[Deck Discussion] Countersight

[Malhavoc]

Some time ago I happened to play against a Bomberman playing a couple of Couterbalance too. In that game I had to feel the awesome power of such a card combined with Sensei Top; even if against artifact Counterbalance is almost dead, in every other match can be really devastating, and in the control mirror in particular. In the past the card and the combo with Top has already been discussed, but it was mostly discarded for these reasons:

- Top is a nice card, but inferior to the similar brainstorm
- Counterbalance is outstanding over many turns, but it risks to be useless against a single powerful play made by the opponent next turn, making even Counterspll more appealing
- Counterbalance conflicts with Drain during the second turn: keep UU open or drop it?

I partially agree on those points, infact I'm not sure that Bomberban is the right deck for it, despite its ability to tutor with Trinket even a singleton Top.

However, I happened to think about the old Sensei Sensei, a deck that, for those who don't remember it, aims on winning using Future Sight, Top and Elm of Awakening. In particular:

- Future Sight with Top give us the ability "Pay one mana: draw a card"
- With an added Helm we can draw the whole library and win by storm easily
- Two Tops and an Helm give us an infinite storm using Top's second ability

Among the deck's main weaknesses:
- We run a cc5 enchantment, which is only partially helped in its casting by the Drains
- Helm is often too simmetrical, and almost unplayable against Combo


But let's see how Counterbalance fits into this deck:
- It's awesome with Top, a card that we aren't adding just for Counterbalance, but which we would run anyway
- Together with Future Sight makes an interesting combo: it's true that the opponent knows the cc Counterbalane is set to, but at the same time we know it too, and if we see 2 or 5 we know we are protected against drain/force. Plus, if we have an instant on top, Counterbalane is much stronger, since in response to the trigger we can cast the instant and see if we get the right cc under it, and if the next is another instant, we can try again. In this way we give Counterbalance the potential to stop different casting costs at the same time.


But since this deck hasn't been taken in a while, let's see if there are some other interesting cards came out in the meantime.. and among them, surely Dark Confidant seems the most promising:

- It's damn good with Top
- It's an excellent draw engine, which we can drop since first turn, and which does not need mana to make us draw; this in particular is good to free us mana for other spells and for Top activations. The other draw engines would probably require a bit too much mana for a deck not running Drains (I'll get into this later)

To enhance the draw engine the best spell we could choose is of course Thirst of Knowledge:
- Excellent with all the artifacts we run in the deck
- Top (in multiples) and Helm (in certain matches) could not be so good: discarding them while drawing three isn't bad at all
- It lets us "clean" the top of the deck to see more cards with top


Before going into the decklist, I want to explain what could be the most debatable choice: cutting drains. Yes, I said that. Even the old Sensei Sensei used to avoid running a complete set (often choosing just 3 of them), but the deck doesn't contains too many colorless cc, and prefers to try and drop Confidant/Counterbalance on turn 2 rather than staying UU open. Obviously such a choice leads to run 4 Duress maindeck; Misdirection could be another interesting choice in a defensive role, but Duress covers both the defensive and aggressive role at the same time, and it's an excellent turn one play followed by Counterbalance turn 2 (if we even had a mox to cast Top first and keep it active later even better). Compared to counterspell such as Drain/Counterspell/Remand and such, Duress, FoW and maybe even Misdi are really better to protect U-Hungry spells like Counterbalance and Future Sight.


The first list ran 2-3 Cunning Wish as the original version, but without drains they tend to be a bit heavy to cast, and with Grunts so heavily played, Brain Freeze riskss to be not a real finisher too many times. I've then decided to change them with 1 Tendril and 2 maindecked bounce spells.


MANA: 14+9=23
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strands
3 Underground Sea
3 Islands
1 Swamp (I'm not sure: we need U badly, but with all the black spells we have it could make sense)
1 Tolarian Academy

5 Mox
1 Lotus
1 Ring
1 Crypt
1 Petal

COMBO: 9
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Future Sight
2 Helm of Awakening

PROTECTION: 11
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Counterbalance

DRAW: 9
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Dark Confidant
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Frantic Search

TUTOR: 3
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic
1 Vampiric Tutor

OTHER: 5
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth (or Rushing River?)

