[Deck:Mono Black Fish]

[Guli]

before leyline of the void came out i was testing a discard deck (i also posted it i remember). One of the problems was the grave hate. Ichorid inspired me with Chalice/Leyline. I think with these 2 disruptions a mono black aggro/control can become very viable.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Duress
4 Hymn too tourach
4 Chalice of the void
4 Leyline of the void
4 Null Rod
3 Diabolic Edict

1 Demonic consultation
1 Necropotence

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox jet
1 Lotus petal

4 polluted delta
8 swamp
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

I did not start on the sideboard yet. But i have some thoughts.

Any thoughts? I don't think a lot explaination is needed everything speaks for itself.

[zeus-online]

How is this a fish-deck? its suicide black! nothing more, nothing less.

/Zeus

[rmn]

Zeus beat me to it.  You should change the deck name.  Hooray for Suicide!

Anyway.  Perhaps you could give a bit of information on the metagame where you play.  For example, if you see Oath, then 3 edicts makes some sense; but against a lot of other things, it seems pretty suboptimal.

Now, the thing I like about Fish is that most of its creatures have evasion or alternate utility.  In particular, it seems to me like your Shades are pretty superfluous and might be better as something like Withered Wretch (possibly allowing you to drop the Leylines to less than four), or maybe even Dauthi Slayer.  Do you find yourself using the Shade's ability much?  Against what decks does it matter?

[Seraphim3577]

i don't really see the point in playing mono-black.  I understand the merits of a black sui deck, but I think that your clock could improve with either some red burn / arti distruction or white disruption (stp, vindicate).  For a deck running 4 duress and 4 hymns, i also expect to see mind twist.  I would probably splash white and cut the edicts for vindicates, but its your call.

I think that leyline of the void is a good call.  With disruption, you could seriously hurt some decks, but you should honestly think about vindicate or stp in the place of edicts.  

[houseplant]

I'd probably cut the three edicts for Chains of Mephistopheles since your only draw is Bob and necro, chains doesn't effect you at all. and take the shades out for Mesmeric Fiend.

basically 8 duresses, 4 hymns, then with chains, they aren't going to have a hand for that long, and negator is enough for beats.

but, the only bad thing about mono black is it has no answers at all for anything that actually makes it to the table. or if you didn't have a layline, and they topdeck will and just win. I'd want to splash blue for maybe some bounce, because main deck bounce I think is a lot better then edicts because for most of the creatures you want to really kill, putting them in the players hand is almost better then killing them. Though have darkblasts, and massacres in the sideboard for against welders, and other fish.

thats my thought though, I don't think mono black can really win anymore because there are too many oops I can win plays now that mono black can't do anything about.

[Guli]

The idea is to mulligan that leyline if ur playing for example combo or euhmz ichorid.

A turn 1 oath is a real problem. But if you manage to get a leyline in the game those diabolic edict will become plows.

You can use  some sideboard slots to help the oath matchup.

The only reason i would consider this deck is leyline because it makes your discard effects viable and not useless.

[zeus-online]

Seems like a bad idea to play a deck that is so reliant on leyline of the void that you'd aggresivly muligan for it.

I'd consider Withered wretch aswell if you are trying to hate graveyards that much.

/Zeus

[Guli]

when you mulli for leyline you should have a good reason. Like euhm, you win?

Leyline= free
Chalice= Free
Dark Ritual/Black lotus = acceleration

it can go very fast.

[President Skroob]

I just would like to throw in my two cents, and that is that every time someone tries to aggressively mulligan for Leyline of the Void against me, an Ichorid player, I end up rolling over someone who had 4 cards in hand and a really lousy start going for them. Maybe I'm just lucky, but it just can't be counted on.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Mulling into Leyline against Long or Ichorid is horrible and will usually cause you to lose.  These decks DO play bounce, you know.  I used to play Leylines sb in Oath, and I lost games when I mulled into one.

[zeus-online]

when you mulli for leyline you should have a good reason. Like euhm, you win?

I think you got it backwards...leyline is there to avoid you loosing, it dosnt do anything to help you win, so while you sit there doing nothing cause you've mulled your hand away, your opponent will be busy killing you.

/Zeus

[chrissss]

I would never mulligain just to hope to get a card that can annoy an opponent. you go down to 6, and you still have a chance of not getting the card, and this could mean that you will lose because of it. Most oath decks do play bounce, so its not ideal imo.

do you always cotv for 0? because cotv for 1 might really be an annoyance to you.

also; 2 polluted deltas and 2 bloodstained mires might be better ( small detail I know, but still)

[freakish777]

i also expect to see mind twist.

Mind Twist is awful if it isn't being powered by Mana Drain.

Duress > Chains of Mephistopheles > Hymn to Tourach >>> Mind Twist in a mono black deck that's running aggressive creatures.

