[deck] oath-tyrant

[eightywpm]

Hi everybody,

i\I wanted to propose a new deck idea.  If somebody's had it already then I apologize in advance, but I’ve spent about a week testing and tweaking minor portions of this deck and I wanted to present it to you and ask you all for ideas. 

Here's my list:

// Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

// creatures
1 Tidespout Tyrant

// artifacts
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring


// enchantments
4 Oath of Druids

// spells
1 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Force of Will
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Grim Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Telling Time
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Mind's Desire
1 Deep Analysis
4 Brainstorm

Yep - 61 cards, but it seems to fit well.
The idea is to oath into tyrant, and then to bounce artifacts in and out for infinite spells and as much mana as is needed, and to then play a tendrils or a desire for the win.  The deck runs really well and at least up until this point has surprised everybody with not only its potency but its theme.  I'm not too sure about the sideboard build so far, and I'm welcoming any critique the community has to offer – in fact, that is why I’m posting it here:

// sideboard
1 Rebuild
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Infernal Contract
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Mana Leak
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoinig Truth


What this does is allow the deck to sideboard into either a more traditional oath style deck or into an oathless combo build.  I think that the contracts could and probably should be replaced with grim tutors, but I have not had a chance to test this slot in the sideboard that much; that is part of the reason I am posting this here.

The deck does not seem great on the outside, but when you use it you will notice that you have chances to combo out like traditional long as well as having very effective control card in tyrant if the win conditions are not met – bouncing permanents and then using wheel of fortune makes tyrant very strong.

Play with the deck a little - use it and find its weaknesses!  I want to hear what you all have to say!  Critique it, use it, try it out and let me know how it goes!

[undeniably]

Instead of Spirit of the Night // Akroma, wouldn't you want SSS? Like you'd board out the Tidesprout against decks with StP, right?

[Metman]

My testing partner has been playing a Tyrant Oath build for quite some time, actually since it was first proposed here on TMD.  I can't remember who originally put Tyrant in the build but you should definately search for it. 

In our testing the deck has gone through a lot of changes.  It started as a very combo oriented deck with Cunning Wish grabbing Brain Freeze for a win.  It turned out to be too clunky with over casted spells and Mana Drain.  It has slowly morphed into a deck that is much like standard Oath builds except with two Tyrants instead of Angels.  And you know what, the decks play differently.  The biggest problem with Angels is that they don't do anything on their own but end the game quicker with the attack step.  Now, that doesn't seem too bad but the Tyrants serve as a form of control.  Sometimes things get a little hairy if an Angel is staring down Darksteel.  It may not be a battle the Angel can win.  Also, Tyrant takes care of things like pesky Goblin Welders, Mind Slaver, Ensnaring Bridge, all of Fish's creatures, and even can help keep combo in check by bouncing their land if it comes to that.  In my testing very very rarely do I beat that deck when Tyrant hits the table.

If you decide to test this control route using Tyrant it's important to leave a cheap spell or two in your hand (Duress/Brainstorm/CotV) so that when the Tyrant comes in it's used to its fullest. 

[brianpk80]

Try this link:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29749.0

There were a lot of different perspectives on how to optimize the Tyrant Oath set up.  Personally, if I were to play it today, I would go for a 4x Merchant Scroll build and prison elements rather than combo elements.  Tyrant Oath will never out-combo combo itself so to succeed it needs to play the controller, so items like Chalice of the Void, Root Maze, and Null Rod are very useful.  Also, Intuition is pretty indispensable as a tutor in this type of build. 

Good luck.

-BPK

[eightywpm]

I chose the combo build because when tyrant lands it's usually a same-turn win using the recurring moxes and/or cheap artifacts like sol ring and vault.  This means that often there is a turn 2 win.

Tyrant as control tends to need to run instants, so duress isn't anywhere near as effective as cards like brainstorm and telling time.  I think accumulated knowledge might be a decent fit too, but most of the spells are instants so that I can handle problems as they come up.

As far as the combo matchup goes, I usually sb in the leaks.  One good counterspell stops a combo most times, and smart combo players protect themselves with duress.  It's a tough matchup, but this deck has the potential to go off first turn.  That's why I chose combo over control, and using elements that combo offers with tyrant, it can control too.

