[Deck] U/W Landstill-Fish

[netherspirit]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I posted a deck here..... Anyways, I've been toying with lots of decks lately, and I'm becoming very fond of this one. It's a bit of a Landstill/Fish mixture. The idea is to control the game while you can, generate ridiculous amounts of card advantage, and eventually start beating down with little critters.

Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria (so broken! )
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra

Critters
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Meddling Mage

Tutors/Draw
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker

Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Others
1 Time Walk
3 Arcane Laboratory

Sideboard
3 Reverence
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disenchant
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Chalice of the Void

So, card explanations (I'm assuming certain ones such as Meddling Mage are obvious).
Strip Mine/Wasteland - This deck needs to disrupt the opponent as much as possible, so that it can get a landstill in quickly, land destruction helps slow the opponent down.
DSC - Big tramply goodness that doesn't go away.
Ninja of the Deep Hours - Nice little draw engine for the late game, I don't have a lot to ninjutsu it in with though, so I may try Ophidian here instead.
Merchant Scroll - Allows me to sit on a counter or draw spell.
Standstill - Just plain stupid! Masses of card advantage, and by time the opponent blows it I'm often sat with a counter or two in hand anyway.
Tinker - Only way to get DSC into play! Originally I was using Disks, and then Masticores, so Tinker had more purpose, but now it's just a DSC tutor.
Counterspell - My mana base just about supports it, and Mana Drain would be pointless beings I have little to spend the mana on, so Counterspell seems the best solution.
Arcane Laboratory - This deck likes playing the control role, so Arcane Lab gives me a better chance with permission spells.
Reverence - Mainly for goblins, can be useful with Fish too though.
Disenchant - Stops Oath and sometimes Stax.
Swords to Plowshares - Best creature removal ever.
Hurkyl's Recall - Stops Stax, especially when there's a Standstill and Arcane Lab out.
Chalice of the Void - Stops any spell I want.

So there it is. You spend the early game in control and aiming to drop a Standstill, from there you're well under way, you can keep dropping Standstills and drawing counters and threats. Anyways, any comments? Thanks in advance guys!

[SiegeX]

Counterspell - My mana base just about supports it, and Mana Drain would be pointless beings I have little to spend the mana on, so Counterspell seems the best solution.

This isn't the first time ive seen this statement, in fact I think I saw it just last week, but I can't even begin to stress how wrong this is.  Honestly, when was the last time you lived long enough to burn yourself out?  Even if you did have a game or two where burn was the deciding factor, more likely than not you were probably going to lose anyway and the extra mana you gained most likely kept you in the game longer.  Remember, this isn't T2 we are playing, saving 4-5 points of burn just to get stormed out for 20 is pointless.

Lets take a look at all the things you have "little to spend mana on"

1 - Sol Ring
1 - Ninjutsux
1 - Standstill
2 - Tinker
1 - Time Walk
2 - Arcane Lab
Infinite - Mishra's Factory !!!!!!!

That looks like a whole lot to me and I would play Mana Drains even if I didn't have the mana sink that is Mishra's Factory to totally negate any burn.  You need only run a simple thought experiment with what kind of damage you can do if your opp just cast smokestack with two blue up, Counterspell,Tinker and Time Walk in hand then replace that counterspell with drain.

Edit
Heh, I just re-read my post and noticed I had a little freudian slip by typing 'ninjutsux.' I must be regressing all the times that little bugger won my opponent the game due to crazy CA

[President Skroob]

Or, on the other hand, if you decide not to go for Mana Drain, wouldn't Mana Leak or Rune Snag be more of an ease on the manabase of your deck? Counterspell is certainly a hard counter, but early game being able to branch out into another color or utility with Mishra's Factory could be a boon. At least, I would think so.

[netherspirit]

Or, on the other hand, if you decide not to go for Mana Drain, wouldn't Mana Leak or Rune Snag be more of an ease on the manabase of your deck? Counterspell is certainly a hard counter, but early game being able to branch out into another color or utility with Mishra's Factory could be a boon. At least, I would think so.

I did consider them, but the mana base is actually very stable, I'm often able to gets the UU i need for Counterspell on turn 2. I'm going to give Mana Drain a try, but I'm still sceptical.

[Zarathustra]

I did consider them, but the mana base is actually very stable, I'm often able to gets the UU i need for Counterspell on turn 2. I'm going to give Mana Drain a try, but I'm still sceptical.

How are you skeptical of Mana Drain?  It's the best counterspell in the game.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I did consider them, but the mana base is actually very stable, I'm often able to gets the UU i need for Counterspell on turn 2. I'm going to give Mana Drain a try, but I'm still sceptical.

How are you skeptical of Mana Drain?  It's the best counterspell in the game.

And the relevance of your opinion to the task at hand?

You're missing some of the control elements that Landstill had to have in order to maintain its grip on the board, ie Larry Niven's Disk and/or Akroma's Vengeance. Do you find that you have trouble with Fish/ Aggro strategies? Ninja of the Deep definitely needs to be Phid... And if that's the case, then yes, Mana Drain is a better answer than Counterspell. Also, I couldn't help but notice that outside of your own Tinker, do you have an answer to the iron giant? A bounce spell could come in very handy. Or, if you want to keep the utility in the sideboard- Cunning Wish perhaps?