Don't mull to Leyline.  I got the pleasure of watching a game of Herbig's and Kowal's match at day 1 of SCG Rochester.  Kowal sided in Leylines against Herbig's Grim Long deck, mulliganned to 6 (if I'm not mistaken, either of them can correct me here), put Leyline into play.

Herbig played draw spells to find lands and artifact mana over a couple turns, he was holding Timetwister, and Grim Tutored for Chain of Vapor.  The next turn, he plays taps 2~3 lands floating mana, taps his artifact mana floating it, and then Chain of Vapors his own board, completely neglecting Leyline ramps the storm and his mana and plays Twister into another tutor that finds Tendrils.

(I may be remembering some of this incorrectly, if either of them want to chime in, they're more then welcome to say I'm not stating the facts accurately.  Also if I'm not mistaken, Kowal's tournament report states as much that Leyline of the Void was completely not what he was expecting it to offer to his Grim Long match up)

EDIT:  It wasn't a tournament report I was thinking of, it was his comment in this thread.

[President Skroob]

I think that Leyline is a good card, but it doesn't do the job alone. It helps things along.

Pairing Leyline alone up against Pitch Long in that thread is being mean, as it is true that Long is one of the matchups where Leyline is mediocre but still does something. If nothing else, any sort of black discard you use on them will remove the spell permanently as opposed to just floating it along until Regrowth or Yawgmoth's Will picks it back up.

Against other decks, though, it's quite handy. Leyline is very good at stopping Gifts Ungiven tricks. When one casts Gifts Ungiven knowing that two of the cards will never be seen again, it changes the way the game develops quite a bit. Does it hose Gifts alone? Certainly not. The same could be said for many decks. Leyline assists, it does not win.

Because Leyline is only an enabler, it is foolish to mulligan in search of one, as you are disabling yourself elsewhere in hopes of it. Killing your hand for Leyline is just not an ideal tradeoff at all, even against something that Leyline is strong against (but not an instant win) like Dragon Combo or Ichorid.


Since someone mentioned Chains of Mephistopheles, I would heartily agree on its inclusion, if you're still looking into building the deck. Chains is spectacular. I would just about give my left arm to be able to run it in Ichorid but I just don't think the mana curve supports it.

[Methuselahn]

Have you considered several copies of Tendrils of Agony?  Replacing Leylines or bigger creatures of course.  ToA gives mono black long distance game.  Tendrils makes sui so much more powerful.  Try a few copies.

It seems the comparison to fish builds isn't that far off as it may seem.  Sure, sui has no blue, but when it comes down to it, it is fish that they have to compete with for that spot in the metagame niche.

Your deck wants a Lotus Petal.

[Guli]

I have granted 8 slots to the clock of the deck. Call the deck whatever you want but i see disruption/draw/beatdown/card advantage/control making it aggro/control in my eyes. Now about the clock. I might be overdoing it but there is a reason why i dedicated so many slots to it. With the hand destruction you will usually deliver a blow to the opponent but this will not last forever. With a nantuko down and a negator it will be all over very fast. And there are weak points of the negator were nantuko fills them up. The Sideboard is just waiting to replace one of those slots. I agree i could cut 1 of each giving me a good amount of clock creatures, six.

Leyline is game over for ichorid. Especially combined with hand disruption. Remember the 4 Duress/4 Hymn pile is being used in the deck. The leyline mostly serves as grave disruption in the deck like Torm crypt or withered wretch would. Why did i chose leyline and not Wretch? Wretch is slower. I wantr to maximaze my chances against combo. I am scared against combo with this deck. Leyline gives me options. Now if i don't get it in opening hand and i know im playing combo or any deck that has a Y.Will based winning condition i will mulli for it but not down to 3 cards. I will most likely mulligan 2 times max.

Correct me if i am wrong but the idea of mulliganning into leyline is nothing new. Why the sudden critisizm about it.

The lotus petal is a stupid mistake of me that i completely overlooked. I will make the change. Good pointer.

The disruption does not win the game the clock does. So when i make a remark like 'leyline wins the game' i don't mean that the card will make a good player give up. However it will give me a comfotable position and most likely a big enough advantage to ensure a win if i don't make mistakes or if he doesn't luck out big time.

[Guli]

There is always the alternative planar void since i don't use my own grave.

[zeus-online]

I have granted 8 slots to the clock of the deck. Call the deck whatever you want but i see disruption/draw/beatdown/card advantage/control making it aggro/control in my eyes.

Yeah suicide is/was aggro-control.

Correct me if i am wrong but the idea of mulliganning into leyline is nothing new. Why the sudden critisizm about it.

New or not, i still think its a bad idea, and i think you are overrating it.

The disruption does not win the game the clock does. So when i make a remark like 'leyline wins the game' i don't mean that the card will make a good player give up. However it will give me a comfotable position and most likely a big enough advantage to ensure a win if i don't make mistakes or if he doesn't luck out big time.

