6Moon.dec - Inspired by spoiled FS cards.

[Harlequin]

Please note that this decklist is not yet legal ... or even in print.

6Moons.dec

6 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
3 Keldon Megalith <-- Future Sight card
4 Mishrah's workshop

5 Moxen
3 Sol, Crypt, Lotus
4 Simian Spirit guide
-27-

4 Orb of Dreams
3 Blood Moon
3 Magus of the Moon <-- Future Sight card
3 Null Rod
1 Tinisphere
-14-

4 Welder
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Viashino
-11-

2 Greater Gargadon
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
-8-

Board:
1 Rod
2 Shattering Spree

5 Reb/Pyro

3 Slice and dice
4 creature removal (probably a 2:2 split)
   - Darts
   - Dupes (1MD)
   - Dead and Gone

==========================================

So, I've been regularly testing a deck that we call "Jaws."  The name, for those of you who don't know, is derived from the description: It's Fish ... but they type of fish where you need a bigger boat

On the Fish continuem:
-- w/U fish -- U/B/W fish --------- TMWA ------------------------- Jaws --

Now, in the Future sight spoiler, this deck certainly finds a card that lets me pop'one.

Magus of the Moon
Creature
All non-basics are Mountains
2/2

Blood Moon has always been a pivitol card for the deck.  I am always happy to have a blood moon, and I have always (with some lingering acceptions) played the deck with 4 main deck.  Magus of the moon not only allows me to potentially run 8 moons, it provides other fring benefits.

3:3 - Moons:ManMoons

I think 3 of each is the right choice.  Simply put, I would rather have 1 of each than 2 of one.  The ManMoons are interesting because they can be more agressive.  Alowing me the opertunity to swing damage in.  Obviously, a creature is vastly easier to remove than a enchantment.  The other "coolness" points that can be awarded to ManMoon is that he can be sac'ed to Greater Gargadon ... where Blood Moon cannot.  This gives me the ability to again, be agressive and risky.  If the my opponent has a few good basics in play (or has duels tapped out, then I can eat ManMoon, and use my Shops and damage lands with good speed.  Ideally replaying a Moon (of either type) after I have spent all my non-basic lands. 


3 Keldon Megalith

Land -
Comes into play tapped
T: R
Hellbent - 1R, T: Deal 1 damage to target creature or player. (use this ability only if you have no cards in hand).

I Like this card.  In basically every other deck, I think it is inferior to Barbarian Ring... However, with the way this deck sets-up, Megaliths may be better than ring.  It is at least worth testing.  Really, I'm testing it's mid-lategame power verse the huge disadvantage on turns 1 and 2.  I will more than likely cut this card back.  However, the Turn 1 Shop-> Orb makes this card more interesting...

1 Titan!
This spot I'm a bit on the fense about.  I really want a recurable way to destroy basic lands ... that is not an activated artifact or a non-basic land.  Titan appears to be the best, but wieghing in at 8 mana doesn't make me too happy.  Esp, with no reliable way to discard him (razormane, wheel, jar).

Other options:
- Sisemic Mage.  3R - 1/1 creature| 2R, discard a card: destroy target land.
> He's interesting especially because lands come into play tapped.  Hes a Solid pick, but at 4 mana he is a bit steap.  I'm not sure I can afford to run him... Also the 1/1 body I'm not thrilled about either.

- Orcish Squatters!  4R - 2/3 creature| If orcish squaters attacks and is not blocked, you can have it deal no damage to gain control of target land defending player controls.
> wieghing in a 5 mana ... hes somewhere between the over-costed Siesmic Mage, and the grossly costed sundering titan.  Hes a 2/3 which makes him a good hammer against fish.  Against Gifts or slaver, he can theoretically steal the game, by stealing away precious basics.

- 4th ManMoon
There is definate merit to a 4th ManMoon.  Its a solid beater, and just gives me that extra chance to cast a turn 1-2 Moon.  Also If I have a ManMoon down, the 2nd would be good because it means my opponent can't use a targeted removal/damage spell to kill my only moon.  If I were to make it 7Moons.dec then I would go 3:4 on with 4 ManMoons because In the case where I have 2 moons in hand and its not one of each - I would rather have x2 ManMoons instead of x2 Blood Moon for obvious reasons.


The real question is:  What is my best card for basic land destruction in this slot?  I'm sure there are plenty of land-kill cards that could fit this spot. 

[madmanmike25]

Since you don't run Bazaar's do you really need 4 Goblin Welders??  They do nothing unless an opponent counters a spell.

Also, how good is Greater Gargadon without Crucible?  In all honesty, how good is he with Crucible for that matter?   Is he good enough to be in the maindeck...

I also would recommend Juggernauts over Solemn Simulacrum since SS is only decent with Goblin Welder recursion, and even then that could be a little too slow.  Do you use Heretics to get one in the GY?

Titan seems hard to weld in and/or cast.  Especially true with 6 Blood Moons.  I usually like 2 Duplicants in my workshop decks, I would add one more in.

I think you should reverse the B-Ring/Megalith count.  Getting a Orb of Dreams is the ideal situation to make Megalith playable, just don't consider Orb a standard for its inclusion.  Since you are running 6 Moons, both B-Ring and Megalith will most likely be Mountains before you get Threshold or Hellbent.  At least B-Ring won't come into play tapped.

Did Pyro Pillar not make the cut?  Please explain why.

Juggernauts+Heretics+Pillar in the same deck seems like a pretty decent clock.  Have you considered this?

Other than that, a 2/2 Blood Moon is kick ass.

