Is Leyline of the Void good enough for a maindeck slot?

[emperorofguam]

In a tier 1 setting, is Leyline of the Void good enough for a main deck slot in many of today's tier 1 decks?

As far as match ups go the only real bad match up with this card main deck is U/W fish, but even against U/W fish it can be effective as a way to starve Grunts. 

My friend is a fervent player of Scuba Stax, and the other day while we were playing I tossed out the idea of main decking Leyline.  We both initially chuckled at the idea, but upon consideration engaged in deep discussion of the idea.  At the time I was playing manaless Ichorid, and had 2-0'd him largely due to a pair of Leyline filled opening hands (plus the fact of us not side boarding between the two games). 

Leyline is obviously good against manaless Ichorid, and is even good against colored Ichorid.  Also, as I discovered in our games, against stax is definitely solid.  Control Slaver and Gifts generally have bounce, but it is a good tempo boost, while they find a way to bounce it.  Dragon and all builds of Oath probably fear this card as well.  Also, it is fairly suppressive against many storm based decks. 

With as many good match ups as this card has, it seems as a possible main deck slot in any deck that can support it (definitely any deck that wouldn't be opposed to mulling into it, although the odds of that are slightly unfavorable). 

Anyway...for argument sake, what decks could consider main decking it, what cards would they cut for it, and in the end is it a viable option?

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think so, but that might just be me.  In a deck like Ichorid, especially, where you're trying to win quickly, Leyline (in conjunction with your other hate) will slow down combo and Gifts long enough to let you get your beats in, most of the time.  Against decks with Goblin Welder or other graveyard recursion like Salvagers, you can shut down one of their more potent weapons against you:  a recurring Tormod's Crypt.  Not to mention that Welder decks have to play their big artifacts fairly, and Crucible of Worlds is a dead card.

Graveyard hate is very strong in Vintage right now, and not just against Ichorid.  Leyline of the Void will rarely come into play and win you the game outright, but in decks that can best utilize its turn-0 ability (i.e. play four and not care if its drawn later) it's a very solid piece of disruption.

In Ichorid, I would maindeck it all the time in powered metagames that don't contain a lot of Fish.  In other decks it's probably a sideboard card where you want to have four dedicated slots of graveyard hate.  Until something monoblack makes a comeback it probably won't be maindecked anywhere else.

[Harlequin]

There are 2 problem's that need to be answered for Leyline of the void on the main.
#1) If you're going to run it, then you have to run 4.  It's an early game card... so you need 4.  That means you've dedicated 4 maindeck slots to GY hate.  There are very few decks on the market that need/afford that kind of commitment to hate.
#2) What are you going to do with the card when you draw it after your opening hand?  The deck should run some way of either filtering it back into the deck (Top, Brainstorm) or spending it (Chrome mox, Wild Mongrel, Unmask).  Or even a realistic way of casting it (heavy black mana base, dark rits, full power).

So what decks can handle #1 and #2?

Well for 1, Ichorid.  Ichorid needs FREE turn 0-1 disruption.  Leyline fits this niche perfectly.  So that takes care of #1.  As for #2... well after your first 3 cards, you essentially are dredging ever draw, so your not going to find it dead in your hand.  Just dead in the yard.  so that takes care of #2.

Mono Black?  Possibly, If build correctly.  Running Rits Moxen, and Unmask then the card will never truely be dead.

What are other options?

I would say if your considering maindeck "long term" GY hate, then Planar Void is the way to go.  It doesn't have the same drawbacks, you can easily run x3 or even x2 maindeck without breaking a sweat. It can be drawn into and can be tutored for early as a turn 1 or 2 drop and still have a leyline like effect on the game.  It is weaker in only 2 reguards: Dragon + Necromancy, and Welder.  Because Planar Void is triggered, instant effects will bypass it.  Even at that Dragon and welder are severly hosed by Planar void because they have to discard and active in the same turn.  So they have to sit around with dead cards in hand while they wait for the proper time to win.  Running Planar Void along side something like Darkblast or Diabolic Edict will generally be stronger in something like U/B fish or mono black.  The main disadvantage to Planar Void is that the effect is symmetrical.  So you wouldn't want to play it in either Ichorid or Stax.

