Worldgorger Combo. Some issues.

[Christian_Ambolt]

Hey

I have been out of the loop regarding to type 1 for a while, and now I see that people use Eternal Witness and Ancestral Recall as wincondition in dragondecks instead of the ambassador.

Could someone please explain in detail how it works from start of going of untill the opponent is dead, because he can't draw anymore cards?

I almost understand how it works, but my mainissue is what happens, when you start putting the animated witness in and out of play. Does the animate-spell stick on to the witness, or will it have to pick a new target (meaning a second dragon from the grave)...or what?

Thanks.

[President Skroob]

First, let us begin the combo.

Animate Dead targeting Worldgorger Dragon

Of course, this begins the infinite loop. Now you need a milling effect, such as Read the Runes or Compulsion which will dump your library with your infinite mana, or which Bazaar will dump your library with infinite taps.

Once everything is in the graveyard, when Animate Dead comes into play you target the Eternal Witness which is in the graveyard. Eternal Witness is reanimated and the loop ends. You bring one card from your graveyard back to your hand. That card is an Animate Dead.

Cast Animate Dead and target a Worldgorger Dragon.

The loop will begin again, but with TWO Animate Deads (One is already in play on the Eternal Witness you just animated, and when it is removed by the Worldgorger the Witness will just go back to the graveyard, ready to be animated again) you can Animate the Eternal Witness with the first and get a card back from your graveyard before you target the Worldgorger Dragon with the second Animate to clear the permanents from the board again. In this fashion, you can bring your entire graveyard to your hand. Since you can also play instants as the combo runs, you are free to recur Ancestral Recall with every loop of the combo and draw out your opponent for the kill.

You can also use other options for the kill. Basically, anything that can be offensive when cast many times will work. Ebony Charm is the one I'm most familiar with. When recurred twenty times you will gain twenty life and they will take twenty damage, all without them drawing any cards. Cards they draw through the Ancestral loop can, if I'm not mistaken, be used to break your combo, such as if you draw them into a Chain of Vapor.

[UR]

1. Animate the Dragon and start your standard loop.
2. Use Bazaar until the Eternal Witness is in the graveyard.
3. Add at least three mana to your mana-pool.
4. Stop the loop by animating the Eternal Witness instead of the Dragon.
5. Witness comes into play and use it's ability to get Necromancy.
6. Start the Dragonloop again with the Necromancy.
7. The Witness will now come back as an independant creature (as it forgets that it is dead once it is removed from game).
8. Continue the Dragonloop until you have the desired amount of mana in your pool and the desired cards in your hand (the witness brings back a card every time it comes back).
9. Cast Ancestral Recall on your opponent.
10. Bring it back with the Witness.
11. Cast Ancestral Recall on your opponent.
12. Bring it Back with the Witness

<snip>

242. Cast Ancestal on your opponent who can no longer draw anything and thus loses the game.

You may want to play Abeyance or Orim's Chant somewhere in there so he can't hit you with some nasty cards. Once I wasn't able to find my Witness until I had only two cards in my Library (so both my Opponent's Ancestral and a Misdirection would kill me). But usually four recurring Force of Wills and some recurring Duress are enough (I think you have to have Squees for that).

Hope this is clear enough.

Edit: What he said ^^

[Christian_Ambolt]

The loop will begin again, but with TWO Animate Deads (One is already in play on the Eternal Witness you just animated, and when it is removed by the Worldgorger the Witness will just go back to the graveyard, ready to be animated again) you can Animate the Eternal Witness with the first and get a card back from your graveyard before you target the Worldgorger Dragon with the second Animate to clear the permanents from the board again. In this fashion, you can bring your entire graveyard to your hand. Since you can also play instants as the combo runs, you are free to recur Ancestral Recall with every loop of the combo and draw out your opponent for the kill.

But why dosen't the Eternal Witness go out of game along with my other permanents? Is it because I choose the order the permanents are removed from game, and if I choose the animate first, then the Witness goes to the graveyard instead?

[President Skroob]

In retrospective, I think my explanation is flawed there.

I'd imagine UR is correct on the mechanic that they are all RFG when coming back from RFG Eternal Witness is no longer dead and will just keep on popping back in. The result will be similar, you can still pull your graveyard to your hand, but mechanically it's different than what I said.

That does mean, however, that if you do want to break the loop for any reason (though I can't imagine why) you will need two legal targets for the Animates other than Worldgorger Dragons since the Eternal Witness is on the board now and no longer a legal target.

My mistake on the mess up, and my apologies.

[dicemanx]

Just as a side note, the fact that animated creatures returning during the WGD loop don't have memory of being dead is important in being able to draw games in case of emergency when your opponents have creatures in the graveyard. For instance, if you're facing off against Ichorid and they have Root Maze in play, you can draw the game with 2 animate dead and 4 mana in play. You can create an unbounded loop by casting an animate on their creature, and then another one on WGD. The result of this play is that you'll return all of your opponents creatures to him, but you'll fish everything out of his graveyard (and yours too) in the process so that the second animate can keep on animating the WGD in that unbounded loop.

