Field of Dreams / revealed Island / Polluted Delta

[jro]

In the Mindslaver thread, I brought up the following scenario:

Here's a related question: You have Field of Dreams in play (top card of all libraries is face up) and you have an Island on top of your deck.  Can you use a Polluted Delta and fail to find a card to put into play?  That is, is the Island on top of the deck considered to be revealed while the Delta ability is resolving?

At first, I thought you couldn't find it, because your library zone is not revealed.  I've thought it over, and I'm not sure that you can fail to find the Island.  The reason is that zones can have both hidden and non-hidden portions.  For example, you manage to cast a Cranial Extraction during someone's upkeep, and you name a card they have revealed in order to play a Forecast ability, do you have to find the card in their hand?  If they have a second copy of the card in their hand that has not been Forecast, do you have to find that one?  Either way, it's the card itself that is revealed, not the zone as a whole.  I'd say that the answers are yes and no, respectively.  One is in a revealed portion of the hand zone, one is hidden.

So the question is, is the top card of a libary considered to still be revealed while the library is being searched, or no?  Does a library have no top card while being searched?  Is every card the top card?  I'm inclined to think that the library is an ordered zone, and that you don't change the order of the zone until instructed to shuffle the library.  Therefore, while you are searching for something with Polluted Delta, the Island stays on top, stays revealed, and therefore must be found.

Someone could test how this is coded on MTGO by using Wizened Snitches, Farseek, and some basic lands.  I don't have an account, so I can't.

However this particularly question turns out, I think the official definition of search needs to be changed to account for the fact that zones can have hidden and non-hidden portions.

7/15/2006 While searching your library, you must keep your library in the same order until you shuffle it. This order could matter if you tap Millikin for mana, for example, to pay for a Panglacial Wurm you play from your library.

I'm sure you could create a real nightmare scenario involving casting Panglacial Wurm, Cranial Extraction, Future Sight, and Millikin, but I'll just leave that be for now.

[The Atog Lord]

The rule is that you may fail to find any card, if there is a restriction on the card. So, yes, you may still fail to find.

[jro]

The rule is that you may fail to find any card, if there is a restriction on the card. So, yes, you may still fail to find.

The rules state that you may fail to find a card "if you're required to search a zone not revealed to all players for cards of a given quality".  So the questions here are 1) What happens when a zone contains both revealed and non-revealed portions?  Based on what I've heard about rulings with Wishes, I think that you have to find a card with the matching quality if one exists in a revealed zone.  I can't find any of these rulings at the moment.  2) Is the top card of your library still revealed while you are searching your library?  I think it is, because library order is maintained until the library is shuffled.

[Roxas]

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.  Cards in your library are cards in your library, regardless of whether or not cards are revealed, and, when speaking of conditional searches, the library is always a "hidden zone" regardless of whether or not any number of cards are revealed or known.  A "zone revealed to all players" or "public zone" refers specifically to in play, the stack, the graveyard, and (usually) RFG; the hand, library, and sideboard are always "hidden zones," even if any part of them is revealed or known to all players.

Again, there's a slight chance that I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure about this.

[ashiXIII]

If you're looking through a library for a card that requires a quality then you can always fail to find. However, if all you're looking for is a card (IE Demonic Tutor) then you have to find one. If you're looking for some number of cards without a specific quality (IE Intuition) then you must find the number of cards if there are that many in the library. In the hand example, you can never fail to find.

[Roxas]

Actually, you can fail to find cards in hand with, say, Cranial Extraction, because the hand is still considered a hidden zone.  The only cards named by Cranial Extraction that must be found are those in the graveyard.  (Note that you can't fail to find with Duress, because it says "choose," not "search.")

[jro]

Roxas, do you have anything you can point me towards that supports your argument?  Even if your conclusion is correct, I'm not convinced by your argument because 1) the term "hidden zone" is not used in the rules defintion of "search" and 2) I don't see why the hand is to be considered a "hidden zone" without regard to what's in play.  The rules say "a zone not revealed to all players".  If Zur's Weirding is in play, then each player's hand is "revealed to all players".  So if Weirding is in play, and I Cranial Extraction you for a card in your hand, I don't see how I can fail to find that card.

[Roxas]

The only thing I can really point you to is #mtgjudge on EFNet on IRC.  I'm sure eventually some of the judges here on TMD will eventually comment on this too.

Also, in SCG's "Ask the Virtual Judge," search for "Cranial Extraction."  You'll find this:

Q: After naming a card with Cranial Extraction, you are allowed within the rules to intentionally not find the named card in private places (i.e. library, hand) but you have to remove cards from public places (i.e. graveyard). What is a card on the top of your library considered if it is being shown to all players, via Future Sight? Can you still choose not to find it?

A: You can still choose to not find this card, even if it is in plain sight. This is because even though it is revealed it is still in a hidden zone.

Basically, the idea is that cards in a zone being revealed does not change its status as public or hidden.

[Apollyon]

Roxas, do you have anything you can point me towards that supports your argument?  Even if your conclusion is correct, I'm not convinced by your argument because 1) the term "hidden zone" is not used in the rules defintion of "search" and 2) I don't see why the hand is to be considered a "hidden zone" without regard to what's in play.  The rules say "a zone not revealed to all players".  If Zur's Weirding is in play, then each player's hand is "revealed to all players".  So if Weirding is in play, and I Cranial Extraction you for a card in your hand, I don't see how I can fail to find that card.

1) 'Hidden zone' is shorthand for "A zone that is not revealed to all players." It's a way to abbreviate a commonly-used phrase while having it maintain meaning.

2) Zur's Weirding + Cranial Extraction requires you to find the cards in their hand. Hands are revealed to all players.

The only thing I can really point you to is #mtgjudge on EFNet on IRC.  I'm sure eventually some of the judges here on TMD will eventually comment on this too.

Also, in SCG's "Ask the Virtual Judge," search for "Cranial Extraction."  You'll find this:

Q: After naming a card with Cranial Extraction, you are allowed within the rules to intentionally not find the named card in private places (i.e. library, hand) but you have to remove cards from public places (i.e. graveyard). What is a card on the top of your library considered if it is being shown to all players, via Future Sight? Can you still choose not to find it?

A: You can still choose to not find this card, even if it is in plain sight. This is because even though it is revealed it is still in a hidden zone.

Basically, the idea is that cards in a zone being revealed does not change its status as public or hidden.

You are correct in that cards in a zone being revealed doesn't change its status. If there is one card in a library and Field of Dreams out, you can still fail to find for Extraction.

However, Zur's Weirding says

Zur's Weirding {3U} |Enchantment| Players play with their hands revealed. / If a player would draw a card, he or she reveals it instead. Then any other player may pay 2 life. If a player does, put that card into its owner's graveyard. Otherwise, that player draws a card.

The "play with their hands revealed" causes the hand to become a publicly revealed zone.

[jro]

Okay, now I'm convinced.