[Harlequin]

Your first three statements are generally acceptable critatism .. but I feel like togehter they explain themself:

So to summarize your observation in my own words:

1) 4 welders is too many (for a deck with no outlets and low artifact count)
2) Where is Crucible? (gargadon is bad w/o crucible)
3) Why Simulacrum over ... [Jugg/Dupe]

I don't run the typical lock-shop non-basics.  Namely Bazaar and Wasteland.  Even when I was running only 4 Moons, I found that when I drew one I either A) wanted the non-basic land to be mountains, or B) had bloodmoon down, and didn't care what they were.  Also, I don't run Smokestacks - so Crucible is next to worthless.  But I still needed a way to generate "free" land drops.  Enter Simulacrum.  Simulacrum is probably most closely filling the crucible slot.  He gets a land when I need it.  Turn 1 Shop-Mox-Sim is great set up for turn 2 Bloodmoon (+welder/Orb/Rod depending on how I tap my shop).  There was a time when I though that I may not want to play Welder.  Most of my deck is actually Red... not artifacts.  But lets face it, welder is one of the best red creatures in the game.  He is an offensive choice along side heratic against shops.  Hes great against control because they -will- counter your artifacts, and in a way, he makes artifact uncounterable.  He provides great tricks not only with Sim, but with Dupe, Gargadon, and Orb of Dreams (weld out orb at EOT then weld it back at the end of my turn).  Gargadon is probably the hardest to grasp.  But in testing, he is amazing.  What you have to realize is that I'm not trying to be TurboGarg.dec.  He eats anything that would normally die, and slow rolls into play.  When I have 2-3 counter on him, I can plop him down after chomping a few moxen or mountians.  Gargadon + Welder = Artifact are really hard to kill/Bounce.  Consider "EOT I chain of vapor your null rod"  in reponse I eat rod, and weld out mox->Rod.  Problem solved!

@ Megalith - I agree.  a 3:2 vrs a 2:3 is probably better.  For the time being I'm going to test them as a 3-of just to see how they feel.

@ Pyrostatic Pillars.  I used to run 4 maindeck.  But I don't run them any more.  The simplest reason I don't run pilliars is: Its not REB.  REB & Pyro are almost always better than Pillars. 

@Titan - I totally agree.  I'm certianly on the fence about running titan.  I address spesifically my concern about him getting stuck in my hand in my post.  That's also why I put in some possible other options for his slot.  Rod #4 or Dupe #2 are certainly good options.

@Juggs over Sims -- Personally, I really dislike Juggernaught.  But asside from my personal thoughts on him - I think Sim is better for this deck.  Remeber, my mana curve is very high (its a shop deck afterall), and when I have moon down I get very land hungry.  Sim is amazing for that 4cc level. So, the only card I would end up cutting for Juggs is possibly Razormane.  But Razormane can single handedly win agianst fish.  He practicically has "find swords in 4 turns or loose the game" written on him.

@The Clock -- I don't think true "Shop Agro" can exsist right now.  They are just too slow.  This deck is designed to slow my opponent by spesficially punishing duels, fetches, and moxen.  Its not a "lock" deck either.  So it needs a balance in the clock and the lock.  If I wanted to make it faster, sure pyro/jugg/heratic ... but where would I cut?? It's sure as heck not going to be Orb of Dreams!

[BreathWeapon]

ManOnTheMoon.dec, PWNed!

I'm building something similar in 1.5, and I'd bet that Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are better than Mishra's Workshop in this deck at resolving turn one Moons and supporting other non-artifact MD and SB cards. No Strip Mine? That just seems wrong.

Dwarven Blastminer can remove the non-basic mountains, and they're a 1/1 or 2/2 with Morph. Avalanche Riders is another option, but their 4cc with Echo and are a one time deal.

Chalice of the Void seems better than Orb of Dreams to me, and there's nothing for Goblin Welder to target, so Gorilla Shamans?  Greater Gargadon is such jank, Arcslogger at 3RR is amazing for a 4/5 R: 2 Damage against Fish, and even Covetous Dragon at 4R for a 6/5 Flying is better than that crap.

Instead of running Slice and Dice, could this deck be designed to use ETW itself? It has up to 12 artifact accelerants ( Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal all resolve a Moon with a 2 mana land), 4 Chalice of the Void and Great Furnace to increase the storm count, and it's awesome with/against Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

1.5 has some cool lists to reference in Dragon Stompy http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4361 and this german invention http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=7845 which I've been screwing around with all morning.

Edit: It just occurred to me that Bloodmoon is the single strongest hate card against Ichorid, damn it's good.

[Harlequin]

I know its the typical "Imrpovement Forum" Response .. but sometimes you just gotta play a few hands.  I have brought this type of deck to about 5-6 tournements and in its most recent incarnation (timespiral), to at least 2.  I'll put it this way: Orb-Rod-Moon  is much more difficult for a deck to deal with than Tangle-Sphere-Stax.  As I've said in other threads, the reason is that Orb-Rod-Moon are all static effects that realavant all the time.  Tangle and Smokestacks are both triggered only.  So outside of the upkeep, they are irrelevant.

Chalice of the Void seems better than Orb of Dreams to me, and there's nothing for Goblin Welder to target, so Gorilla Shamans?  Greater Gargadon is such jank, Arcslogger at 3RR is amazing for a 4/5 R: 2 Damage against Fish, and even Covetous Dragon at 4R for a 6/5 Flying is better than that crap.

Chalice seems way worse than orb to me.  You can't chalice fetchlands, and you can't chalice ichorid creatures, you can't chalice dragon, mindslaver, wastelands.  Also, Chalice and Shammans are both mana-denial and permenant hate.  So chalice along side tangle and stax are synergistic.  I don't actually care about what you have in play - I care about makeing what you have in play worthless to you. 

Gargadon costs 1 mana.  I don't see any comparison to Arcslogger or covetous dragon.  Those cards are late game cards, in which I would have to dedicate an entire turn to casting either of them.  They are just like Juggernaughts ... but worse because rather than consuming turn 2-3 - they are only good on turn 6-7.  Gargadon is like that rotisery chicken thing on the infomertial channels: "set it and forget it."  whenever I have a spare up, I can just susspend this guy and have an imminent 2-turn clock on them.