This is the cc table (really important considering Counterbalance and Confidant):

CC
0 22
1 12
2 12
3 6
4 1
5 7

Average CC: 1,55


The main characteristics have already been explained, in particular you'll se testing it how many good cards become sinergically outstanding once they are both in play; and such mini combo are quite a few, and it's usually hard for the opponent to stop them all (and let's not forget Future Sight which is almost game winning just alone).

The deck is still in testing stage, and there are quite a few things I'd like to improve:

Against AggroControl:
- Null Rod stops Top, and that's not good at all. I'd like to try and fit a Tinker+Colossus for this match, but I'm not sure how to find space maindeck
- The Helms here could be quite nice in order to worsen its mana denial plan, while it usually don't have the cards to really find the Helm useful for its own game.

Against Artifact:
- We have a good amount of dead weight: but Helms help a lot, and even Tops, being permanenents, help against both Tangle and Smokestack. Post side we surely side out Counterbalance in exchange for the old drains.

Combo:
First turns are the most challenging: if we survive, we are then going to winning. Post side some Calice should slow the game enough to make it enough simple.

Control:
Our best matchup. Of course we should be careful about not letting them drain Future Sight, but if we take it with care, and make good use of Counterbalance, the chances are on our side.



Some additional comments on certain cards:

- Brainstorm. I've decided to drop them, but even with Top, they would still be very good, both on their own and in combination with Confidant/Counterbalance. However, there isn't much space.. we could try cutting some Thirst, but that's debatable, and we would risk having too many cc1 spells and too few cc3 spells for counterbalance (cc1 in particular is always covered if we have Top into play which we can put on top anytime)

- Tendrils. It could appear clunky at first sight with its BB in the casting cost and not too much "storming" cards, but:
* If we combo out with Future+Top+Helm we draw the whole deck, and it's IMPOSSIBLE we can't generate BB to win
* If we combo out with Top+Top+Helm we just need 1BB to win (and that's however the most uncommon way to win)
* Confidants could hit the opponent on their own, making the storm easier
* With just a couple of Tops in play we can make already a good storm with just some mana (having Tolaria in play should make it really easy)
* We can just win with a good Yawgmoth Will
* Against aggro, casting a little Tendril to earn time, and then a final one through YWin could be a viable plan
* Against all the Jotun around, Cunning-Freeze could not win on its own
* We now have a cc4 spell to tutor on the fly to counter Gift and other cc4 spells. Even if it could them be a dead draw, we can Top it deeper, and we anyway make Mystical a uncounterable cc U counterspell with it!

- Locket of Yestardays. It's not symmetrical as Helm is, but I've not found is so good: even if we can discard some cards to Thirst, it usually makes cheaper too few spells, making it not so good against artifact decks, and it ends up doing almost nothing against everyone anyway. Plus, the combos with Top in play require an additional Top in the grave.

- Artificer's Intuition. It would have very nice synergies with Top, making it fetchable and letting you shuffle in order to see new cards with Top or with a double Counterbalance in play. Makes you run some good silver bullets too (Tormod, Needle, Explosives). Unfortunately, it's a bit U intensive, and after all we won't need to fetch more than one or two artifact usually, making Trinket mage almost better for just tutoring alone.

- Frantic Search. I'm recently trying this istead of the fourth TfK; even if it doesn't give pure card advantage, it has very good points:
- Let us convert colorless into precious U or even B for Tendril
- Cleans the top of the deck for free to see new cards with Top
- Under Counterbalance+Top let us search for the right cc for free (for example, a Frantic and a Thirst let us look with top at 7-8 cards)
- Academy is very good already in this deck, and Frantic breaks it apart


SIDE (still temporary)

SB:
1 Rebuild
1 Rushing River / Echoing (the other we haven't put maindeck)
3 Mana Drain
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Massacre (a little lack in sinergy with Confidant, but still awesome)
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus (we don't have brainstorm, but TfK and Frantic to discard it, and Top to avoid drawing it or revealing it with Confidant)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

In particular I've got some doubts about the best strategy against aggro and aggrocontrol.. if defending lands with Pithing and trying to combo out or, fearing pithing/rod/meddling on Top, choosing to head for a simpler Tinker for Colossus plan.

[LotusHead]

My original build of Bomberman originally had a singleton Future Sight because it was broken, and with Trinket Mages, I would always see Black Lotus.  Perhaps Trinket Mages could replace say, Thirst for Knowledge?