Curiously, you might also encounter situations on occasion where the WGD loop can also be exploited to make a Necromancy forget that it was cast at instant speed. For example, when I faced ray Robillard at a SCGP9 event, I had a WGD in my graveyard, with a Lotus and 2 Moxes in play (all of my mana was Stripped/Wasted, including a Bazaar, and I had no way to actually win with an animate spell yet). I FoWed a Gorilla Shaman earlier, and when Ray played some number of artifacts, I used the Lotus to Necromancy my WGD first to generate tons of colorless mana, and then switch to the Shaman so that I could kill all of his artifacts except for an Ingot he had in play. The Necromancy+Shaman stayed in play because the Necromancy was looped through the WGD, which allowed me to draw the game some turns later with another animate after encountering further pressure.

[GrandpaBelcher]

According to the Official Rulings on WGD, "8/1/2005 If an Aura [like Animate Dead] is removed this way, you can place it on any legal permanent when it returns.  It doesn't have to go back to the same place.  It can't be placed on a permanent that is coming into play at the same time."  Witness and Animate get removed at the same time.  So the Animate Dead falls off the Eternal Witness and comes back as an Enchantment, just like the one that will be used on WGD.  Eternal Witness just comes back as a creature with no enchantments.  You can Animate two things, then, right?  One of which will be the WGD that's doing the comboing?  That other thing will stay in play as well, yes? Like the Witness from the previous iteration.

Man, this is confusing.  I know the basics well enough to know that it works and how to stop it, but going into the minutiae is awful.  I'll need to build a stack sometime when I'm not at work.

So when the Witness is R'dFG, it comes back  fully alive, without the enchantment attached, right?  Between that and WGD, could you stack triggers in such a way to really mess up the game?  Like if you Animated all of your Dragons, could you make it so you had four Dragons in play and all your permanents plus a handful of counters and a Time Walk?  That would be amazing.

[dicemanx]

So when the Witness is R'dFG, it comes back  fully alive, without the enchantment attached, right?  Between that and WGD, could you stack triggers in such a way to really mess up the game?  Like if you Animated all of your Dragons, could you make it so you had four Dragons in play and all your permanents plus a handful of counters and a Time Walk?  That would be amazing.

If you want confusion (or you're looking for a challenge), try working out what happens when you have either 3 or 4 Worldgorger Dragons in the graveyard and cast Living Death .

[Christian_Ambolt]

I'm even more confused now, than when I started this post.  :shock:

So if the witness is not attached to the animate anymore, then I get 2 animate-spells into play whitch needs a target. One is easy, that is for the dragon. But what about the other?....this is exactly when i loose track of things.
I guess it has to to take a nother worldgorger dragon?, and next time another one?....so you start having multiple dragons going in and out of the game, along with the one you keep animating?......a stack like that must be impossible to keep track with.....

Can someone help clarify this?

[GrandpaBelcher]

You do have multiple Animates to work with, which is what Dicemanx is saying here:

Just as a side note, the fact that animated creatures returning during the WGD loop don't have memory of being dead is important in being able to draw games in case of emergency when your opponents have creatures in the graveyard. For instance, if you're facing off against Ichorid and they have Root Maze in play, you can draw the game with 2 animate dead and 4 mana in play.

You can bring back however many creatures are in both graveyards with that, as long as you're keeping the loop going with one Dragon.

Really, the important part is this:  you can stack the triggers so the first one that resolves animates the Dragon, then you don't have to worry about the other one because other stuff gets piled up on top of it (namely Dragon triggers, but also Witnesses and whatever you're doing with mana).  When you get back to it (i.e. after the combo is done and your stack is emptied) those triggers are countered because there's no enchantment left to have any effect.  Also, you've probably won the game.

@Dicemanx
Is the four Dragon thing possible?

If you want confusion (or you're looking for a challenge), try working out what happens when you have either 3 or 4 Worldgorger Dragons in the graveyard and cast Living Death.

NO!

[dicemanx]

I'm even more confused now, than when I started this post.  :shock:

So if the witness is not attached to the animate anymore, then I get 2 animate-spells into play whitch needs a target. One is easy, that is for the dragon. But what about the other?....this is exactly when i loose track of things.
I guess it has to to take a nother worldgorger dragon?, and next time another one?....so you start having multiple dragons going in and out of the game, along with the one you keep animating?......a stack like that must be impossible to keep track with.....

Can someone help clarify this?

Animate spells don't need a target (when cast, or when returning into play during a WGD loop) - they simply trigger when they enter play, and if there's at least one creature in any graveyard, they will target that creature. If there aren't any creatures in any graveyards, then nothing will happen - the Animate spell will remain in play as a global enchantment, doing nothing.

