The Fate of Countermagic

[zeus-online]

No forbid isn't overpowered. I consider it a casual card, a good casual card, but still casual.
I'm sure it would see play in the current type two enviroment, but i doubt it would dominate.

/Zeus

[UR]

No, Forbid isn't overpowered and I doubt I would even play it in constructed T2. The drawback is big enough to keep it in check (certainly with a lack of good card-draw aside from some 1/3 creatures that can easily be blasted away in this format). It is more powerful than Cancel, but so is Voidslime and a couple of other counters in the current T2. As long as the drawback is large enough, Wizards doesn't seem bothered by the card.

[zeus-online]

What drawback? There is none.

That's like calling psychatog's abilities "drawbacks"

/Zeus

[UR]

If you aren't going to use it is just a Cancel. If you want to use it's full abilities you'll have a drawback. I know it is a bonus option, but I still call it a drawback because using it nets you -1 cards.

[Illissius]

It's not easy to determine whether R&D intended Cancel as merely a vanilla counter for the base set, to illustrate to new players the principle that hard counters cost at least three mana; or as the future standard by which all other counterspells will be measured. For example: are Dissipate, Forbid, and Hinder fair cards? Is the "correct" cost for Dismiss now , or ?
My personal feeling / fear is that it's the latter, but we can't know for sure until and unless Wizards tells us.

They're totally fine with having weaker and simpler versions of cards in the base set (especially at common/uncommon), and then printing the slightly better versions in expansions.

Look at how Loxodon Warhammer got upgraded to rare when they moved it to the base set, or how there are infinite random vanilla creatures that are just strictly worse than the alternatives (a 2/2 for 1W is worse than one that also sacrifices to kill an enchantment, etc etc).

I'm not sure how much you've noticed, but Wizards tends to not print strictly worse cards in Standard. Every card tends to do something slightly different so that there is no 'Counterspell and Cancel'. You'll notice that Rune Snag and Miscalculation both do different things, even though they are both similar to Mana Leak.

So then. I highly doubt they will print a hard counter plus slight benefit for in the rest of Time Spiral block. Will they print one in the block after that? Or ever again?

[UR]

Just look at Swift Silence. That basically reads; "Counter target spell, draw a card." There are instances where it is a better card than that, but that is pretty rare. It's casting cost is UUW2 so I think that is pretty much where you should search for counters that also draw cards.

[zeus-online]

Having the OPTION of discarding two cards to get it back is a good ability, not a drawback. I don't get it, have you never played a forbid without paying its buyback cost?

/Zeus

[UR]

Having the OPTION of discarding two cards to get it back is a good ability, not a drawback. I don't get it, have you never played a forbid without paying its buyback cost?

/Zeus

Yes, and in that case it is no better than Cancel. Like I said, Wizards is fine with extra options, as long as those options will cost you dearly.

[Jacob Orlove]

They're totally fine with having weaker and simpler versions of cards in the base set (especially at common/uncommon), and then printing the slightly better versions in expansions.

Look at how Loxodon Warhammer got upgraded to rare when they moved it to the base set, or how there are infinite random vanilla creatures that are just strictly worse than the alternatives (a 2/2 for 1W is worse than one that also sacrifices to kill an enchantment, etc etc).

I'm not sure how much you've noticed, but Wizards tends to not print strictly worse cards in Standard. Every card tends to do something slightly different so that there is no 'Counterspell and Cancel'. You'll notice that Rune Snag and Miscalculation both do different things, even though they are both similar to Mana Leak.

So then. I highly doubt they will print a hard counter plus slight benefit for in the rest of Time Spiral block. Will they print one in the block after that? Or ever again?

Yes, they will. Apollyon's quote was addressing expansion sets (the only place where they introduce new cards), while mine was addressing the base set. They have no problem printing stuff in expansion sets that is strictly better than stuff in the base set, but only if the base set card is intentionally simplified and underpowered.

[parallax]

Actually, I think Forbid would be a little on the strong side if it were printed today. It would see plenty of play in Standard if it were reprinted. Not the least of which would be in decks that can use the discard as a benefit instead of a drawback: Solar Flare, Firemane Control, Haakon decks. Also, flashback and madness are in the format.

Forbid was printed when "counter target spell" was a two-mana effect and the graveyard wasn't a particularly useful place for cards.

Having said that, Wizards will still be free to print hard counters with slight advantages, similar to Hinder. They have no problems with strictly-better cards.

Dismiss is likely fair at as well because although cantrips usually add to the mana cost, counterspells are conditional enough to make up for it.

[Ephraim]

Just look at Swift Silence. That basically reads; "Counter target spell, draw a card." There are instances where it is a better card than that, but that is pretty rare. It's casting cost is UUW2 so I think that is pretty much where you should search for counters that also draw cards.

I just wanted to note that this is absolutely untrue.  By the time they were finalizing Dissension, they probably knew with 100% certainty that there would be cards with Storm in Time Spiral.  This means that Swift Silence could be a card that is poor at first blush but which looks somewhat better when you know it might yield quite a large benefit if your opponent ever casts Grapeshot.  (It just occured to me and I find it very interesting that Storm is a red-only mechanic in Time Spiral.  That lends credence to my suggestion that blue/white Swift Silence in Dissension and cards with Storm in Time Spiral were designed in parallel.)

[Jacob Orlove]

Also, they were planning on costing it at like 1WUU or less, but that would have let Sunforger fetch it out, which they really wanted to avoid, so they jacked up the ability and the cost.

[parallax]

I'm just going to back up Ephraim, here: Swift Silence and Dismiss are not comparable. They do very different things.

Here is a breakdown of what I think we can expect to see from counterspells in the future:
: Conditional soft counters. Remand, Mana Leak.
: Hard Counters with significant drawbacks. Muddle the Mixture.
: Strong soft counters or very conditional hard counters. Override, Convolute, Thoughtbind.
: Hard counters with slight benefit. Cancel, Hinder.
: Hard counters with strong benefit. Rewind, Dismiss.

Edit: About Swift Silence: Multi-color messes up the costing as well. They print multi-color cards at lower costs than mono-colored cards because costing two different colors of mana is another drawback.