Lastly, its worth mentioning that with Top and Counterbalance out, you can "always" come up with a 1cc spell on top of deck by activating Top's draw ability.

[Shock Wave]

My changes:

- Frantic Search
- Future Sight

+ Tinker
+ DSC

I've tried a deck like this and you die so badly to Null Rod it isn't even funny. Nulll Rod Fish (the only good version, IMO) will give you the beating of your life, so you need to be able to rely on the big guy, because your main plan is just too disruptible. I don't think you need 3 Future Sight, because you certainly don't want to see it early, and Frantic Search is pretty awful most of the time.

[Wollblad]

My experience of Counterbalance in Vintage is very much in agreement with the first three points in Malhavoc's post. If you have both Counterbalance and Top in play it is decent since you can always counter anything with CC 1. But it doesn't hinder your opponent to play something with CC 1 (forcing you to put Top onto your library) and then cast something broken with another CC than 1. The big drawback is however that a lone Counterbalance is nothing but a card with CC 2 that quite often does nothing. You have no control what so ever on its functionality, you can just hope that your top card happens to have the casting cost of the spell your opponent will cast. And if it hits, your investment in a card has still not given you a card advantage, just a one-for-one trade.

Much of my experince with Counterbalance is however from including Mana Drain in the same deck. This is of course a bad call since you on turn two wants to play both Dark Confidant and Counterbalance and have mana open for Mana Drain. To replace Mana Drain with Duress is probably a very good idea.

Cutting Brainstorm is however not a good idea. A control deck or conmbo deck that cannnot support Brainstorm is in my experience not a good deck. You have way to many spells that you don't want on your starting hand such as Future Sight, Tendrils, multiple Top and so on. Without Brainstorms you will be stuck with those cards in your hand until you can combo out. You will have to think of a way to fit at least three Brainstorms in the deck. Suggestions:
- Frantic Search
- 1 Future Sight
- 1 Top (3 is plenty)
+ 3 Brainstorm

I would furthermore cut one Helmet and perhaps one Counterbalance to fit in Tinker+DSC just as Shock Wave suggests. That will give you one more wincon and Tinker can always fetch the lone Helmet or a Top.

[Tobi]

Cutting Brainstorm is however not a good idea. A control deck or conmbo deck that cannnot support Brainstorm is in my experience not a good deck.

Even more if the deck has an increased synergy with Brainstorm than any other deck (Confidant, Counterbalance).

[Malhavoc]

Yes, I'm generally in line with your replies. Finding space for Tinker+Colossus is necessary; tinker could also fetch lotus to easily cast FS, or Helm as you said, or even Top if it's the missing element for the combo. I also think that some brainstorms would be a very nice addition, but the space is very lacking already.

Two of you have suggested to cut Frantic.. why you think it's not a good inclusion? It's true that for the same cost TfK is usually better, but its ability as a mana fixer can be really incredible.

If we add T+C, going down to two FS should be feasible in terms of "win conditions", but I'm not too sure about cutting the fourth top: it's not useless in multiples (you can put one on top with couterbalance to counter cc1 and still have the other to look for other CCs), it's great to have one out with both Counterbalance and Confidant, and any useless copy can be discarded to TfK.

Regarding TfK, however, I'm not too sure of the right amount: it's clearly a great card here, but I'm unsure of the right amount: three seems fair however (we have to keep in mind that without Drains we have a bit less mana available then we are used to).

Trinket mage could be better than TfK if we are trying to combo out, but, if we are going to take control of the game, I think the card advantage an from TfK is better.

[Harlequin]

I'm not sure how Future Sight and Counterbalance is synergy.  If anything Future Sight makes Counterbalance worse, because your oppoennt is not going to play into it as much. 

It ends up costing you alot more resources to actually counter things with the CB, because your always attempting to fake them out with 2nd card and move it to the top. 

A good player with future Sight out, will just keep building a hand and then when they are ready to win they will dry you out responding to top activations.   

You might want to take a look at Thrumming stone in place of future sight.  It has its own give and take, but It combo's in a similar fassion to Future sight.  You really have to know your stack rules, because it can get dicey... but the general idea is that when you have thrumbing stone in play you have :draw a card for each top you have in play.  A bit better than future sight + top.  It also helps you find other copies of top, which yeilds even more draw.  With a helm, 2 tops and thruming stone, you can draw your deck.

