island to cast Recoup targeting Yawgmoth's Will and Yawgmoth's Will.  Spell count 3, nothing floating.

Cast Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, and Mana Vault off the Underground Sea.  Spell count 6, nothing floating.

Tap Tolarian Academy and Mana Vault.  Spell count 6, floating.

Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor, cast Mystical Tutor getting either Burning Wish or Tendrils if you run it.  Spell count 8, floating.

Brainstorm, getting Tendrils/Burning Wish in hand.  Spell count lethal (will be at least 10 after Tendrils is cast),   floating.

Sac Lotus for Black and Lotus Petal for Red.  Spell count lethal, floating.

With that, you have enough mana of the appropriate color to cast either Tendrils of Agony or Burning Wish followed by Tendrils of Agony.

GG.

edit: Steve, we need to talk about my Gifts list.  I think you will like it, and frankly, I am an EXTREMELY profecient gifts player, as I was playing 4 Gifts TPS before MDG even existed.

[betafoil]

alright well if you want to just goldfish your opponent the best way to do it is simply:
1. put back force drain
2. Drop acadamy
3. tap sol ring cast merchant scroll for gifts
4. cast time walk
5. take timewalk turn (draw irrelevant card)
6. play sea
7. tap vault island cast gifts for ruby petal will saphire
8. if you get ruby petal simply crack petal tap sol ring cast tinker for lotus
9. use lotus sea ruby to cast will with recoup
10. replay lotus saphire petal and using the saphire cast vault
11. tap acadamy for 6 and vault for 3
12. using u1 cast merchant scroll for mystical
13. mystical for b-wish
14. brainstorm into b-wish
15. using petal cast b-wish for tendrils
16. cast tendrils off your lotus

note: if you get saphire instead of ruby  or saphire ruby the it should still all work out

now if you assume your opponent has one counter

then the tendrils kill this turn is not that fantastic and you should just go with the easy out of cast tinker walk after putting sea recoup on top and have double counter backup after you untap. Note: you could toss back the drain instead of the recoup and when you untap if you draw a red source you get to recoup walk and win and if you dont then assuming you draw an artifact you will have the mana to scroll a recall and cast it and if you draw a red you still win. As well if you find draw a brainstorm then a red source you can win.

one other thing is that it would be easier to solve if we knew what your opponent discarded, did you opponent pitch any blue cards( if they didnt i would goldfish them if they did i would go with the tinker walk double counter debating heavily on keeping the recoup) 

[Gabethebabe]

There are people that play REB maindeck (and why not) so I would do simply: put back Mana Drain on top of Recoup and play Academy and Walk.
Next turn draw Drain and Tinker with Drain&FoW Backup for the big man and beat them to pulp.

All that goldfishing stuff takes too much energy, I like turning stuff sideways during the declare attackers step.

[FlamingCloud]

Going for the tendril's kill here is just wrong.  You have walk/tinker with FoW backup, followed by drain after you untap.  I don't see how putting back all your counters and going for a tendril's win now is safer then that.   Having the choice between unprotected tendrils kill before they get another turn or double protected tinker giving them 1 turn I think the choice is more than obvious.  If you were an exceedingly cautious player I could see someone casting scroll/walk and going to the next turn, but I think that is overly cautious.  Absolute worst case scenario trying the tinker route is better then absolute worst case scenario trying the tendril's route as well.

[zeus-online]

I'd put recoup and underground sea back, with underground sea at the top of my library. I would then play academy, tinker/time walk with FoW back up (Use academy and mana vault for the mana), and on my time walk turn i'd play the sea, bash for 11 and pass the turn, i find it rather unlikely that they'd be able to kill me with both fow and drain to protect me. You could certainly go for the tendrils route aswell, but why bother ?