Tormod's Crypt is another less potent answer.  Running 1 or 2 of these main can put a degree of pressure on your opponent with little to no commitment.  However the pressure applied by crypt is not on the same level as Leyline of the Void or even Planar Void.

Lastly there are a plethora of alternate options like Withered Wretch, Ebony Charm, Cremate, Coffin Purge, etc etc... But I would definately leave these as sideboard cards.

[meadbert]

Leyline is a dead card too often because you cannot cast it.

Uba Stax might be able to support it because it can just pitch it to Bazaar.  Uba Stax should never play it in the main deck though because in so many matchups it is just a dead Uncastable card.  You cannot even play it as a permanent to sac to smokestack.

[unknown.root]

A 40% chance of kiiling their graveyard for ZERO mana. Yeah I'm happy about that.
I wouldn't worry much about the 3 dead cards it creates, since thats bazaars job to filter the crap.

And everyone SHOULD be running bazaar.

[zeus-online]

A 40% chance of kiiling their graveyard for ZERO mana. Yeah I'm happy about that.
I wouldn't worry much about the 3 dead cards it creates, since thats bazaars job to filter the crap.

And everyone SHOULD be running bazaar.

Everyone? So every deck should run bazaar? I don't get it, you can't possibly think that every deck should run bazaars.

I really don't like the thought of drawing even more dead cards.

/Zeus

[sys41o]

I see it being a possibility as a Meta call but a main deck card.  I'm not 100% convinced that it will do anything passed a first turn drop.  Most decks will have better things to cast after the first turn and there aren't enough decks that really warrent this type of hate.  Not to mention even if you do get this on the first turn it really only slows your opponent down and it gives you nothing but a stall tactic.  You can't attack with it.  It gives no special benefit against any card that makes it to the board as well.  I don't think that there is enough decks that win purely by graveyard manipulation that would justify main board usage.

I do like it in Extended/Standard however.

[emperorofguam]

So for those of us keeping count...

Leyline is almost a 100% go main deck of manaless Ichorid.  Ichorid has the ability to run four of the card, filter if it were to ever actually be drawn later, and to utilize the card in other ways later in the game (i.e. paying the alternative casting cost to Unmask). 

5 color Uba stax, Uba Stax, and5 color stax could incorporate the card into their main decks, as it is a 40% chance to knock out an opponent's yard turn 0 for 0 mana, and also because they have an effective filter mechanism. 

To continue the discussion...

It may just be me, but the sense of the entire format seems to be changing.  For the first time in a long while we see a deck that is totally void of power, blue, and artifacts running rampantly unchecked in our format (Ichorid).  The deck plays spells because it can, not out of necessity.  It could theoretically never play a spell, and consistently win by turn 3.  Now obviously this is a single case and not every deck in the Meta game fits this mold, but I believe that we could be on the verge of a fundamental shift in the way vintage magic is perceived.  At the forefront of this change have been decks that utilize all resources effectively.  For the last 2ish years stax was the Meta game that had to be beat.  Why?  Because of its amazing ability to generate fat mana, and weld fatter artifacts into play for free (not to mention never miss a land drop thanks to Crucible).  It soon became apparent that Bazaar of Baghdad is an amazing filter, giving both new cards in hand, and filling up the graveyard with things that could be "gimped" into play. 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in current vintage magic don't all decks, in some fundamental way, utilize their graveyard in a similar way? 

Control Slaver:  Big on welders, has Thirst for Knowledge as a filter, loves that Yawgmoth's Will, all about setting up good board position.

Gifts:  What's recoup, Yawgmoth's will, and every other card your opponent sends to you graveyard going to do RFG'd?

All stax variants:  As discussed above, Crucible/Welder is almost what makes these decks in current builds where lock components and fat drops are at an all time low; thanks to our friend Bob the confidant.