Its a different deck, but it might be worth exploring.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I've played the old deck a lot.  Maybe more than anyone, and there's definitely a few issues here that don't mix.

First, you're trying to mix two strategies that really don't have a lot of synergy: Top.dec wanted to disrupt non-drain opponents long enough and use Wish to remove problems so that it could combo off.  It played pretty similar to something like Dragon, actually.  If it happened across Gifts or Slaver, etc, it had, by far, the most robust draw engine in the format so that it could play the long game.  It mainly got into trouble against workshop, since it didn't have the spots to dedicate to mana, and it's sorcery-speed effects cost it games that eot Gifts/bounce/Thirst would win.

On the other hand, CB.dec wants to lay disruption until it can build a soft lock with top and then find a win condition (now it seems to be critter beats).  The strategy is almost purely control and resource advantage.  Almost like Fish in the early game, and then instead of beating for the win in the midgame, or playing something like Erayo, it plays CB.

The reason why these strategies may conflict is that you have to decide in the midgame, after laying a disruptive strategy, whether you want to invest the rest of your resources in the lock, or the combo.  It's true that some of the pieces have synergies that run both ways, but others don't.  Also, deck construction plays a key role in pushing you one way or the other.

I would opine that your list picks the wrong route, by focusing more on the combo than the lock.

I'd look at something like this:

4   Polluted Delta
2   Flooded Strands
3   Underground Sea
3   Islands
1   Swamp
2   Volcanic Island
1   Tolarian Academy
3   Mox Jet, Ruby, Sapph
1   Sol Ring
1   Lotus
1   Petal

3   Sensei's Divining Top
2   Future Sight
1   Helm of Awakening
   
4   Force of Will
3   Duress
2   Cabal Therapy
1   Cunning Wish
1   Echoing Truth
1   Pithing Needle
1   Tormod's Crypt
   
3   Brainstorm
2   Counterbalance
   
4   Dark Confidant
2   Trinket Mage
1   Gorilla Shaman
   
1   Burning Wish
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Time Walk
1   Yawgmoth's Will

The sideboard would look similar to T1T.

A good player with future Sight out, will just keep building a hand and then when they are ready to win they will dry you out responding to top activations

I think you severely underestimate what happens when you try to 'wait out' a Future Sight.

[zeus-online]

If you untap with future sight in play you should just win!....Getting there is the problem

Future sight has an extremely powerfull effect, but it's hard to get it out there thanks to WorstManaCostEver.tm...It's kinda like a Neo Mind over matter.

...And it's even more horribly broken with a top in play.

On the deck: Mostly looks like a Sensei, Sensei build, just with counterbalance...Could be good! Always wanted to play with future sight

/Zeus

[LotusHead]

I'm not sure how Future Sight and Counterbalance is synergy.  If anything Future Sight makes Counterbalance worse, because your oppoennt is not going to play into it as much. 

This is what "control" is.

It's like a lock peice

You wont play Duress through Chalice for 1 if it's completely obvious that Duress will get countered by Chalice for 1.

This means, 1cc cards are 1cc peices of crap in hand.

[Malhavoc]

I'm not sure how Future Sight and Counterbalance is synergy.  If anything Future Sight makes Counterbalance worse, because your oppoennt is not going to play into it as much. 

This is what "control" is.

It's like a lock peice

You wont play Duress through Chalice for 1 if it's completely obvious that Duress will get countered by Chalice for 1.

This means, 1cc cards are 1cc peices of crap in hand.

Under counterbalance, an opponent could just fear to throw his bomb, even if protected, just not knowing the cc counterbalance is set to (unless he throws another spell before it, just to check it). Regarding this, it's true that you lose something letting him know what's on top; but knowing that can help you too: you know if you can cast your own bomb well protected (by a 2cc or a 5cc card on top) and it let you look for other CCs even without Top just casting the spell on top of the deck.

However, in such a scenario you usually just need to resist only until next untap, then you should win on the spot or at worst gain a awesome advantage.

Regarding the list, I think that you're right saying that Tinker+Colossus is necessary, and I would devote an handful of slots to some brainstorms too.

Something like:

-1 Future Sight
-1 Helm (only one left, but with Tinker it's in the potentially still 2)
-1 Top
-1 Frantic/TfK (I'd like to test Frantic another bit before cutting it)

+1 Tinker
+1 D. Colossus
+2 Brainstorm



Regarding the list posted by Grand Inquisitor, I find it a nice idea, but as he has written it's a more control - less combo version. Different and with different matchups, not necessary better or worst, however I'd try to add Tinker+Colossus in there too, as it's probably even much more needed than in the combo version, due to chosen game plan.