Instead of running Slice and Dice, could this deck be designed to use ETW itself? It has up to 12 artifact accelerants ( Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond and Lotus Petal all resolve a Moon with a 2 mana land), 4 Chalice of the Void and Great Furnace to increase the storm count, and it's awesome with/against Smokestack and Tangle Wire.

What would I put ETW in against?  I have amazing match-ups agians fish and stax... so really I'm reading:  "You should cut your most important card against drain decks - to add more fish and stax hate!"  Drain decks like slaver and gifts are my worst match-ups.  I need slice and dice to even have a shot to win 1 game post board. 

[rkmancer]

It's the most interesting deck since i start play magic years ago..maybe the 1st reason bcause the deck maximise my fave card (blood moon^^). .i tested the previous version (without man moon since he's not published yet). .it's fun but have a fatal weakness. .too slow!!

Without card drawer (welder n solemn 's too conditional). .this deck passed a lot of chance to win the game. .maybe we can say when orb is in the play. .blodd moon is the play. .n the almighty spere 's also there we hv a perfect lock. .but when the killers comes too late (only greater n raz mastircore?? 4 : 60. .who's said opponent doesn't have plains n stp. .or FoW lha). .
Solemn just 2/2. .but remove him from the MD is not a good act. .i've replace them with juggernout. .n the result we have a lack of mountain here..

ManMoon maybe the best answer for that weakness. .additional 2/2 ceratures (i'll run the moonman for 4!! it's a must!!). .maybe will increase the speed to win. .but still. .we need the drawer. .
I understand that bazaar won't match in this deck. .it's land. .will be red when the moon on  but what else?? Maybe bottle cloister or dark confidant(it's black i know. .just some idea  ) ??

One more problem. .may i replace razor masticore with jaya balard?? it's sounds better for me. .without drawer. .continues discard my hand to hv that big lion it sucks. .jaya balard only discard when it's needed. .n it's good againts fish too. .(okay. .i know only ninja n meddling mage affected). .it cost only 3. .much easier then masticore (5) when workshop turn to red. .
I've test the red Akroma. .8cc or 6cc (morph) still makes me ill. .begh. .tough the reason 's for 'late game'

Also. .i like Dead/Gone so much. .it's too good to be remove from maindeck. .(my meta have a lot of fish and huge crature 'titan' to deal). .maybe someone can help me to make a slot to put up 3 dead/gone??

In the end. .the other fish decks (or hate decks  ) have tutor with them. .the one n only red tutor is gamble. .is it worthed to be added for the moondeck??

--someone who's building this deck for next vintage tournament  may the red win again--
--like my post before this. .so sorry if u find some spelling that's not usual, my english 's not that good--

[Harlequin]

@ The speed of the deck: 
Like any other lock deck, the goal is to be able to bring your opponent down to your speed. Rod, and Orb are my favored turn 1 drops, Which are obviously overpowered by the more rare turn1 Trinisphere or Moon.  Almost any 7 hand without a turn 1 or 2 disruption peice is pratically an auto-mull.  Remember the deck is closer to U/W fish than it is to Shop Agro or Stax.  Just like fish, you only need to slow your opponent long enough to hit 10 times with some 2/2's.  Simulacrum, SSG, Heratic, and now Magus of the Moon are the primary kill conditions in the deck.  Razormane and Garg have thier rolls but saying the has 4 cards out of 60 for win conditions is just plan incorrect.

@ Draw.  I don't really feel like the deck needs draw oustide of Jar/Wheel and simulacrum + welder.  I have tested Mind's Eye, Wheel of Fate, as well as Cloister and Grafted Skullcap.  None are that good.

@ Gamble/Bazaar.  I have tested in a slighlty different focused deck.  For a brief time I tested 4 gamble, 3 squee, 4 bazaar, and 1 possessed portal.  I really felt the deck lost alot in versatility and resilance to hate.  So I dropped that idea.

@ 4 Magus of the Moon
I'm still in the process of testing what the right number of moons is.  But I'm certainly leaning towards 7 moons in the deck: 4 mans + 3 badmoons. 

@Sim's vrs Juggs:
With Rod and Moon, I think Simulacrum is essential.   Turn 1 Simulacrum can be essential to droping a turn 2 blood moon.  Simulacrum lets you essentially play 2 lands in one turn.  I think people really misunderstand Simulacrum's roll in the deck.  You can't replace simulacrum with juggernaught in the same way you can't replace lands for juggernaughts.  Simulacrum is an essential tool to the mana base.  If I had a gun to my head and had to replace Simulacrum I would replace it with Crucible (and change my land situation). 

Take a Look at a typical "Great Draw" (not a god-hand, but a solid gamewinning hand, not reliant on 1-of brokenness).   Shop, Mountain[B-Ring], Mox, Simulacrum, Moon, [nullrod/orb/Welder/Greater Garg],[anything].   
Turn 1: Shop, Mox -> simulacrum.
Dependin on what card you have out of [welder/GG/rod/orb].
Turn 2A:  Mountain, tap shop -> Orb or Rod; tap out -> Moon.
Turn 2B:  Mountain tap -> Moon, tap shop (now a mountain) -> Welder [or suspend Garg].

Now sub Jugg into Sim's spot:  Shop, Mountain, Mox, Jugg, Moon, [welder/nullrod/orb]
... that hand is much weaker.  That hand is actually signifigantly slower. One play is to go - Turn 1 Jugg + Turn 3 Moon.  Depending on the [other] card, you may have other options like turn 1 orb, turn 3 jugg, or turn 1 rod, turn 2 jugg, or turn 1 welder turn 2 jugg (or maybe moon).  None of them seem that amazing, and none of them are focused on the advantage of turn 2 moon.