Tendrils combo:  This one is arguable... I don't suppose that graveyard manipulation technically effects their ability to play nine spells and have 2BB mana remaining to tendrils for the win, but how less broken is Will in this case... and with a newer trend of playing Bazaar in these decks in order to optimize Will, the graveyard is becoming all the more important.

Bomberman, Oath, Dragon (yeah I know, who plays dragon anymore, besides me  lol...):   All have fundamental ties to their graveyard.

Except for U/W fish and EBA these have racked up huge numbers of top 8 finishes at some of the most prestigious vintage events in the world. 

What really determines what justifies a main deck slot?  I suppose in theory it has to fall into one of 6 categories...

First, every deck needs some way to win...  I've heard it said that really no deck, aside from aggro (who really wants to pay mana for a creature that does little more than attack, when they can much easier play an Oath of Druids and get a 6/x Swiss army knife or a Tinker out an 11/11 whoopin' stick and win) can afford to have more than 4-5 slots in a 60 card deck dedicated to winning.  This would include your Tinker/DSC, Burning Wish/Tendrils, Dragons/Animate effects, Trikes, and heaven help us for even recalling the days of Decree of Justice and Morphling. 

So that leaves us with 55-56 slots. 

Most vintage decks run at least 5x Moxen, 1x Lotus, 1x Sol Ring... while most (stax, gifts, cs, and Combo) run a full assortment of Solomoxen, crypt, vault, petal (in some builds) along with 4-6 fetch lands, 3-4 basic lands, 5-6 duel lands, and 2 or 3 utility lands (Factories, strip effects, ports, etc...).   So that's any where from 7-10 artifact mana and 14-19 lands taking up 21-29 slots for mana generation.

So that leaves us with 27-34 slots.

Then we have the arm long list of restricted cards that almost every deck utilizes... Your Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor (excluding Stax), Imperial Seal, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk (excluding stax), Fact or Fiction (just as an example, Gifts is probably run more now days even in CS, but then again Gifts isn't restricted so nah =p), Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, then especially in combo Necropotence, Yawgmoth's bargain, Regrowth, Memory Jar, Wheel of Fortune, etc...

This leaves us...well I don't know, I kind of lost count...but leaves us with each deck's particular staples, somewhere between 21 and 28 slots for our Brainstorms in anything with Islands Dark Rituals in combo, our Mana Drains in control, our lock components in stacks, and our Merchant Scroll type stuff in Gifts...

The 4-8 slots for standard proactive disruption: Duress, Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm.

And finally we have the 5 or 6 cards that are totally up to your personal playing style...about the only 5 or 6 cards that you see varied from the standard archetype at major vintage events.  You know the ones like Rack and Ruin, Darkblast, Fire//Ice, God's Eye (inside joke), the cards that you sit around and bust the last brain cell you had left after 8 rounds of Swiss debating one over the other before the next tournament.

Now, which slot would Leyline fall into?  Obviously it isn't going to swing for the win, it doesn't tap for mana (although in mono black and Ichorid, where we've already discussed it's viability, with unmask it does pitch awfully well), it doesn't find us our win or the card we need to get out of our current situation, it doesn't tap/sac to give us 7 new cards like Jar, it doesn't help our storm combo or break or effectively improve our hand, game, or board position in anyway whatsoever. 
Perhaps these facts are what, in higher schools of magic theory, permanently brand the mark of side board only on to the card.  But we do still have the final two categories, and it's here, in these last 2 slots, the 9-14 cards, dedicated to proactive disruption and personal playing style, where I feel this card earns its stripes. 