[netherspirit]

I did consider them, but the mana base is actually very stable, I'm often able to gets the UU i need for Counterspell on turn 2. I'm going to give Mana Drain a try, but I'm still sceptical.

How are you skeptical of Mana Drain?  It's the best counterspell in the game.

I already answered that..

I did consider them, but the mana base is actually very stable, I'm often able to gets the UU i need for Counterspell on turn 2. I'm going to give Mana Drain a try, but I'm still sceptical.

How are you skeptical of Mana Drain?  It's the best counterspell in the game.

And the relevance of your opinion to the task at hand?

You're missing some of the control elements that Landstill had to have in order to maintain its grip on the board, ie Larry Niven's Disk and/or Akroma's Vengeance. Do you find that you have trouble with Fish/ Aggro strategies? Ninja of the Deep definitely needs to be Phid... And if that's the case, then yes, Mana Drain is a better answer than Counterspell. Also, I couldn't help but notice that outside of your own Tinker, do you have an answer to the iron giant? A bounce spell could come in very handy. Or, if you want to keep the utility in the sideboard- Cunning Wish perhaps?

I did run the Disk originally but it was usually just sat in my hand, if I add Mana Drain though I will try the Disk again, would Oblivion Stone maybe be better though? I don't really need much on the field, so I think Oblivion Stone may prove to be more effective, I'll just have to try them both I guess. Very good call on the Cunning Wish, I think it'll be very useful!
Thanks for the help everyone!!!!

Netherspirit

[Harlequin]

@ Drain v Counterspell
Firstly you have 28 mana sources, of which 11 are colorless.  With such a mightly colorless base (which includes sol ring??) it is almost impossible to claim that you don't have use for the colorless.  If you truely do not, then you should cut back some colorless manas.

@ Sol Ring in general
You can probably aford to cut this guilt free.  I am a firm beliver that any deck running Drain should always run Lotus, Sapphire, and Lotus Petal (in order of importance).  Pearl is nice, Sol ring is weak, but neither give you turn 1 drain mana.  If your simply filling an artifact slot for Tinker.  I would go with 0 drops first - Petal, Crypt, Mox Diamond (not bad when your running 25 lands), Chrome mox... all before 1 drops: sol ring, mana vault.

@Manlands, Wastelands, and LOA oh my!
I think one of the biggest chalanges with U/W fish builds is that they typically cannot run too many colorless lands.  Now granted, that is in a 22-23 mana deck, I would suggest running no more than 4-5 colorless lands.  Leaveing 18 or so colored lands/artifact mana.  You still have 19 colored sources so your probably ok.  Which bring up the point of:  almost half your deck is lands.  Sure, thats really cool of Standstill stays unbroken for a few turns... you get your land drops, etc.  But good players will not stand around and let you get board from standstill.  They will simply bust that thing and gladly fill your hand with lands. 

@ 8 counterspells:
8 is probably way too few for a control deck in which standstill is engin of choice.  Daze should be considered.  Its another "free" counterspell, that will beat a player who pops Standstill imediatly while you are tapped out from playing it.

@ OMG 3 Ninjas!
4 Ninjas is probably the right number.  Manland -> ninja doesn't break standstil... but it almost forces your opponent to break it.  If your playing against someone who is reluctant to break it, then Ninja will win you the game faster and more assuredly.

[netherspirit]

Right, I've been trying Mana Drain, and to be honest it's OK but nothing spectacular, I;m not going to re-cut it yet though.
@Harlequin: You bring up some good points, but there is one thing I think you're missing.

@ Drain v Counterspell
Firstly you have 28 mana sources, of which 11 are colorless. With such a mightly colorless base (which includes sol ring??) it is almost impossible to claim that you don't have use for the colorless. If you truely do not, then you should cut back some colorless manas.

You're forgetting that unlike Mana Drain, my colorless sources don't force me to add mana to my mana pool, I do it at my own choice, unlike Mana Drain which actually makes you, and therefore can lead to mana burn a lot of the time.

About the Ninja's: I scrapped them, Ophidian is working MUCH better.

[GUnit]

I'm tempted to say that you should switch your 3 MD arcane labs for your SB 3 chalices. Chalice seems more generally useful, and it is congruent with your mana denial strategy.
Also, you seem to have about 3 too many mana sources. My suggestion is the following:

-1 island
-1 plains
-1 sol ring
-3 arcane lab (moved to SB)

+4 chalice of the void
+2 crucible of worlds

Crucible of worlds seems like a perfect fit for your deck with 5 wastes, manlands that you wan't to keep alive, fetchlands that you can reuse and a loa that you want to protect. These changes also net you +5 artifacts which strengthens tinker (and even gives you an alternative tinker target to DSC, given the correct gamestate for a strip/CoW lock).


One other thing I'd like to add is that you may be interested in checking out bomberman if you like control decks that beat down. It's an interesting and powerful deck.