/Zeus

[GrandpaBelcher]

Even though you wouldn't necessarily have the Sea to play on your next turn (it gets shuffled away with Tinker) and you're looking at at least three attacks with the Colossus assuming the opponent blocks with a pumped Walla at some point and probably other creatures as well, I think the Colossus plan is probably the strongest.  Taiga makes me worry about Artifact Mutation, but you can counter two of those, and even if they do have REB, you should be able to race.  Plus, if they do manage to hold off Colossus, they'll probably expend huge resources to do it, and you'll be better able to recover than they will because your cards are stronger.

[Billy Bones]

Going for the tendril's kill here is just wrong.  You have walk/tinker with FoW backup, followed by drain after you untap.  I don't see how putting back all your counters and going for a tendril's win now is safer then that.   Having the choice between unprotected tendrils kill before they get another turn or double protected tinker giving them 1 turn I think the choice is more than obvious.  If you were an exceedingly cautious player I could see someone casting scroll/walk and going to the next turn, but I think that is overly cautious.  Absolute worst case scenario trying the tinker route is better then absolute worst case scenario trying the tendril's route as well.

Notice how the original question posed by Steve was whether or not it would be possible to win this turn.  If you don't give your opponent a chance to live, they can't give you a chance to die.  Plus, given the opponent's board, it's a fairly safe assumption that if you can win, you will (ie no counterspells).

If I'm still missing something then explain this question to me: Why win in a few turns when you can win NOW?

[Sextiger]

Since were assuming its a real match, then its much more likely for us to screw up, we wouldn't have the time to figure out the perfect play to figure out like we do safely from our homes. Tinker/Time Walk is an easy play that pretty much guarantees the match, you can't screw that up.

[zeus-online]

Even though you wouldn't necessarily have the Sea to play on your next turn (it gets shuffled away with Tinker)

Oh yeah, forgot....I was pretty sleepy when i wrote it

Well dosnt matter, it wasnt THAT important to my plan anyways.

They got 1 shot at artifact mutation...Even if they do the Reb thing i'll still win before they get to do much.

Say, they reb, i fow, untap, swing, pass...now if they want to cast artifact mutation they're gonna need a non-waste land...so i WILL have my drain up...if we assume that they want to pump the rootwalla, they'll have tied up their mana to do so, which wastes their entire turn.

/Zeus

[Billy Bones]

Since were assuming its a real match, then its much more likely for us to screw up, we wouldn't have the time to figure out the perfect play to figure out like we do safely from our homes. Tinker/Time Walk is an easy play that pretty much guarantees the match, you can't screw that up.

I beg to differ.  To start off, a good Gifts player doesn't screw up but rather wins.  Second, part of being a good Gifts player is knowing your deck perfectly and knowing before you even cast Gifts what cards you're going to get and what result they will have.  The way I solved the puzzle is by simply laying out the identical situation with my own Gifts deck at which point the solution just popped into my head.  Tinker/Time Walk is in fact a much more dangerous play, because it gives the opponent an extra turn.  If by some chance they bounce the Colossus then you've wasted not only a turn but one of the most potent spells in the deck (namely Tinker).  The easy play is not always the correct play.

[Polynomial P]

I would put back underground sea with a drain on top. I would then play academy and cast tinker with FOW backup. If they have a REB, then I FOW removing merchant scroll, get Colossus and Time walk. This leaves them with only a few outs. If they do not counter tinker, then I can safely go the route that Billy bones suggested: Tinker for lotus, sac lotus for mercant scroll, gifts...etc. I do not think that the extra underground sea is needed for that kill.

[Methuselahn]

Since were assuming its a real match, then its much more likely for us to screw up, we wouldn't have the time to figure out the perfect play to figure out like we do safely from our homes. Tinker/Time Walk is an easy play that pretty much guarantees the match, you can't screw that up.

I beg to differ.  To start off, a good Gifts player doesn't screw up but rather wins.  Second, part of being a good Gifts player is knowing your deck perfectly and knowing before you even cast Gifts what cards you're going to get and what result they will have.  The way I solved the puzzle is by simply laying out the identical situation with my own Gifts deck at which point the solution just popped into my head.  Tinker/Time Walk is in fact a much more dangerous play, because it gives the opponent an extra turn.  If by some chance they bounce the Colossus then you've wasted not only a turn but one of the most potent spells in the deck (namely Tinker).  The easy play is not always the correct play.

