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Author Topic: VOTE  (Read 5475 times)
nataz
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« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2006, 12:23:46 am »

Not quite true. If you don't vote, you are essentially voting for the status quo.
No, if you wanted to vote for the status quo, you'd, you know, actually vote for the status quo. By not voting, you're actively asking politicians to ignore you, and reducing the power of the electorate in favor of special interest groups. Even voting nothing but write-ins is better than not voting at all.

Only if you want to change anything. My statement was more of a broad view in that;

a) to vote assumes either a vote for change, or a vote for no change
b) to not vote is to assume that you either 
    i ) don't care (and therefore don't mind the status quo by definition)
    ii) don't believe in the system, in which case see my previous statement (move/fight)

You can claim to be a rebel and be all about snubbing the system, but you still live within the system by choice. If you are over 18, no one is keeping you in the states. You aren't willing to sacrifice anything to change the system, and you certainly won't work it from the inside, therefore I still claim you as section i. People can write/confess/tirade all they want; if you want change bad enough you will do something about it (section ii).

Let the blood run free over the tree of revolution. Don't pay taxes, go to prison, and fight the man. Move out of the country. Do something, anything, if you feel that strongly I beg you. Sit in the streets, organize a protest, march on the capital, chain yourself to a tree; whatever. Heck, put down the cards, and pick up an AK-47,  you wouldn't be the first in the world, and I doubt you will be the last.

You are either the lamb or the bird of prey. You are either the priest, or you are the warrior. Either you accept the shackles, or you don't. Like it or not, there is no angst-y middle gray area.

There are two ways to change the status quo. Fight (physically or metaphorically) or vote against it. Not voting is a vote for it.


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Democracy is the worst system in the world, except for all the other systems we've tried so far.

I disagree. In the short term, with enough overt control, I've always been a fan of the philosopher king theory. Many pre-democratic systems have used some form of this as a transition period from X -> Y. See Russia for example.

Still further, military dictatorships, and mandates from "God" have all been very successful during different periods in time.

Systems are hard to measure in best -> worst terms with out some sort of criteria. Are we talking about natural human rights (ha, ha, ha, don't get me started on cultural relevancy), are we talking about duration of time, are we talking about productivity, etc. ? 

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Also, I agree with ELD that some of the positions that are elected amazes me - you guys elect judges, which I think is bad times, since modern elections often involve things that have nothing to do with the position up for grabs.

I think Brown handled this well. It's not a perfect solution, but there is a reason for it. It's not like lifetime appointments don't have their drawbacks as well.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 12:33:56 am by nataz » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2006, 02:48:08 am »

I'd just like to congratulate the electorate.  By all accounts, a lot of places saw record turnout this election season.  I know here in VA we had 51% turnout, which is spectacular for a midterm election.  Good job voting folks. 
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« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2006, 07:42:05 am »

Not to bring too much cynicism to this thread, but in many instances where one candidate loses by a thin margin, courts and legalities are involved in the interest of "truth" (read: government corruption). Sometimes, the election results are upheld (Gejdenson v. Munster). But, just brace yourselves for the comming frivolous lawsuits which will, very likely, ensue over the next few weeks.
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2006, 01:31:42 pm »

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But, just brace yourselves for the comming frivolous lawsuits which will, very likely, ensue over the next few weeks.

Oh, both sides will be throwing fits in Virginia and Montana in T-5, 4, 3, 2...
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2006, 01:53:30 pm »

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But, just brace yourselves for the comming frivolous lawsuits which will, very likely, ensue over the next few weeks.

Oh, both sides will be throwing fits in Virginia and Montana in T-5, 4, 3, 2...

Well, not necessarily in Virginia.  I believe that the last recount in Virginia ended up with a differential from the initial count of only 27 votes, so there's a reasonable basis to assume that Webb's victory will stand, and that the inevitable recounts results will be legitimate.
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« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2006, 06:27:28 pm »

We don't elect all judges. In fact they're almost all unelected, appointed officials. Here in Texas we do elect them, but in most states they don't, and the highest court (The Supreme Court) is all appointees.

That's one thing about the USA: each state is still free to do what it wants to a remarkable degree.

Also, an interesting take on the "third parties" argument can be found here.
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« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2006, 09:06:30 pm »

In case for some reason you're coming here for your election news, Tester wins in MT (pending any recount request from Burns, which it looks like would be futile), and Webb wins VA, as Allen is disinclined to ask for a recount unless the margin changes significantly in the next day.
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2006, 09:36:53 pm »

What about this:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061108/NEWS99/61108027

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[My wonderful University of Michigan President Mary Sue] Coleman says she has questions as to whether the ban is lawful, particularly as it pertains to higher education.

I have no idea how she plans to do this.  She has to show that the law should have never been on the ballot in the first place, as she can't very well overturn a voter's decision because she doesn't like it.  I'm pretty sure she's not going to find a clause in the Michigan Constitution that says that the state has a duty to ensure that minorities receive "bonus points."  The way affirmative action has been justified in the past is that they've used an argument about "a compelling need of the state for diversity," with emphasis on the compelling need of the state.  The trouble is, the compelling needs of the state change with time, and since there's not likely to be any mention of "diversity" in the constitution, she's going to have a whole lot of trouble fighting this.  I'm no legal  expert (DA? some help here?), but I think there's a huge difference in showing that something is lawful--that is, it is consistent with a sound interpretation of the written law--vs. showing something is unlawful--that is, there is a written law that contradicts it.  Intrepretations are just that, so there is greater subjectivity in that regard, but showing a direct contradiction is a little more objective.