Also I spent a significant amount of time away from the game - can anybody let me know what SSS is?  If there are better boarding options than the akroma/spirit, I'd like to know about it. Simic Sky Swallower - 6/6 Flying, Trample, Untargettable.

This deck in testing was weak against the ichorid/cookiemonster and resolved jesters caps.  Planar void tends to hurt too.  I'd be interested if anybody had solutions for those elements.  That might be the reason to go control, but from what I see so far the combo route seems to be stronger, but don't take my word for it - test it out and see how it works for you.

Welcome to TMD! This post has plenty of solid content, but please use capitals and apostrophes in future.
-Godder

[Malhavoc]

Here it is a more control oriented, T1T-like, build which is going well here in italy:

http://www.legavip.it/stat_deck.php?src=mazzi&id_mazzo=526

..compared to my list on the post linked above by another TMD users, it's less combo and more control: overall I've come to prefer the control version, but both have pro and cons, it really depends on play style and metagame. In particular, the above linked list should swamp duress with leak in a metagame with few combo: such thing would also let you run a more stable manabase, running less black.

I've also tried the prison version, but did find it quite weak: it's unable to really lock the opponent without Tyrant, and if you have Tyrant in play, why trying to lock him when you can just win on the spot? However, I'm surely going to keep 3-4 chalice in the side for the combo match: they are wonderful to slow down combo, and you can bounce them back when YOU need to combo out, or you just have to drop some moxen, and then drop back in play the chalice. Versions without duress can also think about playing it for 1, even if that play prevent from playing brainstorm, which is very important in case you have Tyrant in hand (which, however, you happen to even cast sometimes, as you can do with SSS post side).

Planar void can be troublesome, but you can win around it quite easily: you don't really need the grave unless you're going for the YWill win. Ichorid is a nightmare, but I feel like it's that with most of the drain-based deck. Usually you need to mulligan into either pithing needle or oath+orchard, otherwise you risk to be in serious trouble.

[chrissss]

I think the SSS will soon be replaced by the new Akroma, angel of fury. this creature destroys the SSS in the mirror, it can go through Akroma and razia, and it its protected against pretty much every removal spell in VIntage.

Also, why spirit of the knight? without vigilance, its not that good. Razia is so much better.

One tyrant doesnt seem enough. When I tried my tyrant version, I always used 2 (remember its blue, so pitches to FOW, unlike the other oath creatures)

[Hydra]

I think the SSS will soon be replaced by the new Akroma, angel of fury. this creature destroys the SSS in the mirror, it can go through Akroma and razia, and it its protected against pretty much every removal spell in VIntage.

The new Akroma is a slower clock than Triple S is normally, since you don't ever want to use Forbidden Orchard to pump it (new Akroma can't block those tokens like old Akroma can).  Triple S also has the strength of being hardcastable much easier than the New Akroma can be (sure you can morph new Akroma, but you're still stuck waiting for either Lotus or tapping two Orchards to do it).

The mirror is pretty much non-existent in most areas, so arguing that the new Akroma is "better" in that case really isn't saying too much in the way of strengths.  New Akroma also dies to Duplicant, which is one of the main reasons Triple S is the creature of choice when it comes to dodging removal.

The new Akroma might have a place in the meta, but it's probably not going to be in Oath.

[Malhavoc]

Choosing among SSS and red Akroma, you don't need to take in consideration the mirror match: it is very unlikely that both of you are going to activate oath, and in that case Tyrant owns any angel used by your opponent. In any other matchup, I can't see Red Akroma being better: she gives a lower clock, can't be cast directly from hand if needed, it's still vulnerable to some cards (gempalm for example), and can't even be pitched to force if needed. It's not THAT worse, but it's still worse IMHO.

Regarding 1 or 2 Tyrants: generally you can live with only one: if it gets plowshared or something, you can try to counter the spell or cast a brainstorm in response to bounce it put it back on the deck. And if it gets rfg anyway, you can go for the total mill->krosan->Ywill win. Running only one tyrant also makes more likely that you are going to mill one or two deep analysis activating oath, and also frees one slot for useful spells. It's like running one or two tendrils in certain combo decks: it mostly depends on how well you can play the deck with a more limited amount of win conditions.