So when two animates return along with the Witness, both animates trigger and are put on the stack (both targeting the same creature). When the first trigger resolves, that animate will end up enchanting the WGD from the graveyard. Then the next animate trigger will resolve but the creature it targeted is gone; therefore, that other animate will have no target and won't bring back anything.

@Dicemanx
Is the four Dragon thing possible?

If you want confusion (or you're looking for a challenge), try working out what happens when you have either 3 or 4 Worldgorger Dragons in the graveyard and cast Living Death.

NO!

I don't blame you . Let's just hope it never comes up. Apparently, what happens with 3 WGDs is entirely different than what happens with 4.

[GrandpaBelcher]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3240

That's what happens with three Dragons if they all get animated together by Living Death or, as in the article, Balthor the Defiled.  The end result is that all your previous permanents are in play but no Dragons.

And people say Gifts is hard to understand...

[zeus-online]

If you want confusion (or you're looking for a challenge), try working out what happens when you have either 3 or 4 Worldgorger Dragons in the graveyard and cast Living Death .

Hrm lets see....
3 dragons enter play, all their comes into play abilities trigger....

so the stack looks like:
Comes into play 1
Comes into play 2
Comes into play 3

Due to first in last out, comes into play 3 triggers first, removing the other two dragons, so the stack looks like
Comes into play 1
Comes into play 2
Leaves play 1
Leaves play 2
so the first two abilities resolves and does nothing (nothing was removed, cause the abilities are still on the stack)

So now comes into play 2 resolves, which removes the dragon which is still in play, triggering leaves play 3, which will return the other 2 dragons
Leaving the stack with:
Comes into play 1
Comes into play 1 (1)
Comes into play 2

The first ability will remove the other dragon
Leaving the stack like this:
Comes into play 1
Comes into play 1 (1)
Leaves play 2


okay, my mind is shot...anyone else want to continue?  :lol:

/Zeus

[dicemanx]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3240

That's what happens with three Dragons if they all get animated together by Living Death or, as in the article, Balthor the Defiled.  The end result is that all your previous permanents are in play but no Dragons.

And people say Gifts is hard to understand...

The result should be different if 4 WGDs are brought back. Now there's a challenge for those that have understood what happens with 3 from the link .

[zeus-online]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3240

That's what happens with three Dragons if they all get animated together by Living Death or, as in the article, Balthor the Defiled.  The end result is that all your previous permanents are in play but no Dragons.

And people say Gifts is hard to understand...

The result should be different if 4 WGDs are brought back. Now there's a challenge for those that have understood what happens with 3 from the link .

Still proud that i got that far without help! 

But i'm not gonna bother with decrypting everything in that link though....hrm just a thought...maybe i should make a living death/dragon deck, just to mess with casual players  :lol:

/Zeus

[Christian_Ambolt]

Animate spells don't need a target (when cast, or when returning into play during a WGD loop) - they simply trigger when they enter play, and if there's at least one creature in any graveyard, they will target that creature. If there aren't any creatures in any graveyards, then nothing will happen - the Animate spell will remain in play as a global enchantment, doing nothing.

So when two animates return along with the Witness, both animates trigger and are put on the stack (both targeting the same creature). When the first trigger resolves, that animate will end up enchanting the WGD from the graveyard. Then the next animate trigger will resolve but the creature it targeted is gone; therefore, that other animate will have no target and won't bring back anything.

So this means that even though there are several other targets in the graveyards, I can choose to have the 2 animate-spells target the same Worldgorger Dragon, and thereby having the second one fizzle, cause it's target is gone when it resolves?

If this is the case I think I finally got it under control.

[Pathian]

This part of the discussion is probably going to get moved to the rules forum, but I think I've got the solution to the 4WGD problem. It took about 15 steps (thats just the relevant steps, some of the inconsequential resolutions were compressed into 1 step) on 4 handwritten pages. I'll retype the solution here later in the day if people are interested (finals week, low on free time, blah).

EDIT: Here's the solution:
AOP is all other permanents
1.)
Stack:
t
cip4a
cip3a
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD1-4, AOP

2.) Resolve cip4a, lp3a, lp2a, lp1a trigger
Stack:
t
lp1a
lp2a
lp3a
cip3a
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play: WGD4

RFG by cip4a:
WGD1-3
AOP

3.) Resolve lp1a, lp2a, lp3a, cip3a. lp4a triggers
Stack:
t
lp4a
cip2a
cip1a
b

RFG by cip4a:
WGD1-3
AOP

In Play: none

RFG by cip3a:
WGD4 (lp3a has already resolved, so this is gone forever)

4.) Resolve lp4a. triggers cip1b, cip2b, cip3b
Stack:
t
cip1b
cip2b
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD1-3
AOP

