Sylvan Library and Dredge

[Kieranwolf]

I read the ruling on Sylvan Library and Dredge at SCG's Ask the Judge database, but it was a little unclear.

My question is thus: If I dredge instead of drawing for the turn, then choose to use Sylvan Library's ability and dredge again twice (effectively drawing zero cards), do I have to pay life at all?

Sylvan Library's wording suggests that you can only choose cards that you drew on the current turn. If you never drew a card, but replaced all of your draws by dredging, then there's effectively nothing to choose.

If Library gives you free dredges (provided you dredged on your draw for the turn as well), then I'm inclined to believe that Sylvan Library + Pursuit of Knowledge + one draw step = 7 cards drawn during main phase. Is this true?

[Roxas]

Sylvan Library
Color= Green    Type= Enchantment    Cost= 1G    LG(U1)/4(R)/5(R)
Text (5th+errata): At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library. [Oracle 2000/02/01]

My question is thus: If I dredge instead of drawing for the turn, then choose to use Sylvan Library's ability and dredge again twice (effectively drawing zero cards), do I have to pay life at all?

Sylvan Library's wording suggests that you can only choose cards that you drew on the current turn. If you never drew a card, but replaced all of your draws by dredging, then there's effectively nothing to choose.

This is correct. As bolded above, Sylvan Library says "if you do;" since you didn't draw cards, that entire last part of the text does not happen at all.

If Library gives you free dredges (provided you dredged on your draw for the turn as well), then I'm inclined to believe that Sylvan Library + Pursuit of Knowledge + one draw step = 7 cards drawn during main phase. Is this true?

Pursuit of Knowledge
Color= White    Type= Enchantment    Cost= 3W    SH(R)
Text (SH+errata): If you would draw a card, you may put a study counter on ~this~ instead. ; Remove three study counters from ~this~, Sacrifice ~this~: Draw seven cards. [Oracle 1999/05/01]

Yes.

[The Atog Lord]

Sylvan Library and Abundance has seen play as a contsructed combo in the past. The key is that if you only replace a single draw, then you will still have drawn two cards and will be forced to put the two back or pay life. The "trick" with Sylvan Library only works if all draws are replaced.

[Kieranwolf]

The judge ruling actually prompted my question because the wording was a bit sloppy. It is interesting how the wording on the card is, though. It isn't just a Mirri's Guile with "Pay 4 life: draw a card. You may use this ability only during your draw step and only twice each turn." slapped on. The combo could be useful in future decks, though I think for now it's mostly just a bad card drawing spell that Ichorid with a green splash would never think of using. Or a really good 'green fishy' card.

Anyway, I appreciate the responses. =)

[Clariax]

This is correct. As bolded above, Sylvan Library says "if you do;" since you didn't draw cards, that entire last part of the text does not happen at all.

Not exactly.  The "if you do" refers to the choice of "may draw 2 cards."  Either you chose "draw 2 cards" or you chose "not draw 2 cards."  Whether the draws are replaced or not doesn't affect which of those choices you made, which is what the "if you do" is looking at.

What matters is the "choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn."  If there are not 2 cards in your hand that were drawn this turn, then this action is impossible, and if there aren't any chosen cards, then the "for each chosen card" action cannot be carried out.

Also, if the player can in some way get cards drawn before the library trigger resolves out of their hand, then those cards won't be available to choose.  It doesn't matter how many cards you've drawn that turn as it does how many cards that you've drawn are still in your hand.


On a seperate but linked issue, which most Sylvan Library discussions generally end up devolving to, the player does need to keep the cards already drawn that turn seperate and identifiable due to the Sylvan Library trigger.  No, there's no perfect way to do this without losing some kind of potential strategic advantage.  It's not perfect, but since calling a third party (i.e. judge) to track which cards have been drawn this turn is not a realisiticcally feasible possibliity, imperfect solutions must be used.  It's simply how it is, so please don't steer this discussion in that direction.

[Guli]

Ok so from what i understand

On your draw step, you either active the library or not. But you will first draw your normal card.

You can replace your normal draw if you wish.

So after you draw your normal card AND you active the library wich is 'draw 2 cards'

If you dredge you can seperate the 2 draws. My question is this:

If you are able to dredge only 1 time and you can not replace both cards drawn from sylvan you will end up with 2 cards drawn during your draw step that turn. Will sylvan force you to either put them back or pay 4 life for each you keep?

I am working on a deck with Oath of Ghouls. And i use Sylvan library as a draw engine. With Child of Korlis and Oath i can easily keep filling up my hand. Now i am also expermimenting with cycling, echo, sacrifice a creature abilities, dredge, ... Right now i am testing Shambling Shell wich has Dredge AND a sacrifice ability. Dredge works nice with oath of ghouls and I would like to know all the tricks dredge has with sylvan library

[The Chosen One]

I am working on a deck with Oath of Ghouls. And i use Sylvan library as a draw engine. With Child of Korlis and Oath i can easily keep filling up my hand.

how does that work? Korlis doesnt give you back life you have paid.

[Harlequin]

An entire post about exactly what I said not to post about just 3 posts up.  That's why this is now blank.

-- Clariax

[Guli]

I am working on a deck with Oath of Ghouls. And i use Sylvan library as a draw engine. With Child of Korlis and Oath i can easily keep filling up my hand.

how does that work? Korlis doesnt give you back life you have paid.

Korlis doesn't prevent anything. Korlis can be sacced independently giving back the life you have lost in the turn you lost the life.

[Clariax]

If you are able to dredge only 1 time and you can not replace both cards drawn from sylvan you will end up with 2 cards drawn during your draw step that turn. Will sylvan force you to either put them back or pay 4 life for each you keep?

Yes, you'll have to put those 2 cards back or pay 4 for each you keep.  Sylvan Library doesn't care how the cards were drawn, just that they were drawn this turn.  If you have at least 2 cards in your hand that were drawn this turn, then you must choose 2 cards and pay 4 life/put back those cards.

[jro]

Also, if the player can in some way get cards drawn before the library trigger resolves out of their hand, then those cards won't be available to choose.  It doesn't matter how many cards you've drawn that turn as it does how many cards that you've drawn are still in your hand.

This seems like it would only apply if, say, you draw an instant for your special action, cast it, and then replace the 2 draws given to you from using Sylvan.  You couldn't, say, draw instants off Sylvan and then cast them to avoid replacing the cards, since there's no time when you'd have priority while the Sylvan ability resolves, right?

[Clariax]

This seems like it would only apply if, say, you draw an instant for your special action, cast it, and then replace the 2 draws given to you from using Sylvan.  You couldn't, say, draw instants off Sylvan and then cast them to avoid replacing the cards, since there's no time when you'd have priority while the Sylvan ability resolves, right?

Correct

[Guli]

Also, if the player can in some way get cards drawn before the library trigger resolves out of their hand, then those cards won't be available to choose.  It doesn't matter how many cards you've drawn that turn as it does how many cards that you've drawn are still in your hand.

This seems like it would only apply if, say, you draw an instant for your special action, cast it, and then replace the 2 draws given to you from using Sylvan.  You couldn't, say, draw instants off Sylvan and then cast them to avoid replacing the cards, since there's no time when you'd have priority while the Sylvan ability resolves, right?

You could however do something with your normal draw that has a 'put card into hand' effect. There are some draw spells and some tutors like that. If you don't have anything left to put back for sylvan you don't pay life