I don't think there are many people who would argue against Duress being a firmly established icon in the world of disruption.  Turn one this card can lay to waste the most elaborate of dreams of glory in a magic player's mind.  What does this card do?  It removes one non-creature, non-land card from an opponent's hand and puts it in their graveyard (thus taking it away from their arsenal), and it has the added effect of giving you the knowledge of what exactly is in their hand.  Very solid.  But this card, aside from the times that it is Forced, through the alternative casting cost, really doesn't provide any sort of card advantage, usually isn't that useful when cast after turn 3 or 4 (except to protect your combo when going off), and after turn 5ish is, most times, a dead draw.  These points are exactly the arguments against Leyline that I've seen brought up, but no one really questions Duress's place of power in the main deck (and most of our most established archetypes today have experimented/had favorable results with the card in the main).  In opposition to Duress's not creating card advantage, Leyline does exactly that.  Every deck that has dreams of sending cards to the graveyard to Will, weld, play through Crucible, that they've discarded to Thirst, discarded to Tog, dredged, or discarded to Bazaar is gone, it makes cards without buyback (who plays buyback anyway) one time use only.  I believe this creates not only actual card advantage (removing at least x cards from the game through the use of 1 card), but also virtual card advantage (in the same way that Chalice of the Void set at a number where your opponent will feel the brunt of the effect).  In every other aspect it functions in a fundamentally similar way as Duress, it makes spells that an opponent had access to inaccessible. 

In response to sys41o:  It really is a Meta call.  It wouldn't even be conceivable to play this deck in an aggro heavy environment, but I really wanted to look at this subject from the point of view of large tournaments where the top 8 is almost always entirely comprised of Tiered decks.  Also, as mentioned above, it is entirely better if this is dropped turn 0, just like most other forms of proactive disruption (Chalice for 0, Unmask, Duress, etc...), but even later on when cast it hinders in a similar way.  Yes it only slows your opponent down, but I think slowing your opponent down while you set up better board position is the very definition of tempo and board control.  Every other form of proactive disruption in the format, in and of itself, isn't enough to win the game, but what it does do is tilt the scales in your direction.  I don't think any stacks player plays turn one 3-sphere and expects that one form of disruption to carry him/her to victory, but it gives you an advantage, that when played upon leads to victory.  And while I agree that decks seldom win through graveyard manipulation alone, you would have to concede to the points listed above concerning the current tiered decks in the format.  Each and every one of them utilizes their graveyards in ways fundamental to the deck's success.

Another thing to keep in mind is that all of the decks we're talking about (the ones I perceive as "tiered" decks and thus the litmus test by which other decks must be measured) all have ways to filter through late game draws...bazaar, Thirst for Knowledge, Brainstorm, etc. 

To meadbret:  I think this card is more castable than we give it credit for.  I don't think there are many of us who will necessarily mulligan until this card is in our opening hand (unless its past game 1 and we know our opponent is playing Ichorid), but 2BB isn't awful (okay it is awful in general) to come up with.  Several games I've seen it hard cast turn 2 by B/R Stax and 5 Color Stax.  And I really don't think there are that many matchups where it is truly dead.  In a tiered environment what matchups is it dead against?

To Harlequin:  I agree 100% with the first half of your post.  I think that your analysis is right on.  As far as your views on Planar Void, I’m afraid I don't share your views.  Now of course in a non-powered (excluding manaless Ichorid), non-tiered environment this whole discussion is totally pointless.  In other decks besides stax variants, CS, Gifts, and combo variants the graveyard is a second class citizen hardly worthy of paying any heed to, but take it from one who thought along your lines that Planar Void could  be a substitute for Leyline...it doesn't work =(.  I had to discover this tasty bit of intelligence from a beating from Robert Vroman.  I was playing CS at the time and he was playing his trademark Uba Stax.  Game 2, with the intentions of nullifying his welders, his draw engine, and his Crucible I sided in 3 Planar Voids.  What I hadn't come to realize is that in the process of doing this I had inadvertently cut off my welders, my thirsts, and my Will.  Also, as you mentioned it is a triggered effect that can be played around by the common cards included in most of the decks it is designed to hinder.  As far as you other alternatives, I agree that they are comparable in effect, but they're hampered by their magnitude.  They are far less effective.

I guess all of this discussion really leads us back to the original question, is the card good enough for a main deck slot?