*Now factor in Force of Will, perception can come into play in a major way.  Think of it from across the table.  If my opponent plays turn 1 juggernaught - I only need to decide "can I race/answer juggernaught? if yes -> resolves, if no -> Force."   If my opponent plays turn 1 simulacrum its a much more difficult call, because Simulacrum isn't a clock.  There's no question of raceing and nothing to answer.  Now the question is "How much do I think my opponent needs that Mountain..."  It's alot like countering a turn 1 brainstorm - sometimes it breaks your opponent's hand in half ... other times its a huge waste of a counterspell.  So I find that turn 1 simulacrum is rarely countered (and often, I wouldn't even care if it was countered; and sometimes I'm happy when they counter it). 

@ Razormane vrs Jaya
Razormane Is better than Jaya against fish I think.  Well it really depends.  I like that Razormane is an artifact, with welder you can do some good tricks durring your upkeep and draw steps to maximize his effectivness.  With Razormane, you discard a card, draw a card, shoot for 3 creature damage, then can attack for 5.  No mana investment.  With Jaya you get 1 slight advantage - namely that you get to draw your card first.  So you draw a card, deside which card is better, play that card, pass the turn.  Then you either counter a spell or Incinerate for 3.  And invest 1 or 2 mana in the process.  Also lets say you draw that bomb that must play - but its the last card in your hand.  If you play it, Jaya becomes worthless until your next draw step.  Razormane is still a 5/5 first striker - but the disadvantage is that he dies at the start of your next turn.  The one benefit of Jaya is that she can counter spells, spesifically Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Mana Drain, and Gifts Ungiven.   The counter-point to this is that with any luck, your opponent will have a hard time finding blue mana, so the REB ability starts looking not-so-great.

@ Dead and Gone.  I would love for this to fit in the deck.  But the new Magus just pushed it off the list and possibly into the board.  If you have alot of Fish and Oath in your area, you may want to pre-side out something to make room for it on the main.  I have no need to do this based on my meta.

[TopSecret]

     I think if you are looking for more basic land destruction,
     I'd suggest Destructive Urge.
    You said your deck is more like fish,
    and this card is more like Curiosity!

     Also, if you're looking for something else,
     I'd say that Boil might be a good bet as a 1 or 2 'of.
   I would've suggested Raze first, but you don't use Crucible.
   It could be good, though.

[rkmancer]

Lol. .i've just know there's a card named Destructive Urge. .hv u test it in the deck?? the ability sounds nice. .but 'll it work??

@Harlequin. .addin' 4 gamble, 3 squee, 4 bazaar, and 1 possessed portal looks like u change this deck to another deck (i think it's named Cerebral Assassin ^^). .all that i do 's just to add 'gamble' for conditional tutor *ex : search solemn when u just hv welder looks nice for me. .coz even u discard it. .welder can put it up*

[BreathWeapon]

Here's an interesting budget* build,

1 Strip Mine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Mana Crypt
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

1 Trinisphere
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Blood Moon

4 Choke
4 Root Maze

4 Juggernaut**
4 Su-Chi**

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Slice and Dice
4 Viashino Heretic
4 Goblin Vandal

* I would use 2 mana lands and spirit guides regardless of whether or not I had Workshops and moxen,  because all of them enable turn one Moons, Choke, casting an additional threat with ESG into Maze and non-artifact creatures.

**These could just be red creatures or 3cc creatures, I just wanted something to generate card advantage against Fish.

Control and aggro-control have serious issues with all of the soft lock components, combo is managable if the deck can get either a Moon or a Choke to do some damage or Trinisphere, Null Rod or Chalice of the Void to just disable them, prison is terrible, but that's what the SB is for and Ichorid just dies against aggressive mulliganing.

The deck, sans Mana Crypt, cost us less than 300 dollars to put together, and it seems to have a good game against most of the field, sans Oath, with a lot of SBing options.

[demonic effect]

@ Razormane vrs Jaya
Razormane Is better than Jaya against fish I think.  Well it really depends.  I like that Razormane is an artifact, with welder you can do some good tricks durring your upkeep and draw steps to maximize his effectivness.  With Razormane, you discard a card, draw a card, shoot for 3 creature damage, then can attack for 5.  No mana investment.  With Jaya you get 1 slight advantage - namely that you get to draw your card first.  So you draw a card, deside which card is better, play that card, pass the turn.  Then you either counter a spell or Incinerate for 3.  And invest 1 or 2 mana in the process.  Also lets say you draw that bomb that must play - but its the last card in your hand.  If you play it, Jaya becomes worthless until your next draw step.  Razormane is still a 5/5 first striker - but the disadvantage is that he dies at the start of your next turn.  The one benefit of Jaya is that she can counter spells, spesifically Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Mana Drain, and Gifts Ungiven.   The counter-point to this is that with any luck, your opponent will have a hard time finding blue mana, so the REB ability starts looking not-so-great.

Jaya doesn't have the full REB ability... Sure, he can destroy blue permenants but he can't counter blue spells like gifts etc... Since the only blue spells that you may actually destroy are B2B and possibly ITEoC neither of which truly hurt this deck Jaya merely becomes a Razor thatis a longer clock and eats up mana..  The fact that you may not have to discard a card is minimal since either A. the deck you are playing is something like gifts where you should have already established a "lock" before playing either creature or B. the card you must discard is essential to creating a lock and thus you let razormane die, cast the lock piece, and then either continue to beat with other 2/2's or weld razormane in... This slight drawback does not outweigh the boost of not needing mana, faster clock (which also means you can sometimes kill 2 creatures since razormane is sometimes blocked), and welderable

On the deck as a whole I have just a few questions:
1.  Why is ancient tomb not being included?  I understand that shops provide 1 more mana and all and don't deal damage but, considering there are only a few artifacts in the deck that need mana to be cast and considering that one of the main cards you need to resolve is either an enchantment or a creature both of which need 2 colorless... why not include it?  Not to mention, once a moon is resolved then tomb no longer deals damage to you.... It seems that the trade-off being able to cast your most powerful hate card sooner would be worth 2 damage early on...
    With this in mind, I know that this disrupts the simulacrum play making the creature worse... but is the creature really necessary to the deck?  One of the reasons he was needed was to smoothe out the mana base b/c if one had a shop in play then the deck had to get out non-shop mana quickly to be able to cast moon etc...  Tomb seems to mitigate this and, while i know simulacrum is cool with welder tricks and all are there not better cards that can be included?

