Can Jotun Grunt put itself to the bottom of your library?

[Khahan]

Jotun Grunt:

Cumulative upkeep-Put two cards in a single graveyard on the bottom of their owner's library. (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)


In response to the cum upkeep trigger, my opponent plays diabolic edict. I sac the grunt. The trigger then resolves.
Assming there was already at least 1 counter on the grunt, do I still have the choice to put cards on the bottom of a library?

I believe I do, as the game would use last known info to determine how many counters were there and ability would exist independant of  its source and resolve doing as much as possible.

Right?

[parallax]

Yes, you can do that. How quirky.

Note: As you've said, you would pay the same cost you paid last turn, as the Grunt never received a counter this turn.

[Darkenslight]

I don't think it can, mainly because all targets for triggered abilities are declared when the ability is put onto the stack (Rule 409.1c - shown below):

'If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces the targets themselves. A player can’t play a spell or ability unless he or she chooses the required number of legal targets. The same target can’t be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word “target” on the spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word “target” in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word “target” (as long as it fits the targeting criteria).'

So you can't actually do that: even though Rule 409.1c is meant for playing spells and activated abilities, it is referenced by rule 410.4, which states that:

'When a triggered ability goes on the stack, the controller of the ability makes any choices that would be required while playing an activated ability, following the same procedure (see rule 409, “Playing Spells and Activated Abilities”). If no legal choice can be made (or if a rule or a continuous effect otherwise makes the ability illegal), the ability is simply removed from the stack.'

[Komatteru]

Jotun Grunt does not target cards in the graveyard.  If it did, there would be chaos.  Target two cards, and before that trigger resolves, those cards somehow disappear from the graveyard (Welder, Reclaim, whatever).  Then you have a problem: the tigger would be countered upon resolution, but the question becomes, did you pay the upkeep cost?  You could say no, but that would be stupid.  If it's yes, then you have paid an upkeep cost without actually paying it, since you actually didn't put the cards on the bottom of the library.

[parallax]

Jotun Grunt does not target cards in the graveyard.  If it did, there would be chaos.  Target two cards, and before that trigger resolves, those cards somehow disappear from the graveyard (Welder, Reclaim, whatever).  Then you have a problem: the tigger would be countered upon resolution, but the question becomes, did you pay the upkeep cost?  You could say no, but that would be stupid.  If it's yes, then you have paid an upkeep cost without actually paying it, since you actually didn't put the cards on the bottom of the library.

You are correct, Jötun Grunt does not target. If a cumulative upkeep cost did target, but the target became illegal after the ability was put on the stack, then the whole cumulative upkeep trigger would be countered on resolution. Thus, you would not add a counter and would not sacrifice the permanent. Probably explains why Wizards doesn't print targeted cumulative upkeep costs.

Jötun Grunt can put itself on the bottom of a library, aong with as many cards necessary to satisfy all the age counters it had before it died. If you cannot meet the required number of cards, then it cannot put any cards on the bottom of a library.

[The Chosen One]

Hold on a sec... When you pay the upkeep cost, you do not get to pick which cards go to the bottom of the library?

[Khahan]

Hold on a sec... When you pay the upkeep cost, you do not get to pick which cards go to the bottom of the library?

Yes you do pick. But you pick on resolution of the ability.  The cards are not targetted, there fore you do not announce which ones  you are going put back when the ability goes on the stack.

[The Chosen One]

Yes you do pick. But you pick on resolution of the ability. The cards are not targetted, there fore you do not announce which ones you are going put back when the ability goes on the stack.

ok just so I have this right. Let's bring up this scenarion:

It is my upkeep and I control grunt with it's first counter being put on it this turn. I announce that I am going to pay its cost targetting my opponents grave. Can they in response say:cast brainstorm or another cantrip to dregde and theorectially put a gaea's blessing into their grave. Now the upkeep is unpayable since their grave has no targets.

Is that correct?

[parallax]

You don't target anything.

You announce that you are paying the Grunt's upkeep. In response, they can do whatever they want. Then, you choose any two cards from either graveyard and put them on the bottom of their owner's library. If your opponent has no graveyard, you can choose two cards from your graveyard.

You only choose what cards from which graveyards will be removed when the ability resolves.

[Komatteru]

It is my upkeep and I control grunt with it's first counter being put on it this turn. I announce that I am going to pay its cost targetting my opponents grave. Can they in response say:cast brainstorm or another cantrip to dregde and theorectially put a gaea's blessing into their grave. Now the upkeep is unpayable since their grave has no targets.

Furthermore, in this scenario, suppose that you had no cards in your graveyard (or only one card).  If they managed to Blessing away their yard in response to the trigger, then you wouldn't be able to pay the upkeep cost by using your opponent's graveyard.  Since you don't have enough cards either, then you have to sacrifice the Grunt.  Too bad.  This is what happens with cards with cumulative upkeep.

[Harlequin]

Additionally, you don't have to make the choice until the ability resolves.  So in the example above, lets say you have Yawg's will in hand, and a mega-meaty graveyard.  Your opponent has a good size graveyard.  When you "announce" that you're paying the cost (assuming from your opponent's graveyard) and then they respond with the dredge->blessing... you are not forced to pay the cost.  You can now re-evaluate your choice to pay or sac.  And at this point the 4/4 might not be as good as lotus and stuff in your yard.  Essentially Cumulative Upkeep goes on the stack and ALL the choices are made when the trigger resolves, including if your going to pay anything or not.