[Deck/Primer] Dread Return Ichorid - aka Cookie Monster

[meadbert]

I believe that Saradoc on SCG had a turn 2 win in Spain when the opponent popped Memory Jar.

[InfinityCircuit]

I don't remember anyone making the turn 2 claim.

TD:

I am still of the opinion that Ghoul is far stronger than the other possible creatures in this deck (for the reanimator slot that is). His insane brokenness is truly realized when you get the second turn win that circumvents Force of Will (Therapy before Return). Titan himself has not been outstanding, and in the matchups where he was relevant, I would always have preferred Ghoul in my testing to charge into play. The same goes for Wurm, where I, similar to Meadbert's results, found that Ghoul or GGT was the better target in the scenario. The Ghoul addition obviously lends itself to...

I'm still preferring Symbiotic Wurm/Sundering Titan to Sutured Ghoul simply because it is a better crypt defense - you don't want to have to go all in with Ghoul.

[policehq]

A second turn win would require something like Mox Jet, Putrid Imp, Bazaar of Baghdad, Golgari Grave-Troll in your opening hand and some lucky dredging.

-hq

[TurbulentDirge]

The turn 2 win was with the following hand against an opponent that ostensibly had no FoW in their opening hand.

Bazaar, GGT, Ichorid, Unmask, Nether Shadow, Leyline

I was playing first. Instead of laying Leyline, I saw the potential for turn 1 Bazaar brokenness and Unmasked myself instead, taking GGT to the grave. I then played a Bazaar, dredged for 2 trolls, and passed. He played Brainstorm and land. During my upkeep, with Ichorid on the stack, I used Bazaar, and hit the gold mine, getting 2 more shadows, 2 Pedes, and 2 Ichorids, in addition to black creatures to remove. I recurred 3 shadows and 2 Ichorids. On my next dredge during the draw step, I saw that I had all the necessary pieces for the Ghoul win, including the cautionary Therapy. I sacrificed Ichorid to the Therapy, taking out the opposing FoW. I then dread returned Ghoul.
2 Pedes (12)
2 Ichorids (18)
2 Shadows (20)
He was at 19 anyway from the fetchland.

Now, this was a hideously lucky win that was nearly a statistical improbability. In fact it has not happened again. However, if nothing else it is a tiny bit of evidence in favor of Pede over Shell (although again, it has yet to happen again in lots of testing).

-DL

[policehq]

That example is not only improbable, but also out of sync with rules and timing. The extra Ichorids you dredged should not have triggered since they were not in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep.

-hq

[Tobi]

That example is not only improbable, but also out of sync with rules and timing. The extra Ichorids you dredged should not have triggered since they were not in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep.

-hq

The Nether Shadows also have to be in your GY at the beginning of your upkeep to trigger.

[Vegeta2711]

...*sigh*

For all future reference to Ichorid players, here's how the timing rules work.

Ichorid and Nether Shadow both have specific clauses that state that their abilities will be checked at the beginning of your upkeep. This means only ones currently in your graveyard at the beginning of the upkeep step will be able to return to play. You cannot respond with Bazaar, dredge up more Ichy / Shadows into the graveyard and recur them on the same turn.

What you can do with the creatures initially in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep, is stack their effects. I.E. even if you have no black creatures in your grave, stack the trigger, then respond with dredging, then resolve the effect and RFG a newly buried critter.

Ashen Ghoul is the exception to the above, because it's rules text lacks any 'beginning' text. You may dredge it up and pay the cost at any time during the upkeep step.

[The Atog Lord]

Note further than Ashen Ghoul is an activated ability, whereas the Shadow and the Ichorid are triggered abilities.

[President Skroob]

Also, Nether Shadow's condition is checked to see if he triggers, it doesn't automatically trigger and check when it resolves. That means that if his condition is not met at the beginning of your upkeep, he will not return even if you Bazaar in response to other "beginning of upkeep" triggers in response and dump a ton of guys on top of him.

[Harlequin]

A turn 2 win is technically possible (with jar or hymn or whatnot) But I fail to see why ruining a perfectly good high disruption hand is ever the right play.

The turn 2 win was with the following hand against an opponent that ostensibly had no FoW in their opening hand.
Bazaar, GGT, Ichorid, Unmask, Nether Shadow, Leyline

Perfect example - you have potential for an unprotected turn 2 win.  OR you drop the LL.  Bazaar then unmask and possibly draw into chalice or another Unmask or even the less likely jet+cabal.  turn 2 win with no disruption will essentially never be beter then a turn 3 or 4 win with two pieces of disruption on turn 0-1....
---------------

As far as triggers are concerned, here is how I physically handlen them so there is no confusion:
Keeping it Neat: After about 1 min, its obvious that I'm playing ichorid.  So I move my Library almost into the middle of my play surface.  The left side of my library is in play, and the right side is my entire GY.  As cards enter my GY I stack them so about 1/4 to 1/2 and inch of each card is showing and all cards are in a vertical possition (no snakeing the GY around like some control players do).  When I reach the end of the table, I start a new column of cards; paying specially attention to keep good track of the order of cards.