I still believe it is awesome as a proactive disruptor.  Having a 40% chance of having it in play turn 0 is admirably strong.  Most tiered decks are sufficiently suppressed by it for serve its purpose of establishing good board position and staying alive long enough to win yourself.  And, as I believe the entire format is truly waning away from several of the time honored aspects of the format (moxen, the incredible skill level it takes to compete at top levels, and as was evident by the rise of stax the shift from conventual magic play).

I would like to hear more of your input on this subject, especially in relation to this card in stax variants, CS, and Fish. 
I don't think that Gifts would have room for it, nor does it really care about the kind of disruption this card creates on its opponent.

Theoretically speaking, what cards could these decks part with to include Leyline?

[zeus-online]

5 color Uba stax, Uba Stax, and5 color stax could incorporate the card into their main decks, as it is a 40% chance to knock out an opponent's yard turn 0 for 0 mana, and also because they have an effective filter mechanism. 

Yeah, but i'd bet that they'd rather hit some real resources, like mana, to prevent them from doing anything, or hindering them in doing stuff, rather then to mess with their yard.

It may just be me, but the sense of the entire format seems to be changing.  For the first time in a long while we see a deck that is totally void of power, blue, and artifacts running rampantly unchecked in our format (Ichorid). 

Urh, i haven't seen any data that shows ichorid "running rampant"...you should probably just say "For the first time in a long while we see a deck that is totally void of power, blue, and artifacts being VIABLE"

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but in current vintage magic don't all decks, in some fundamental way, utilize their graveyard in a similar way? 

Control Slaver:  Big on welders, has Thirst for Knowledge as a filter, loves that Yawgmoth's Will, all about setting up good board position.

Gifts:  What's recoup, Yawgmoth's will, and every other card your opponent sends to you graveyard going to do RFG'd?

All stax variants:  As discussed above, Crucible/Welder is almost what makes these decks in current builds where lock components and fat drops are at an all time low; thanks to our friend Bob the confidant.

Tendrils combo:  This one is arguable... I don't suppose that graveyard manipulation technically effects their ability to play nine spells and have 2BB mana remaining to tendrils for the win, but how less broken is Will in this case... and with a newer trend of playing Bazaar in these decks in order to optimize Will, the graveyard is becoming all the more important.

Bomberman, Oath, Dragon (yeah I know, who plays dragon anymore, besides me  lol...):   All have fundamental ties to their graveyard.

Except for U/W fish and EBA these have racked up huge numbers of top 8 finishes at some of the most prestigious vintage events in the world. 

Just because it hurts them, dosn't mean that you should run it...its not like most of these decks are shut down completely by Leyline, and you still got 60% of not drawing it in your opening hand, and sitting with 4 useless cards in your deck....Even with all the brainstorms, thirsts and bazaars, you can't be sure to have a way to convert dead-draws into usefull stuff.

I don't think there are many people who would argue against Duress being a firmly established icon in the world of disruption.  Turn one this card can lay to waste the most elaborate of dreams of glory in a magic player's mind.  What does this card do?  It removes one non-creature, non-land card from an opponent's hand and puts it in their graveyard (thus taking it away from their arsenal), and it has the added effect of giving you the knowledge of what exactly is in their hand.  Very solid.  But this card, aside from the times that it is Forced, through the alternative casting cost, really doesn't provide any sort of card advantage, usually isn't that useful when cast after turn 3 or 4 (except to protect your combo when going off), and after turn 5ish is, most times, a dead draw.  These points are exactly the arguments against Leyline that I've seen brought up, but no one really questions Duress's place of power in the main deck (and most of our most established archetypes today have experimented/had favorable results with the card in the main).  In opposition to Duress's not creating card advantage, Leyline does exactly that.  Every deck that has dreams of sending cards to the graveyard to Will, weld, play through Crucible, that they've discarded to Thirst, discarded to Tog, dredged, or discarded to Bazaar is gone, it makes cards without buyback (who plays buyback anyway) one time use only.  I believe this creates not only actual card advantage (removing at least x cards from the game through the use of 1 card), but also virtual card advantage (in the same way that Chalice of the Void set at a number where your opponent will feel the brunt of the effect).  In every other aspect it functions in a fundamentally similar way as Duress, it makes spells that an opponent had access to inaccessible. 