Gone:
WGD4

5. Resolve cip1b, triggers lp2b, lp3b
Stack:
t
lp2b
lp3b
cip2b
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD1

RFG by cip1b:
WGD2-3
AOP

Gone: WGD4

6.) Resolve lp2b, lp3b, cip2b, lp1b triggers
Stack:
t
lp1b
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
none

RFG by cip1b:
WGD2-3
AOP

Gone:
WGD4
WGD1 (removed by cip2b where lp1b has already resolved)

7.) Resolve lp1b, triggers cip2c, cip3c
Stack:
t
cip2c
cip3c
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD2-3
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD4

8.) Resolve cip2c, triggers lp3c
stack:
t
lp3c
cip3c
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD2

RFG by cip2c:
WGD3
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD4

9.) Resolve lp3c, cip3c, triggers lp2c
stack:
t
lp2c
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
none

RFG by cip2c:
WGD3
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD4
WGD2 (rfged by cip3c right after lp3c resolved)

10.) resolve lp2c, triggers cip3d
Stack:
t
cip3d
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In play:
WGD3
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD2
WGD4

11.) resolve cip3d
stack:
t
cip3b
cip2a
cip1a
b

In Play:
WGD3

RFG by cip3d:
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD2
WGD4

12.) Resolve cip3b, triggers lp3d
stack:
lp3d
cip2a
cip1a
b

In play:
none

RFG by cip3d:
AOP

Gone:
WGD1
WGD2
WGD3 (rfg by cip3b, finally it gets simple)
WGD4

13.) Resolve lp3d
stack:
t
cip2a
cip1a
b

In play:
AOP

Gone:
WGD1-4

14.) resolve cip2a
Stack:
t
cip1a
b

In play: none

Gone:
WGD1-4
AOP (rfged by cip2a)

15.) resolve cip1a
stack:
empty

In play:
none

Gone:
WGD1-4
AOP
(nothing happened)

End result: all 4 WGD and all of your permanents are RFG forever

[AmbivalentDuck]

Summary:

1 WGD
-RFG all other permanents, WGD in play

2 WGD
-1 WGD RFG'd along with other permanents, 1 WGD in play

3 WGD
-3 WGD RFG'd, all other permanents in play

4 WGD
-RFG all dragons and all permanents

Yes/no/maybe?

[Twaun007]

I just got done reading this thread and my brain just melted.

[wuaffiliate]

Same here, i think my face was melted.

[Implacable]

Pathian, you are a genius.  And also very frightening.

[UR]

So this means that even though there are several other targets in the graveyards, I can choose to have the 2 animate-spells target the same Worldgorger Dragon, and thereby having the second one fizzle, cause it's target is gone when it resolves?

Yes, the ability on the second one fizzles (it will stay in play as an enchantment that does nothing).

Remember that if there are other creatures in any graveyard the game isn't a draw yet if that is what you are going for (a situation that comes up regularly). It isn't a mandatory loop yet because you are able to make a choice other than the WGD and so you'll have to use the trick that Diceman wrote above.

Don't feel bad for not knowing this sort of stuff right away... this deck is a rules nightmare because it involves knowing the stack quite intimately and I've seen enough judges screw this deck and it's obscure rules up by simply not knowing certain interactions on cards that don't see play very often.

@ Diceman;
I didn't do any CIP-trigger madness on this one, but does the game end in a draw with three Dragons? I once read a tourney report here by somebody who wanted to get in last place at Waterbury and his combo was pretty similar with three creatures removing eachother from game thereby creating an infinity loop that couldn't be stopped. I suppose that could well happen here but I don't really feel like doing that right now. Maybe tonight.

[Purple Hat]

the faceless butcher interaction requires all the abilities to resolve seperately I believe.

creature a is in play,
creature b comes into play removing creature a,
creature c comes into play removing creature b
creature a returns to play removing creature c
creature b returns to play removing creature a
etc....


basically every time the stack clears a trigger is immeadiately placed on it, but there is no time where a trigger is sitting on the stack waiting to resolve while other triggers are resolving.

I guess you could do this with 3 hardcast dragons, but you'd have to build up your mana between each, so it's a lot harder.  faceless butcher only removes target creature. 

[A-FLo]

You can use Lightning Bolt instead of ancestral recall.....put some red mana sources....discard lightning bolt..make sure that you have eternal witness in your graveyard...and another animate dead or any other reanimation spell.....start the loop by animating dragon....target eternal witness instead of dragon....cast another reanimation spell....and then enchant the dragon.....cast lightning bolt.....and then bring it back with eternal W. and start the loop again....it's much more easy than ancestral recall......using lightning bolt you can do it for like 7 times.

Dredging up a 3 month old topic on a rules forum to impart strategy advice seems like a poor decision.

--Clariax