- Upkeep Triggers:  I take all the triggers that meet the condition and "tap" them within my graveyard. This applies to all Ichorids currently in the yard, and any nether shadow who ALLREADY has 3 creatures above it.  This is good because the cards that trigger will clearly stick out to the left because all other cards are allined vertically.  This is good because It clearly lables cards that are triggered while not changeing the order of my GY.  For what ever reason If I choose not to pay for an Ichorid, I just "untap" it when the trigger goes off the stack.

- My first priority:  Now I can start my dredgeing as my GY grows, I still keep clear knowledge of both Order and what triggers are on the stack. 

- The resolution:  At some point in the early match I usually state "I stack the order of resolution Nethers first then Ichorids - always." But it would be extremely rare for it to matter how you stack Nethers and Ichorids.  So then I just move all my "tapped" Nethers out of the GY and into play.  Theres no question of "well did that have 3 creatures above it at the begining?" because I would not have tapped it if it didn't.  Once the Nethers are in, I now choose how I want to play my Ichorids (remeber that I am allowed to choose ANY black creature in the entire GY because Ichorid doesn't target).  Lastly I put ANY ashens in I can.  As stated above, Ashen's don't trigger so as long as you haven't 'dredged for turn' even a fresh Ashen can be played. 

[Gabethebabe]

Instead of "tapping" stuff that is in my graveyard, I keep my graveyard apart from the cards I dredged (having two graveyards so to speak) and after all the dredging we can easily see which ichorids and shadows are allowed to come into play. Before I draw I put the two piles together to form my GY.

[Tobi]

Once the Nethers are in, I now choose how I want to play my Ichorids (remeber that I am allowed to choose ANY black creature in the entire GY because Ichorid doesn't target).  Lastly I put ANY ashens in I can.

It makes more sense to get those ashens into play before the Ichorids, since you may accidentially remove one of those 3 cards above an Ashen. Doesn't happen if you pay attention, but it's easier to always keep the less fault-prone order.

[meadbert]

Another rule that many Ichorid players do not realize is that if you Dread Return a Grave-Troll he counts as one of your creatures in the graveyard.

[TurbulentDirge]

What you can do with the creatures initially in your graveyard at the beginning of your upkeep, is stack their effects. I.E. even if you have no black creatures in your grave, stack the trigger, then respond with dredging, then resolve the effect and RFG a newly buried critter.

Thank you for the clarification. It was this that I interpreted to mean that I could dredge and then bring out additional Ichorids.

Well, that pretty much invalidates the turn 2 win with Ghoul, although it would be possible given ridiculously improbable dredge conditions and cards in your hand. However, that is terribly unlikely.

Again, thank you for showing that rules faux pas.

-DL

[Seraphim3577]

A turn 2 win with ghouls is highly possible if you are running the mana versions including tolarian winds, windfall, and wheel of fortune.  Turn 1 wheel or windfall with dredge cards is likely a win on turn 2 every time.

[Implacable]

A turn 2 win with ghouls is highly possible if you are running the mana versions including tolarian winds, windfall, and wheel of fortune.  Turn 1 wheel or windfall with dredge cards is likely a win on turn 2 every time.

Of course, that takes away the entire point of playing Cookie Monster, which is to have ridiculous quantities of disruption and a miniscule spellcount.  In other words, it takes away the part of Cookie Monster that lifts the deck above its trashy forebear.

[Cavius The Great]

Has anyone tested this deck? I put it together in MWS and goldfished a bit with it and it seemed horrible. I was winning by like the 8th or 9th turn which is terrible. No offense, but I have no idea how this deck could make Top8 in any tournament.

[dicemanx]

Has anyone tested this deck? I put it together in MWS and goldfished a bit with it and it seemed horrible. I was winning by like the 8th or 9th turn which is terrible. No offense, but I have no idea how this deck could make Top8 in any tournament.

This deck consistently combos off on turn 3-4. You are doing something wrong - are you sure that you're always mulliganing into Bazaar? Do you Bazaar every upkeep? Do you know the upkeep stacking rules?