Duress isn't card-advantage, its card-parity...leyline is technically card-parity aswell (1 card out of hand, but you got a permanent to show for it), but just like duress its hit and miss...against a deck which does not utilize the graveyard, its carddisadvantage...same with a duress that hits a two-land hand or something like that. Duress does however deal with actual threats rather then to kill a threat that might, just might hit in a turn or two.
Duress also rips a piece of disruption out of the opponents hand, clearing the way...leyline can never do that.
Also, just for the record, leyline wouldn't affect buyback atall.

To Harlequin:  I agree 100% with the first half of your post.  I think that your analysis is right on.  As far as your views on Planar Void, I’m afraid I don't share your views.  Now of course in a non-powered (excluding manaless Ichorid), non-tiered environment this whole discussion is totally pointless.  In other decks besides stax variants, CS, Gifts, and combo variants the graveyard is a second class citizen hardly worthy of paying any heed to, but take it from one who thought along your lines that Planar Void could  be a substitute for Leyline...it doesn't work =(.  I had to discover this tasty bit of intelligence from a beating from Robert Vroman.  I was playing CS at the time and he was playing his trademark Uba Stax.  Game 2, with the intentions of nullifying his welders, his draw engine, and his Crucible I sided in 3 Planar Voids.  What I hadn't come to realize is that in the process of doing this I had inadvertently cut off my welders, my thirsts, and my Will.  Also, as you mentioned it is a triggered effect that can be played around by the common cards included in most of the decks it is designed to hinder.  As far as you other alternatives, I agree that they are comparable in effect, but they're hampered by their magnitude.  They are far less effective.

I'm unsure as to why you'd SB graveyard hate in, against stax....just for the welders? Shouldn't you be more worried about cards which limit your resources?.

I still believe it is awesome as a proactive disruptor.  Having a 40% chance of having it in play turn 0 is admirably strong.  Most tiered decks are sufficiently suppressed by it for serve its purpose of establishing good board position and staying alive long enough to win yourself.  And, as I believe the entire format is truly waning away from several of the time honored aspects of the format (moxen, the incredible skill level it takes to compete at top levels, and as was evident by the rise of stax the shift from conventual magic play).

You got 40% chance of having an awesome card, and 60% chance of having more dead-draws, i honestly cannot see that as being "awesome".


You are right on, when you say that disruption is just there to buy a turn or two, though.

Also, its not that i think leyline is the suck, its just that i can't see leyline being a worthy Maindeck, its way too narrow for that.
Even if the card technically is usefull in a match, dosn't mean that i'd want the card.
It might stop bomberman's combo, but it dosn't stop the beaters killing me,
it might stop the welders in stax, but if i'm down to 1 land against his board full of locks, do i really care if he has welders or not?
I could go on, but i think you understand my point.

/Zeus

[meadbert]

Graveyard hate is brutal for Uba Stax.

It shuts of their Welders and Crucibles and makes Bazaar of Baghdad a lot worse.

Also Barbarian Ring can no longer do damage. 

Leyline of the Void is incredibly annoying for Uba Stax to play around.  The trouble is if you are playing against Uba Stax a 4cc spell that is off color makes a TERRIBLE top deck.

[Harlequin]

#1) If you're going to run it, then you have to run 4.  It's an early game card... so you need 4.  That means you've dedicated 4 maindeck slots to GY hate.  There are very few decks on the market that need/afford that kind of commitment to hate.

When were talking about Maindeck Choices, you seem to be ignoreing point #1.  Can you justify opening 4 spots in your deck for a card that is Dedicated to GY Hate.  Would a 1to3-of tormods or Planar Void be better?