Regarding the fact that the deck needs to choose each game which path to walk (combo or control): that's true, but it's true in many decks as well, Gifts just to say the first which comes to my mind. Flexibility is not bad on its own at all, however it's true that the choices in deckbuilding can make a path more powerful in exchange with a weakening in the other; but such choices are mainly tied with play style and expected metagame.

[MaxxMatt]

This is an additional skeleton for such a deck.
I tried it online with really good results.

4 BS, TFK, FoW, Duress
3 Sensei, Counterbalance
2 FS, Gifts, M.Scroll
X Restricted ( Regrowth among them, Black tutors and P9 )
3-4 Artifacts to feed TFKs and blue instant tutors singletons
24 Mana
1x of Finishers: Bfreeze, C.Wish, ToA

You have a more 'blue based' deck, you are Extirpate Proof thanks to Duresses' effect, you have a cool way to pull out your combo *all at once* via Gifts while all the other commonly used methods to control the game can be applied without any risk.
Critters used here ( D.Confidants and Trinkets ) are really good but applying this skeleton, you can afford to play a slightly different deck with almost the same porpouses. OldStyle combo-Gifts' approach, is the one that I'm suggesting here. It isn't totally lost in the past and can offer good wins again and again

Green here is really more foresighting than Red, because of Regrowth and maybe because of a couple of possible sideboard options ( Naturalize, Oxidize, Seedtime, TrasnforamationalSideboardOat h, SplitSecondDisenchant, GroundSeal and so on.

What do you think about it?
Props to Malhavoc for his cool way to reanimate F.S.dec back from the past!

Maxx


ADDENDUM.
I toyed a bit with my last list adding other cards and modifying it a bit.

(15)
4 Force of Will
4 Repeal
3 Duress
3 Counterbalance
1 Echoing Truth

(12)
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Sensei Diving Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

(4)
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

(5)
2 Future Sight
1 ban Yawgmoth's Will
1 Brainfreeze
1 Cunning Wish

(24)
9 Artifact Mana
6 Fetchland
4 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 LoA

Sideboard isn't in progress but I think it can be used with the T1T's style.

[Malhavoc]

Hi Maxx!

I think that without drains a complete set of TfK and two Gifts can be a bit too mana intensive. You are suggesting what seems a Gift deck with Future Sight / Top combo and Counterbalance instead of Drains. Even if the first two COULD do well to some degree in Gifts, even if changing the plans a bit, I think that Drains are too much needed in Gift to live without.

Another interesting thing I've noticed playing the deck is that it can combo out without any need for the graveyard, something that a Gift-like list can't, particularly without Rebuild or Chain of Vapor.

Instead, I've absolutely come to love Cofidant here. It is a chep draw engine, it makes Tendrils win so easier against creatureless decks. Sometimes you just win with them blocking the opponent with couterbalance. With Top, you can keep them one or two in play without losing almost any life (you can always opt to put Top on top if you are so unlucky to have just hight cc cards).

Also dropping to just one Helmet seems fair, as we have Tinker to take it if needed (so that now even mystical can tutor it quite quickly). Tinkering Helm of even Top can seem strange sometimes, but when it means you are winning that same turn.. why looking for a fat slow colossus?

I also have to admit that with some more testing, Frantic does not seem so wondeful. Yes, it fixes mana sometimes, and sometimes untaps Tolaria, or just discards useless junk and make you see many more cards, but when many are the times where you would prefer a TfK. Overall, I'm not too sure about the right amount of Top/TfK/Brainstorm. I would try to fit 3 of each, but I wonder if Top shouldn't be in 4 copies instead, due to its great synergy with Future Sight, Counterbalance and Confindant. After all we can discard unneeded copies to TfK, or even just cast and activate it to "cycle" it: then we can fetch or cast a tutor to shuffle it away; we can even activate it's "tap" ability in response to the "look" ability to draw a card and put it three cards from top.

[Purple Hat]

maxx don't you need a helm to generate big storm numbers for brainfreeze?  I don't think gifts and tfk at 3U and 2U respectively are too mana intensive at all given that one of your key cards costs 2UUU.