The goal of the match is to win.  If you are holding all the spades, it's going to play out as a win for you, even if it's not this turn.  The notion that you must win before your opponent gets a turn (while playing a deck with FIFTEEN counters(Drain, Fow, MisD, Scrolls)) is ridiculous.

Notice how the original question posed by Steve was whether or not it would be possible to win this turn.  If you don't give your opponent a chance to live, they can't give you a chance to die.  Plus, given the opponent's board, it's a fairly safe assumption that if you can win, you will (ie no counterspells).

See, this is it.

The point of these exercises is to see what is possible.  If you simply go for the easy/moronic way of winning every time its presented to you in testing, you don't learn anything and you never get better at playing the deck.  What if Tinker is NOT in your hand at some point in a tournament, and you need to win with cards like these?  What if you are dead on board and Tinker won't save you?

Perhaps then, the question should be; "How do you goldfish this hand for a Tendrils kill this turn?"  not "What do you do?"  Because really, I'm not fearing Bazaar Madness as a big metagame player right now.  Let's be practical.

[cssamerican]

I would never really do this line of play but people are asking for it

Put back Mana Drain and Force of Will back on top of my library
Play Tolarian Academy
Tap Tolarian Academy put UU in pool
Tap Sol Ring
Mana in pool = 2UU
Play Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor
Mana in pool = 1U
Play Time Walk

Time Walk Turn:
During upkeep tap Island
Play Mystical Tutor for Yawgmoth’s Will

First Main Phase
Play and Tap Underground Sea
Tap Tolarian Academy
Tap Mana Vault
Tap Sol Ring
Mana in pool = 5UUU; Storm = 1
Play Tinker for Black Lotus
Mana in pool = 3UU; Storm = 2
Sacrifice Black Lotus for BBB
Mana in pool = 3UUBBB; Storm = 2
Play Yawgmoth’s Will
Mana in pool = 1UUBB Storm = 3
Play Mana Vault from yard and Tap
Mana in pool = 3UUBB Storm = 4
Play Black Lotus from yard for RRR
Play Mystical Tutor from yard
Put Burning Wish on top of library
Mana in pool = 3RRRUBB Storm = 6
Play Brainstorm from yard
Mana in pool = 3RRRBB Storm = 7
Play Burning Wish for Tendrils of Agony
Mana in pool = 2RRBB Storm = 8
Play Recoup targeting Merchant Scroll
Mana in pool = 2BB Storm = 9
Play Tendrils of Agony for the Win

[zeus-online]

I think the tinker/time walk scenario is much easier to pull off, and less likely to be disrupted since you've got FoW and drain to protect it with. (Easier as in, you are more likely to figure the play out and play it perfectly in the middle of a tourney)

But as you said, you'd never do it!

/Zeus

[DoubleDrain]

I think I would put back the sea and the recoup, with sea on top. Then, drop academy and tap it and sol ring for 2UU and cast time walk. Next, I would scroll up ancestral and take my walk turn. On my next turn, I would draw a card and tap some mana and ancestral and tinker (in that order), leaving at least drain + force up, and hopefully more from the ancestral. I see no reason to try to win big at this point. Maybe it's just my play style, but if you are always looking for a flashy tendrils kill then maybe you should play grim long or something...

As many have pointed out, there may be an "instant" win there, but to me, there is no reason to go balls out right now. MDG is the CONTROL deck here, and based on the board position right now, and the limited info I have about my opponent's deck, I am in no hurry to win. Therefore, I would like to milk my role as a control deck and just out draw my opponent with ancestral and then out-bash them with DSC, all with as much counter magic backup as I can draw. If I were in this same game state except that there was lethal combat damage coming my way next turn (say), then clearly a tendrils kill is called for.

Some may criticize me for not trying for the "obvious" tendrils kill right away, but it just isn't worth walking into reb + force (although unlikely as there really aren't any "well known" URG madness decks to worry about)...