BTW, if you are afraid of remaining without win condition, maybe due to an Uba mask or Jester Cap and such, I've found useful running one wishable Research and Development in side: it also lets you combo out into an infinite turn combo in case you prefer beating rather than winning by brainfreeze (if your opponent has multiple gaeas blessings, or more likely has DC in the deck, which means even milling his deck would still leave him a turn to try and win, even if in this case it's easier to just force him drawing a card with ancestral or deep; the mirror match against a mirror running krosan too could be a case for the infinite turn combo).

Just for reference, here it is the combo for infinite turns:

- mill whole deck
- flashback krosan, and put back ywill
- cast ywill, play mana, cast walk, cast wish for R&D
- R&D for krosan, ywill, walk, cunning
- attack, do another turn, and repeat from start

[chrissss]

THis deck doesnt have mana drains, so for hardcasting the SSS inst that easy anyway. you need 7 mana to cast it, and if you want to protect it, you need 2 more mana. Akroma doesnt need protection, because it cant be countered. (cotv of 16 anyone )

Obviously Akroma > angel of fury, but I was comparing the SSS to the fury angel in the sideboard.

Both are 6/6, both cant be targeted with the removal used in T1 (except duplicant for the fury). Akroma has the pumb ability, which is pretty much useless, unless your opponent is on 7-8 life, in which case you will kill him one turn before the SSS would. Protection from white and blue is also usefull against fish, or other random T1 decks using fast aggro creatures.


I wasnt really implying that the Angel of fury is better than SSS, but its definately worth trying in the sideboard. I will try it for sure in my Oath deck, and see what happens. I do runs 4 drains though, so SSS will probably stay in, because of the hardcastability factor.

[Imsomniac101]

Here's what I posted in the old thread.

     
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2006, 06:35:59 PM »
On Recycling;
I think Regrowth is weak sauce in this build, it's better than the other recyclers if it's in your hand, but it can't do anything if it's in your grave and it's sort of weak when you Gifts for it.

Reclamation is alright, but it is very slow when you want to combo out now, and you've only had one Oath activation. Only good for comboing out if you run 1 creature, but that leaves you very vulnerable

Recoup is the strongest I believe, however, you can't use it as a safety net, and it is used exclusively to recur will.

Blessing is alright for standard Oath builds, but since we are using Tyrant, we might as well go all out Combo.

Here's the list I ended up with:
//NAME: Tyrant Oath
        2 Tidespout Tyrant
        4 Oath of Druids
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Duress
        1 Recoup
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        3 Cunning Wish
        3 Intuition
        2 Gifts Ungiven
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Tolarian Academy
        2 Flooded Strand
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        1 Island
        1 Volcanic Island
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  1 Brain Freeze
SB:  1 Chain of Vapor
SB:  1 Rebuild
SB:  3 Pithing Needle
SB:  1 Fact or Fiction
SB:  1 Darkblast
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Show and Tell
SB:  1 Tidespout Tyrant

I added the Cunning Wish to give the deck some flexibility and a secondary kill.
Note that I am playing Gifts AND Intuition. Intuition is a better early game tutor and Gifts is the better late game topdeck. The mana curve is quite high, but you usually have enough acceleration. It's funny though, cuz I usually obsess over mana costs.
I relegated Show and Tell to the SB although it is a very good card, serious Oath hate comes in game 2 most of the time and game 1, most opponents are oblivious. I'd love to have a second copy in the board.
I cut the Reclamation because it was dead weight.

The curve of the deck was too high but I think lots can be gleaned from my experiment.

The main problem with all Oath combo builds is that you will be expending a lot of resources just into putting Oath on the table. So what you want from your deck is two things; one, you want it to find and put oath on the table as quickly as possible, and two, you want to be able to combo out after you've expended resources putting Oath out. A secondary concern is protecting Oath and Tyrant, however, that can be solved by the protection/disruption suite. I'm not sure how good MisD is now that the meta has seen a lot of it.

Also Show and Tell is godly in the SB, especially if you are playing B.Wish.