2.   The deck's focus seems to be a little off but maybe that's just me...  with 7 moons (since you talk about adding in the 4th magus) hopefully you will draw one in the top 9 cards (sooner would be best)...  Before other cards needed to be included to provide enough disruption till you found a moon and could cast it to solidify the lock...  Since that card is so powerful and you have it much quicker it seems that the other lock pieces are kinda secondary...  Don't get me wrong, a turn 1 orb will still be a good play... but how does it compare to a turn 1 moon?  How effective does orb become after a turn 1 moon has been dropped?  I am not saying that other disruption pieces should be kicked... but it seems that the deck has the potential to play much more aggressively than before... IDK just food for thought I'm just curious what your testing has shown.

3.   On Gargadon... I understand how cool it is to be able to just play him and forget about him when you have the chance...  However he seems like a win more card and so I have two questions about him
      A.  How often are you truly sacrificing permenants to him?  I understand some cool tricks can occur, but is it truly often enough to get him into play early?
      B.  In the cases that you have sacrificed a lot of permenants to him, at that piont in the game don't you generally have a sufficient lock on them?  Meaning that whether or not the creature is 9/7 or a 2/2 that you should win?

All in all I'm just wondering what testing has shown

[WhiteWolf]

On the deck as a whole I have just a few questions:
1.  Why is ancient tomb not being included?  I understand that shops provide 1 more mana and all and don't deal damage but, considering there are only a few artifacts in the deck that need mana to be cast and considering that one of the main cards you need to resolve is either an enchantment or a creature both of which need 2 colorless... why not include it?  Not to mention, once a moon is resolved then tomb no longer deals damage to you.... It seems that the trade-off being able to cast your most powerful hate card sooner would be worth 2 damage early on...
    With this in mind, I know that this disrupts the simulacrum play making the creature worse... but is the creature really necessary to the deck?  One of the reasons he was needed was to smoothe out the mana base b/c if one had a shop in play then the deck had to get out non-shop mana quickly to be able to cast moon etc...  Tomb seems to mitigate this and, while i know simulacrum is cool with welder tricks and all are there not better cards that can be included?

I'm testing a variation of this deck myself and have contemplated using Ancient Tombs too. In the little testing I did with them they often seriously helped in casting Blood Moon and Viashino Heretic much smoother and faster. The fact that Moon makes them Mountains after they've performed their primary use (providing 2 colorless mana) is great too. Now I've got 2 questions for you:

1) Would you replace Workshops with Tombs (that isn't really clear to me in your post) ?
2) How many Tombs would you include (this of course depends on the inclusion/cutting of Workshops)?

One thought I had was going something like - 4 Workshop (& - 2 Mountain) + 4 Ancient Tomb (& + 2 City of Traitors)

With such a land configuration you could include other 2R "bombs" like Words of War (a semi-lock against Fish and random aggro I've learned, also nice for taking out utility critters like Welder and Confidant), Warmonger (ok, pretty janky but could be good). The problem is you maybe would have to cut the more expensive artifacts like Razormane Masticore and Duplicant.

@ Harlequin: I would love to see your opinion on the inclusion of Ancient Tomb (or other 2-mana lands). Thanks for the great deck idea by the way, I love it!

[Harlequin]

I used to play with 3 tombs and 4 workshops.  Then it was 2 tombs and 4 workshops ... then they were cut all together.  In most hands (when I played 4 shops) I would have rather had 1 red mana over 2 colorless.

I have never considered Tomb over Shop... becaues Its hard to imagine cutting shop.   Haveing never tested its effect, I would venture a guess that its probably not better than shop, in my build - but perhapse could be better if you re-tooled the deck. (like the budget list above... but with Cathodin over Suchi).

Considering Shop --> Tomb.
Uneffected: Welder, Null Rod*, Garg.
Better with tomb: ManMoon*, BMoon*, Viashino.
Worse with tomb: Orb*, Tinisphere* Sim*, Razormane, Duplicant, Jar.

Things I *-ed are what are really realvant on turn 1.  Of -all- turn 1 plays Orb (and tinisphere) are the best.
Infact My order of Turn 1 awsomeness:
#1) Trinisphere
 - Stops: OMG everything
 - Ruined by: turn 1 wasteland or shop, double Spirit guide Shattering spree!
 - At its finest: they only have a 2 land hand and I destroy them.

#2) Orb
 - Stops: everything for 1 turn
 - Ruined by: Not having a good turn 2 play.
 - At its finest: They have a heavy fetchland hand and are set back more than one turn.  Also followed by a turn 3 or so moon can be crippling.

#3) Rod
 - Stops: Moxen, Lotus
 - Ruined by: Fish, Brainstorm, not having a good turn 2 play.
 - At its finest:  They have a heavy mox hand, with lots of high CC stuff (thirst/Gifts).

#4) Moon
 - Stops: Land development
 - Ruined by: on-color moxen, lotus, petal, or a basic in hand.
 - At its finest: they have no basics in hand or on-color moxen, and get colorscrewed.

#5) Simulacrum
#6) Welder
------------------

Looking at that list, I start to realize how important a turn 1 shop is.  My best two cards for first turn disruption are Orb and 3sphere. 

Considering the opening hand - on the play.
Mountain, Mox, Mox, Orb, Blood Moon, Viashino, Simulacrum.