[Cavius The Great]

Has anyone tested this deck? I put it together in MWS and goldfished a bit with it and it seemed horrible. I was winning by like the 8th or 9th turn which is terrible. No offense, but I have no idea how this deck could make Top8 in any tournament.

This deck consistently combos off on turn 3-4. You are doing something wrong - are you sure that you're always mulliganing into Bazaar? Do you Bazaar every upkeep? Do you know the upkeep stacking rules?

I did everthing I was suppose to. I even mulliganed down to zero cards with no Bazaar. The deck definitely needs more tutoring power, for sure.

[Vegeta2711]

Has anyone tested this deck? I put it together in MWS and goldfished a bit with it and it seemed horrible. I was winning by like the 8th or 9th turn which is terrible. No offense, but I have no idea how this deck could make Top8 in any tournament.

This deck consistently combos off on turn 3-4. You are doing something wrong - are you sure that you're always mulliganing into Bazaar? Do you Bazaar every upkeep? Do you know the upkeep stacking rules?

I did everthing I was suppose to. I even mulliganed down to zero cards with no Bazaar. The deck definitely needs more tutoring power, for sure.

MWS Shuffler had to be giving you god-awful draws. I can't even imagine how somebody screws up playing this deck.

[Harlequin]

Also, did you make any changes to the deck?  Cutting even 1 or 2 dredge cards will signifigantly reduce the goldfishing turn.

==============================================================
Just as an Update, the current build we have is the following:

4 Bazaar
4 Bayou
3 Petrified Field
2 Jet + Chrome

14  [Chalice, Unmask, Cabal]x4 + [Duress]x2

10 Dredge cards: [Trolls, Stinkers]x4 + [Darkblast]x2
8 Ichorids & Shades
3 Ashens
12 Combo Piece: [DR, ghoul, breath, Sostruss]x2 + [Poweder]x4
----------------------------
Board:
4 Leyline
4 Charm
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress (4 total)
1 Petrified Field (4 total)
----------------------------

So we now from the decklist on the main page essentally we've done:
-1 Ashen, -2 Overgrown tomb = +3 P. Field
... and then streamlined the board.

I agree that 4 Ashen Ghouls are overkill.  I did some testing with 3 and found that I never found myself in trouble because I didn't hit an Ashen.  It is vertually impossible for the deck to return 2 Ashens in one turn... and you shouldn't need more than 1 ashen ghoul over the course of the 2 turns in which you need to win... what it comes down to is that Ashen Ghoul #4 is essentially dead wieght.

Petrified Field is drop dead amazing! Now granted... I still stick my original concept that is: It is too slow for the deck as a mana scource... because it doesn't allow you mana until your 3rd mainphase!  Which is, for all intensive purposes, too slow for this deck.  However it is a uniquely powerful card because it can fill TWO important rolls in the deck.  #1) Answer to wasteland, #2) a "recovery" mana source... when the deck has a slow start.  It is comperable to a Fetchland in a 3 color deck... it gives your choice of A, or B.  In the case of Fetchlands in slaver they can get you Red or Black mana depending on the situation.  Petrified Field gets you a Bazaar OR a colored mana, depending on the situation.  I have NEVER been holding a Petrified Field and said "Damn I wish this was a Bayou/Overgrown/Ashen."

We have essentailly Pre-Boarded the deck for a Fish/Drain hybridization.  2 Duress, 2 Darkblast, and 3 Petrified in the main.  The deck has the ability to hit the board for the 4th of either Duress or Field.  Again, I don't fundamentally disagree with running the Leylines on the main, I just personaly don't think it's the right meta choice for New England.

[VarienTanafres]

I remember a time when I went to a tournament @ The Beanie Exchange using Dragon Breath/DSC in Oath. I was told there, by multiple people, that there was an errata change with Dragon's Breath stating that if the creature doesn't come from your hand, then the effect won't kick. If this is true, then wouldn't the Sutured Ghoul become a minor threat?
Also, (how) is it possible to use Icorid's ability if it is the only creature in the graveyard? And yes, I'm a noob...

[Harlequin]

My MTG history may be incorrect on this.  But there was a short period of time where wizards errata'ed a bunch of cards and added a phase "If you played it [the creature] from your hand then ..."

This was right around the time when the whole time vault fiasco was going on.  As a result, wizards went back and renegged a bunch of "power level" erratas which including killing the "From your hand" on many cards including the Dragon enchants, Priest of Gix, Karmic Guide, as well as the 'Untap Land' cards like Cloud of Faries, Great Whale, and Palachron.  As well as changing Timevault to a more replacement focus, and re-enabling Bassault Monolith + Power Artifact combo.

I guess you just picked a bad time to try the deck... on the bright side Oath -> DSC -> Dragon enchants works again!