That's where we disagree, i don't think it gives you enough of an edge to win..atleast not if you are trading in cards (muligan)

/Zeus

[Guli]

how are you going to take care of that leyline when the opponent is raping your hand. You can't go off. You can't Will. And you are being mana handled at the same time with chalice/rod/waste. And there is a clock beating you down fast.

[Methuselahn]

Guli,

Where on earth do you play magic that you need a mono colored deck?  Frankly, beyond the simple deckbuilding errors, I don't understand why one would want to go mono-colored.  I keep trying to find reasons why going mono black could be the key to unlocking any metagame and nothing comes up.   

Sorry to be so harsh.

[zeus-online]

how are you going to take care of that leyline when the opponent is raping your hand. You can't go off. You can't Will. And you are being mana handled at the same time with chalice/rod/waste. And there is a clock beating you down fast.

Oh so you are going to attack me with all the discard you mulled away to get the leyline? :/
Yeah sure, there will be situations where this deck will just win, big deal, most decks can do that.
Its not THAT hard to find a bounce-spell, really. and once the leyline is bounced, you need 4 mana to replay it, if we assume its not too late already.
Another thing...those hymn's might backfire against all the decks running misD's.

/Zeus

[Guli]

how are you going to take care of that leyline when the opponent is raping your hand. You can't go off. You can't Will. And you are being mana handled at the same time with chalice/rod/waste. And there is a clock beating you down fast.

Oh so you are going to attack me with all the discard you mulled away to get the leyline? :/
Yeah sure, there will be situations where this deck will just win, big deal, most decks can do that.
Its not THAT hard to find a bounce-spell, really. and once the leyline is bounced, you need 4 mana to replay it, if we assume its not too late already.
Another thing...those hymn's might backfire against all the decks running misD's.

/Zeus

That is not an argument lol how funny, i have duress to take care of misd. Same argumeant. I don't always mulli. When i see a decent hand i don't have to get leyline to beat combo. Duress/Rod/CotV/Leyline all do well against combo. You can't bounce everything. Mono mana base is strictly stronger. Hymn is 2 black,Nantuko needs black,rituals become 1cc lotus. There are some good sided of mono black. I could splash white and add Jotun grunt and Stps instead leyline and diabolic edict.

[Dnine]

I know leyline is better overall then planar void, but in a mono black deck like this isn't layline a dead draw if not in opening hand???  There's no brainstrom to shuffle it away and no protection to keep it from being bounced.  Seams like I'd rather have planer void in this deck verses layline.  Sure there are some tricks that can get around the effect, but your discard statagy seems to make those tricks less effective.   Did you concider it at al?

[Guli]

Yes i did. I actually think planar void is better suited but leyline is still free and uncounterable. You can hardcast it that is still an option. besides when you don't cast planar void turn 1 it is a dead card aswell. And leyline is simply stronger as an effect and the way it enters the game. Leyline is tempo if you get it opening hand. Some people don't like to rely on luck like this. But i think the other disruption is compensating for that. The deck doesn't rely on Leyline THAT much.

[lordmayhem]

Why did i chose leyline and not Wretch? Wretch is slower.

Wretch is an absolute house and wrecks graveyards hard. Rather than sinking your mana into Shades, you can sink your mana into removing key cards from graveyards. Its also a 2/2 beatstick. In contrast to Leyline, Leyline more often than not will require mulliganing into it. This is not good. Mulliganing will reduce the probability of finding a Leyline and will put you at a significant disadvantage if you say, mulligan to 5.

[brianpk80]

Wretch is an absolute house and wrecks graveyards hard. Rather than sinking your mana into Shades, you can sink your mana into removing key cards from graveyards. Its also a 2/2 beatstick. In contrast to Leyline, Leyline more often than not will require mulliganing into it. This is not good. Mulliganing will reduce the probability of finding a Leyline and will put you at a significant disadvantage if you say, mulligan to 5.

This is absolutely correct.  In today's metagame, the only function I can think of for Nantuko Shade is to occupy an anti-Fish slot.  Keep it in the sideboard if one must run it, unless around 50% or more of your field is Fish.  Most creatures need to bring utility to the table, like Withered Wretch, in order to justify a maindeck slot.  I think I'd be running Nezumi Shortfang or Hypnotic Specter over Nantuko Shade if I were playing mono-black.  Have they been tested here?

Also, Chalice + Null Rod might be overkill.  Chalice is horrible when you don't go first because you end up faced with an army of Moxen half the time.  It looks like Chalice @ 1 and Chalice @ 2 hurt you just as much if more more than an opponent, since you're not running Vial.  It might be helpful to try the Chalice + Tormod's Crypt + AEther Vial + Umezawa's Jitte route and more nuisance creatures (Mesmeric Fiend, Thoughtpicker Witch) instead of Null Rod, Nantuko Shade, and Leyline of the Void.   

-BPK

[lordmayhem]

Splashing white would allow for more nuisance creatures.
Jotun Grunt, Kataki, Children of Korlis (great against combo), True Believer (if you would run Vials)..etc
White also allows you to run Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing and StPs.