I would play Orb turn 1, and not moon (unless my opponent mulled or possibly is fish*).  Becuase it practically gaurentees that Moon will resolve on turn 2.  Consider the two scenarios:
- Orb resolves.  That means they may not have a force.  Now even if they play a fetchland, Moon will be amazing.  Even if they have Island-Saphire-Drain.  I am probalby safe to resolve Moon on turn 2.
- Orb is forced.  Now they are down 2 cards and have to find a second counter before next turn. 
- Orb is forced ... and they go busted-nuts and play have brainstorm into 2nd force or have land sapphire drain (or lotus drain).  But in that case, If they still have enough gas for the win... then they got luckier than me and playing moon before orb wasn't going to change that luck.

* If I know my opponent is WU(x) fish, then I would probably go with turn 1 moon because of Daze, and because 3 color fish typically has a very low basic count.

[BreathWeapon]

There's no point in using Workshops just for Orb and 3Ball when splashing Green and using ESGuide lets people use Root Maze. I've had hands that were just Ancient Tomb, ESGuide, Null Rod and Root Maze that ended the game right then and there against the opponent, and 3Ball is just a singleton, and it can be cast off a 2 mana land and an accelerant just fine.

A lot of interesting creatures to run in here, Petravark seems to be an unrestricted Strip Mine on legs under a Trinisphere or Blood Moon, and Dwarven Blastminer can remove all of the "Mountains" that Choke can't tap and he's a reasonable clock with Morph.

Warmonger isn't just jank, that's a MD answer to ETW and Fish and a 5 turn clock, that's just awesome.

I'm going to cut Juggernaut and Su-Chi for Warmonger, Dwarven Blasminer and Petravark and see how it does.

[Harlequin]

Like I said before, If you were to re-tool it, then It could work. 

By making those changes, the deck really is not shop any more.  Its RG Beats.  Not to say that RG beats is strictly better or worse than the deck I propose.    In taking the deck that dirrection, you loose the welder-y goodness.  which may not be important most of the time ... but it cuts off access to Tinisphere and Duplicant. As well as the rare oppertunity to win the game though Sim<->Sim welding.  Also your adding in more unreliable mana in the form of ESG, thus you need to drop down the curve.

So what you gain and loose by cutting shop and adding green is all on the margins, the question is: do you gain more than you loose?  I'm just not seeing it.

[BreathWeapon]

Like I said before, If you were to re-tool it, then It could work. 

By making those changes, the deck really is not shop any more.  Its RG Beats.  Not to say that RG beats is strictly better or worse than the deck I propose.    In taking the deck that dirrection, you loose the welder-y goodness.  which may not be important most of the time ... but it cuts off access to Tinisphere and Duplicant. As well as the rare oppertunity to win the game though Sim<->Sim welding.  Also your adding in more unreliable mana in the form of ESG, thus you need to drop down the curve.

So what you gain and loose by cutting shop and adding green is all on the margins, the question is: do you gain more than you loose?  I'm just not seeing it.

Reverse the premise, is adding Workshops, a card that doesn't generate mana for the 8 Moons and other non-artifact cards worth it when compared to eight other lands that produce 2 mana for them?

I'm having some disturbing results with that list -4 Juggernaut and -4 Su Chi for + 4 Petravark and + 4 Dwarven Blastminer, removing the assumption that Workshop and Moxes are just better than 2 Mana Lands and Spirit Guides improves the concept over all.

I know it's counter intuitive, but its' true.

[demonic effect]

Considering Shop --> Tomb.
Uneffected: Welder, Null Rod*, Garg.
Better with tomb: ManMoon*, BMoon*, Viashino.
Worse with tomb: Orb*, Tinisphere* Sim*, Razormane, Duplicant, Jar.

Things I *-ed are what are really realvant on turn 1.  Of -all- turn 1 plays Orb (and tinisphere) are the best.
Infact My order of Turn 1 awsomeness:
#1) Trinisphere
 - Stops: OMG everything
 - Ruined by: turn 1 wasteland or shop, double Spirit guide Shattering spree!
 - At its finest: they only have a 2 land hand and I destroy them.

#2) Orb
 - Stops: everything for 1 turn
 - Ruined by: Not having a good turn 2 play.
 - At its finest: They have a heavy fetchland hand and are set back more than one turn.  Also followed by a turn 3 or so moon can be crippling.

#3) Rod
 - Stops: Moxen, Lotus
 - Ruined by: Fish, Brainstorm, not having a good turn 2 play.
 - At its finest:  They have a heavy mox hand, with lots of high CC stuff (thirst/Gifts).

#4) Moon
 - Stops: Land development
 - Ruined by: on-color moxen, lotus, petal, or a basic in hand.
 - At its finest: they have no basics in hand or on-color moxen, and get colorscrewed.

#5) Simulacrum
#6) Welder

I think that this shows a very clear reason why tomb should be included... The top two cards you want to play on turn one consist of only 5 cards with the number one choice being a restricted card and thus should not weigh in too heavily into the decision.  that leaves what orb...  as you said, orb is good as long as you have a solid turn 2 play... However, if you play shop, orb, go... then the number of turn 2 plays are drastically diminished leaving you with the option of either playing null rod, trini, or another orb...  All in all only null rod is consistent enough to count heavily on as being effective (trini is too random to rely on).

If you go... shop, mox, orb... then you have the option of also casting simulacrum which, as has been discussed in this post, is a great card...

To weigh the alternatives, if you play tomb the only card that you can effectively play turn 1 is null rod (not bad since it is one of the top three)  However, the difference is the turn 2 play where you then can play orb, moon (which is 6-7 cards in the deck), trini (still effective at this point if on play and regardless a good card at shutting down a lot of top decks...), heretic etc...  In other words you give up a really strong turn 1 play for a strong 2nd and 3rd turn play (still not ideal but what is?  besides, you won't always have shop or tomb so not really THAT backbreaking).