That point #1 is where I think decks like 5 color Stax fall short.  The deck is about lock, and you need solid cards that have a vast hosing effect.  Would you really care about bomberman if you resolve a chalice for 0?  would you really care about Yawg's will if you resolve a Sphere of Resistance? 

About Planar Void.  At the end of my rant about Planar Void I had the following sentance:

The main disadvantage to Planar Void is that the effect is symmetrical.  So you wouldn't want to play it in either Ichorid or Stax.

So we actaully Agree.  In your original post it was unclear if you were talking about Ichord, Stax, both, or Main decks in general.  So I assumed we were talking about Maindeck GY hate on a broad spectrum.  So I including Planar Void as an option.

[meadbert]

By the way 3 Leyline of the Void and 1 Tormod's Crypt is superior to 4 Leyline of the Void in almost any deck that runs tutors.

You can still mulligan into Crypt or Leyline just as effectively and you have the added ability of Vamping for Tormod's Crypt where a Vamp for Leyline would be pretty bad.

[roberts91rom]

How is 4xLeyline more effective than 4xTormod's Crypt? The only deck that Leyline is better than Tormod's is in Manaless Ichorid. Any Stax can use Welder to recurr Tormod's Crypt for the same effect as Leyline, without being worried about having it bounced or a dead draw. (Tormod's can't be bounced in an ideal situation, because in response you either RFG or you replay it on your own turn. ) Stax can also discard Tormod's to Bazaar to use with welder, instead of throwing it into the graveyard with no further purposes. Tormod is never a dead draw because multiples help greatly with Trickbind being played more and more.

Leyline is a poor lock piece in Stax, however it looks very solid in Manaless Ichorid. 40% chance that you will greatly hinder your opponent does not look bad. This is not to mention that you can mull into it if necessary, since the deck is made to mulligan. The other "60%" of the time you will dredge it into the graveyard where it would be no more useless than any other piece of disruption you would run in that slot. Even then you have to deal with Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Chain of Vapor, etc. However, the fact that every piece of countermagic would be aimed at Tormod's (Since it is the only spell you cast.) makes Leyline better. Not to mention they will probably be tutoring for their own Tormod's instead of bounce.

Short Version^tm

In my opinion any deck that could make room for 4xLeyline might as well run 4xTormod's Crypt instead.
PRO
1. Tinker
2. Bounce-proof
3. Casteable
4. Almost never a dead draw
5. Goblin Welder
6. Tutorable
7. Thirst for Knowledge
8. Good with a non-lethal/card advantage Yawgmoth's Will
CON
1. Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Trickbind (All do the same thing)
2. MAY need 2 to stop them (Rarely if you use Tormod's properly)

Leyline>Tormod's in Ichorid, Tormod's>Leyline in every other deck.

[Dominik]

How is 4xLeyline more effective than 4xTormod's Crypt? The only deck that Leyline is better than Tormod's is in Manaless Ichorid. Any Stax can use Welder to recurr Tormod's Crypt for the same effect as Leyline, without being worried about having it bounced or a dead draw. (Tormod's can't be bounced in an ideal situation, because in response you either RFG or you replay it on your own turn. ) Stax can also discard Tormod's to Bazaar to use with welder, instead of throwing it into the graveyard with no further purposes. Tormod is never a dead draw because multiples help greatly with Trickbind being played more and more.

Leyline is a poor lock piece in Stax, however it looks very solid in Manaless Ichorid. 40% chance that you will greatly hinder your opponent does not look bad. This is not to mention that you can mull into it if necessary, since the deck is made to mulligan. The other "60%" of the time you will dredge it into the graveyard where it would be no more useless than any other piece of disruption you would run in that slot. Even then you have to deal with Echoing Truth, Rushing River, Chain of Vapor, etc. However, the fact that every piece of countermagic would be aimed at Tormod's (Since it is the only spell you cast.) makes Leyline better. Not to mention they will probably be tutoring for their own Tormod's instead of bounce.