That the proposition passed should not be surprising.  Michigan's demographics are largely white blue-collar workers, who get the true shaft when it comes to affirmative action.  Rich white suburban kids can mostly overcome any sort of bonus given to underprivilaged minority students by paying for better training and throwing more money at their own education.  They lose when there are minority students of the same economic status, but, that seems to comprise a minority of the minority.  However, if you have an underprivilaged white kid and an underprivilaged minority student (say they even go to the same school), the minority student gets the boost because of his race, while the white kid will get no such bonus because he is white.  Instead of "bringing the white rich down to a more level playing field," affirmative action actually most hurts the moderately- and under-privilaged white class because it takes most directly from them--that is, the people receiving the biggest benefits from affirmative action are within the same economic tier, with opportunities limited by the same financial limitations.  When the bulk of your voters fall into the moderately- and underprivilaged white class, that such a motion passed is not at all surprising.

As a closing, I'll take one last shot at "diversity."  No one has bothered to define the term, and thus, it is largely a sham word used to cover up guilt (as I explained in that other post).  To say "we want cultural diversity" but limit oneself to looking in the same country, making the assumption (or the hope) that people who look different think differently as well, is pretty absurd.  It's really like saying "we want cultural diversity, but only if that diversity is a subset of American culture." If people were interested in true cultural diversity, the biggest bonuses would have to be given to international students, since, if you are interested in bringing other cultures and different mindsets to the table, someone from another country is clearly going to bring a grossly different state of mind to the table than anyone who lives in America, regardless of whether they have the same color skin or the same facial structure.  However, that would basically be educating the rest of the world at the cost of our own students, and no American wants that, so they made up some half-ass definition of "diversity" to cover what they wanted to achieve.  Hell, people are often a little upset when I tell them that my graduate classes are comprised of approximately 60-75% foreign nationals, feeling that we are "educating the rest of the world"--the true reality of it is that American students just largely don't go to graduate school in very high percentages.  Because nations such as India and China have either few graduate schools (not enough space to accomodate all the students who want to go), or a lack of quality graduate schools, and our schools here aren't being filled by Americans, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the percentage is as high as it is.  (Japan has a lot of high quality universities, and can accomodate its population, and that's a big reason why you don't see Japanese students at American universities in remotely the same numbers as students from India and China.  Same thing goes for countries like England, Germany, and many other European nations.)

Of course, in some fields, "diversity" is completely irrelevant.  Engineering and science, in particular.  Does a black person formulate and solve equations differently or something?  Different is irrelevant.  "Correct" is what matters there.  I can't, for the life of me, figure out why someone might think that a person from China would write a proof different from me because he is from China.  In scientific fields, all that matters are the minds, and whatever host that mind is carried in is irrelevant.  If he is smarter than me, he will have better insight into problems.  He will not gain anything on me, nor I on him, because we were raised in different cultures.  Of course, there's ethics, but those are amazingly less variant from culture to culture when it comes to professional situations than one might expect.  Embezzling company funds?  Hiding evidence that a product will harm consumers?  Any reasonable culture is going to find those things wrong.  After that, it is a matter of personal integrity to act on one's beliefs, and that's something that culture cannot control.

Continuing to use the word "diversity" amounts to not admitting the full reality.  What's wrong with saying what we really mean?  If there is a compelling need for affirmative action because of guilt, let's admit that, and use the proper word.  Let's not mask what we really mean with an abstract concept that generates a contradiction before we even get out of the gate.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2006, 09:49:31 pm by JDizzle » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2006, 09:52:19 pm »

Man, I didn't know that was on the ballot, but I'm wicked happy to hear that. This is great news. Affirmative action is the worst thing to happen to minorities since Jim Crow.

That's right, it really hurts minorities. Why? Because it tells people that they aren't good enough. It tells people that the color of their skin prohibits them from competing on a level playing field. It tells people that they need to be given a special boost just because they are of a certain race. The entire concept of affirmative action is an insult to the intelligence and capability of anyone of a minority race.

But it does not end there. It isn't content simply to "help" minorities. It applies to some minorities but not to others, in an arbitrary way. As an American of Christian Middle Eastern descent, I'm quite an under-represented minority. How many Middle Eastern Christians have you ever met, anyways? Syria and Lebannon are mostly Muslim now, and Constantinople fells centuries ago. We're not exactly common. But then, I am just considered white on the forms.

Our country has a terrible history regarding race. Every single time the government or any institution makes race a factor in any decision, it has ended badly, from slavery to interning Japanese citizens to the current affirmative action movement.

To quote Martin Luther King:

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I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."...I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
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« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2006, 10:12:45 pm »

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Our country has a terrible history regarding race. Every single time the government or any institution makes race a factor in any decision, it has ended badly, from slavery to interning Japanese citizens to the current affirmative action movement.

Ours is certainly not alone.  In fact, finding a country that does not have a terrible history regarding race (or religion, back when the distinction was explicitly made) is quite a feat.  My question is really: are we the only country that has an affirmative action program (can some of our European members tell us about such programs, if they exist, in their countries)?
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« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2006, 10:41:54 pm »

I'm going to have to close this thread.
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