The place that tomb really shines however is when you have tomb with accelration... This means that the number of effective turn 1 plays is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than with shop... you can't play simulacrum, but can now play moons and have the option of a really strong 2nd and 3rd turn...  Since you have 12 accelerants in the deck this should be a fairly common option (1 in 5 cards should be an accelerant)...  This is also good because it allows you to create a lock faster rather than having to play simulacrum which, although good, is used primarily to get resources to lock the opponent meaning he can be played later with tomb and still serve a similar purpose...

Essentially tomb comes with a few drawbacks but, considering the power of the lock cards, how often they occur, and how they play out... tomb seems to better serve that purpose... I havent tested tombs in a build like this but that's just my gut instinct...

As to this turning into a r/g beatz deck... that should definately not occur...  5c stax often plays few artifacts preferring to splash in more enchantments etc... That's the way I see this deck evolving too the only problem is figuring out how much and of what should be cut...  (razormane will always be tough to play, even with shops, because either orb will limit mana, moons will make shops produce R, etc...  They tend not to come out until a little later int eh game regardless and so they will still serve the same function as will duplicants and titan which often use welders to come into play...

[BreathWeapon]

It isn't R/g Beats, that's the thing, all of the creatures are either acceleration or disruption, Petravark and Dwarven Blastminer are mana denial with Petravark RFGing the basic lands that Blood Moon, Choke and Root Maze misses and Dwarven Blastminer removing the non-basic Mountains that Choke can't keep tapped.

Just because I use bears to win doesn't mean I'm using R/g beats, it's more like Fish with Enchantments for disruption instead of counters and discard. Shuffle up that list and use it against Gifts and watch what happens to them, it's sick to see a 300 dollar deck maul all of the non-Oath and non-Stax decks.

[demonic effect]

It isn't R/g Beats, that's the thing, all of the creatures are either acceleration or disruption, Petravark and Dwarven Blastminer are mana denial with Petravark RFGing the basic lands that Blood Moon, Choke and Root Maze misses and Dwarven Blastminer removing the non-basic Mountains that Choke can't keep tapped.

Just because I use bears to win doesn't mean I'm using R/g beats, it's more like Fish with Enchantments for disruption instead of counters and discard. Shuffle up that list and use it against Gifts and watch what happens to them, it's sick to see a 300 dollar deck maul all of the non-Oath and non-Stax decks.

1.  Choke doesn't seem to fit the deck nearly as well as moon...  The two are not very synergistic *they have a similar effect or attempt to do the same thing* except when a moon is in play there is no need to have choke...  Like other disruption that more effectively harms the opponent is better...  I am not saying that Choke is bad... I jsut feel that you are too concerned with ensuring that they have no useable lands when having only 1 land of the color you need is often just as effective

2.  Dwarven Blastminer:  He is too slow to effect the early game (as in his ability requires that you use a lot of mana preventing you from casting other lock pieces)  In addition, he isn't THAT useful once moon hits either since the non-basics are pretty much useless... The only thing he does is prevent opponents from having a lot of mana on the board (which should almost be all mountains)...  So in effect, he wastes a turn of disruption (summoning sickness) wastes a turn to activate meaning you prevent another static effect all to kill "mountains"... IDK i definately see how he is good but I do not think he is optimal...  Especially as a fragile 1/1

3.  Petravark is just plain bad... 4cc to remove 1 land from the game unless they remove him (he's a 2/2 so its not that difficult)... If you are truly afraid of that 1 basic (which you shouldn't be since most decks require at least 2 colors to operate fully)  Why would you need him THAT much...

In effect I think you miss the basic premise of the deck and go overboard with it...   The idea of a basic monoR deck is to color screw the opponent... While Choke definately helps with that, I find tha the effect isn't nearly as useful on average as moon, requires another color be added to the deck, and is able to be worked around much easier than moon unless moon is already on the table..  Blastminer's effect is also cumbersome to do something that should already be taken care of by other cards... the only hate that is unique is petravark and simply put he's overcosted for the effect which doesn't have a significant enough effect except in the right situations (meaning you should already be winning)...  Stop worrying about how much land they have and worry what color they have...  On average decks only carry a handful of basics meaning that at most they will probably have one in play with little to no way of getting more...  In the time it takes them to develop their plan and execute it (considering that most decks require two colors) you should have already won...

so i guess my critique comes down to several things:
1.  Is the card worth having if moon is not already in play
2.  If moon is already in play, is the card still useful
3.  If moon is in play, is the other card necessary for me to win?

In addition, Blastminer and Petravark that are not static=not nearly as good (especially in Blastiminer's case since he needs mana to activate)... So why not put Uba Mask in or some other card which provides a static effect and helps solve some of the problems that you are facing (such as them searching for more basics) as well as being useful on its own...

In terms of the beatz comment... I would say that your deck isn't like fish at all...  granted the creatures serve a purpose...  But the creatures/abilities in question tend to be overcosted for minimal effect = useful as a creature to attack not as effective disruption...  In contrast, meddling mage (always useful), Grunt (helpful, cheap, and still a clock versus your 1/1's and 2/2's), confidant (always useful), etc...  Granted Fish also use lions but they can afford to b/c of the mana curve and strategy... something that your deck cannot afford to do because you do not have free disruption... This means that you need more static effects so that you do not waste turns on things that simply do not matter so that you can create a hard lock and win small...

If you do find that land destruction is key why not just add in Destructive Urge instead of either blastminer or petravark?

Finally, just because the deck beats gifts doesn't mean that it is viable...  Gifts is already a decent matchup due to the high mana requirements and the number of cards that already disrupt that plan... I would be more worried with other matchups for which you could add in other disruption to make the deck more viable...

[BreathWeapon]

Points 1 and 3 contradict each other, and no one is using Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon when all of the opponent's lands are locked out of the game with Root Maze and Choke, tho' Root Maze and Choke are going to be used after a Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon to target the basic lands that slipped thru' the lock, or Root Maze is going to be used to prevent a fetch land from finding an Island before a Magus of the Moon or Blood Moon can be cast.