Short Version^tm

In my opinion any deck that could make room for 4xLeyline might as well run 4xTormod's Crypt instead.
PRO
1. Tinker
2. Bounce-proof
3. Casteable
4. Almost never a dead draw
5. Goblin Welder
6. Tutorable
7. Thirst for Knowledge
8. Good with a non-lethal/card advantage Yawgmoth's Will
CON
1. Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Trickbind (All do the same thing)
2. MAY need 2 to stop them (Rarely if you use Tormod's properly)

Leyline>Tormod's in Ichorid, Tormod's>Leyline in every other deck.

I agree with your analysis Robert, however I must point out that some decks, like ICBM Oath and Fish, run Chalices and/or Null Rods themselves- thereby weakening the effectiveness of Crypt (i.e./ when facing gifts, you don't want to attack only their mana or only their graveyard- optimally you want to attack both). This may be over-simplifying the situation a bit, but consider the following: You have a chalice or rod out, and draw a T-Crypt. Would this T-Crypt not be around as useless as a Leyline in this particular scenario? This means that the real winner in the boards of Oath and Fish (with black) is Planar Void.

Here are the pros it shares with crypt:

PRO
2. Bounce-proof (for the same reasons as before, you just replay it)
3. Casteable
4. Almost never a dead draw
6. Tutorable
8. Good with a non-lethal/card advantage Yawgmoth's Will

and the CONS:
1. Costs a black
2. Dragon can Necromancy in resp. to Void trigger.

In short, what I wanted to say is:

For decks with Art. Mana Disruption of their own, Planar Void > Crypt
For Ichorid, Leyline > Crypt
For Most other decks (i.e/ Gifts, Slaver, etc), Crypt > Planar Void > Leyline

Of course, there are probably some exceptions to the rule, but I think the point I was trying to make it quite clear (just expanding on Robert's arguments, and adding Planar Void into the analysis).

Also, in decks running Chalice/Rod, but not running black, I still believe crypt to be superior to leyline.

[roberts91rom]

Forgot about Planar Void until some time last night when I couldn't get to a computer, and I agree completely with the diagram. Only a few more problems with Planar Void.

1. Can't remove cards already in the graveyard.
2. Not as bounce-proof as Crypt because it can't be sacrificed in response, or deal with point #1. This can lead to bounce followed by dumping their bombs and waiting for Will.
3. Anything past the first one is pointless, because there is almost no enchantment destruction and Echoing Truth (the bounce of choice for control decks at the moment) still hits both.

However, the fact that Tormod's is an artifact is a pro and a con depending on the deck. Also by point #8. I meant that you could replay Crypt out of the graveyard with Will. It is highly unlikely that Planar Void will hit the graveyard due to a lack of enchantment hate so it really only shares points #3,#6 and #2 (situationaly).

[meadbert]

How is 4xLeyline more effective than 4xTormod's Crypt?

This is a good point.  One mistake people make is they test a sideboard with 2 Tormod's Crypts and then they try one with 4 Leyline of the Void.  Then they see the 4 Leylines hated on yards better and they draw the conclusion that Leyline is better.  To compare Crypt to Leyline you need to keep quantities the same.  Compare 4 Crypts to 4 Leylines or 2 Crypts to 2 Leylines.  If you do that then you will find that for almost every deck Tormod's Crypt is better.

[Khahan]

As a slaver player, I hate seeing a leyline to start the game. But I can play around it until I find my bounce. And once that spell is found, leyline is no longer a problem.  Usually by then I've sculpted  my hand and win shortly thereafter.

I don't mind planar void so much. I can, again, sculpt my hand and make the plays necessary to weld in response to it.  I cannot stop me from welding. But in a longer a game, it can stall me out.

I think crypt is on about the same level as PV (as far as playing AGAINST it with slaver goes).  I need to play around it, sculpt my hand and force them to use it. But once its used, I can do whatever I wish...unlike planar void.  All in all, I'd rather see a leyline than a planar void than a crypt.