Petravark and Dwarven Blastminer are bears first and disruption second, no one is casting in order to disrupt the opponent but rather pressure the opponent and remove lands that slipped thru' the first 16 LD cards. Use Viashino Heretic, Goblin Vanda, Gorilla Shamanl or Warmonger in those slots, as long as the card creates a clock and does something useful it's a serious consideration.

As I said, the worst match ups are Oath and Stax, the rest of the format is a push over to 8 Moons, 4 Rod, 4 Chalice, 4 Choke and 4 Maze.

[WhiteWolf]

Maybe like Harlequin says it isn't a case of replacing or adding Tombs but just about building a different deck. It would look more like red hate than Stax:

Red Hate

Control & Combo Hate - 17

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere

Stax Hate - 4

4 Viashino Heretic

Critter Hate - 12

4 Bloodfire Dwarf *
4 Dead/Gone
4 Warmonger

Mana - 27

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Sideboard

4 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Duplicant
4 Slice and Dice

* This slot is very uncertain. It could be replaced with: Words of War (the aggro/Fish lock!), Shattering Spree, Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Vandal, Flametongue Kavu ... Any suggestions? After FS this will automatically become Magus of the Moon!

I know hate decks always look janky but this thing has something for the 3 big "archetypes" (Combo/control, Stax and Aggro/Fish). Some cards fulfill double or even triple purpose like Warmonger (Fish, EtW, beater). The glaring weakness is slightly bigger non-artifact creatures (toughness higher than 3 but who plays those unless they're Angels or Grunt) and ESPECIALLY Oath. If someone has suggestions against Oath please tell me, preferably proactive ones (so no Goblin Bombardment and stuff). At the moment I've put 4 Duplicants in the sideboard but I'm afraid they're too expensive.

I've goldfished this build a little to compare the plays you can make in the first 3-4 turns when you switch Workshops for Tombs and I really like the results. The chance of casting the red bombs like Blood Moon, Heretic (against Stax), Warmonger (against aggro) and Words of War (if you decide to play those) first or second turn become MUCH higher.

[BreathWeapon]

Using Workshop in a Moon based deck is akin to using Drain in Fish, the card is powerful and it provides mana, but it's cumbersome and there's nothing to use the mana on.

Oath is just a bad match up, the best I could come up with was either Granite Shards for Token removal or Seal of Primordium for Oath removal.

I'd give Green and Choke and Root Maze a chance, those cards are just amazing and the SB options are great (Artifact Mutations just owns Stacks)

[madmanmike25]

Control & Combo Hate - 17

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Blood Moon
1 Trinisphere

Stax Hate - 4

4 Viashino Heretic

I think this is a good start.  Personally I think Magus>Blood Moon any day and would play 4 Magus before the 1st Blood Moon.  The 2 toughness.  Let's be realistic.  The most common thing in Vintage that will happen to EITHER of those 2 cards is what?  Bounce.  Very rarely will someone toss a lightning bolt at your Magus.  At least Magus has the potential to do damage and is great in multiples for more damage.

Critter Hate - 12

4 Warmonger

I think Warmonger is an awesome find.  Against Fish, he can be great card advantage and since these decks run no/little draw, you need all the advantage you can get.  He beats  for 3 and wrecks house against EtW tokens all while pinging the opponent as well.  Great with Pillar and Heretic imo.  Here is a stupid suggestion:  Would he be good combined with Varchild's War-Riders?  War-Riders are also a half-assed answer to Oath....Ok probably not, just thought I would mention him.

The inclusion of Warmonger+Heretics+Magus and/or Blood Moon means that Tomb is going to be more useful than Shop.  That is fine.  I always prefer Welders and Bazaars in my Shop builds anyhow.

If someone has suggestions against Oath please tell me, preferably proactive ones (so no Goblin Bombardment and stuff). At the moment I've put 4 Duplicants in the sideboard but I'm afraid they're too expensive.

If you can find a Red answer to Oath you will become my personal hero.  Damn Akroma and her stupid pro-red armor.  That is why BreathWeapon includes green I imagine(among other reasons).  I honestly feel that 4 ESG and 4 SSG might make a deck have a horrible mid-game unless you are playing combo. What if the 3 mana sources in your hand are 2 SSG's and an ESG?  If you want both, try upping the mana count to 30.

Skullclamp is another option to at least give you some card draw.  Null Rods should be SB'ed out against Oath anyhow.

Concerning Words of War:  I'm pretty sure that multiples are useless, correct?  You cannot activate multiple Words on 1 draw right?

[rkmancer]

Quote from that made mike : 
If you can find a Red answer to Oath you will become my personal hero.  Damn Akroma and her stupid pro-red armor.  That is why BreathWeapon includes green I imagine(among other reasons).  I honestly feel that 4 ESG and 4 SSG might make a deck have a horrible mid-game unless you are playing combo. What if the 3 mana sources in your hand are 2 SSG's and an ESG?  If you want both, try upping the mana count to 30.


I think the main problem for this deck against oath 's not the akroma. .though it's hard. .but lot of number moon n null rod can push the oath of druids itself not comes to play. .if that happens. .u've a lot of time to beat ur opponent. .
This deck was so powerful against oath till one of ur lock be bounced ^^

'bout ESG n SSG in that kind of deck. .i think 3 number for each of them 's enough. .they r really usefull to cast both the moon, artifacts, or root maze. .but let's forget bout it n see my question. ."if it's really vital to hv orb of dreams in the 1st turn, why don't add the root maze which hv that kind ability same as we add the moon man to increase the number of the moon. .??" We can hv a same deck concept with addi'n some forest to be search by solemn, we may hv 1st turn maze or orb. .both make opponent slow. .n for the final lock of course by the moon. .We can hv a green creature to do the swing (maybe jhorael). .the problem just what card maybe replace for those green spells, n find a good proportion for mountain n forest. .