A New Look at Sligh

[EKM_Ichorid]

I got bored with Manaless Ichorid, so I've been playing with Sligh alot. I've been doing alot of thinking and came to one conclusion: Sligh is a perfectly viable deck at this time.

It has mana denial through Waste/Strip/Mox Monkey. It has combo control through Pyroblast/Pillar. It has aggro control through Burn/Tangle Wire. It is quick enough to have to many threats for control.

What is it's biggest problem? It run out of gas extremely quickly. Well, a card was recently printed that fixed that.

FateSligh.dec (Name Pending)

Mana///19
R Lotus Petal
R Black Lotus
R Mox Ruby
4x Simian Spirit Guide
12x Mountain

Mana Denial///5
4x Wasteland
R Strip Mine   

Draw///5
4x Wheel of Fate      
R Wheel of Fortune   

Control///5
4x Tangle Wire   
1x Fury Charm

Burn///11
4x Reckless Abandon
4x Lightning Bolt   
3x Fireblast   

Beats///   
4x Grim Lavamancer   
4x Gorilla Shaman
3x Blood Knight
4x Mogg Fanatic

Sideboard///
3x Fury Charm
4x Pyroblast
4x Pithing Needle   
4x Pyrostatic Pillar

Sligh has alot of new, awesome toys. Wheel of Fate is amazing...drop it turn 2-3 and you can almost carelessly cast the rest of your hand over the next couple turns. I almost always win after it it breaks; it's just a risky move against Combo so often I don't unless it's absolutely neccesary. Remember, it's more like a draw 8 for you. In responce you can play whatever instants are in your hand, such as Fireblast/Lightning Bolt. Alot of times I remove any Simbian in hand, just in case I draw Bolt or Fury Charm.

Blood Knights are awesome beaters. They are great versus Fish because they can block Jotun all day and can kill Mages/Ninjas in combat. The 2/2 first strike is enough to be a threat against most creatures, the pro-white just tops it off.

Fury Charm has great synergy in this deck. With a CMC of 2, it can hit pesky Chalices set to 1. It also can knock a Wheel down 2 counters at the end of your opponet's turn so it will break unexpectedly. The +1/+1 and trample is a good option also because it can turn your 1/1s into Fish-killers. I run 1 in the main to be able to remove Chalice. With Wheels you can often draw into it. I may drop a Reckless Abandon for another.

I chose to have Pillar in the sideboard because it often hurts way too much. Now that you have a great draw spell, you can keep casting spells. Sometimes I even have two suspended Wheels! Pillar is great verus Fish/SS/Combo so it's a solid SB choice, but too risky for the main.

This deck has been doing pretty well. It needs to find a solution to Oath...I was thinking Goblin Bombardment but there isn't much room. Any ideas?

[Demonic Attorney]

Moved to the Vintage Improvement Forum.

[wethepeople]

I too have considered optimizing Sligh, but in order to do so, some serious changes will of course need to be made. Red Elemental Blast, and Chalice of the Void really seem like great main deck selections, they help the Gifts, Combo, and the like matchups significantly.

One other thing I had on my mind was splashing a color, as opposed to run the regular mono red. White, or Black, can both offer great new cards. Some of which, but not nearly all of them, I listed below:

White:

• Kataki, War's Wage
• Isamaru
• Jotun Grunt
• StP
• Disenchant/ Ronom Unicorn (to improve Oath)

Black:

• Duress
• Dark Confidant
• Cabal Therapy
• Echoing Decay (for ETW)
• Extirpate

One other card that interests me, but I have never really been able to find use for is Imp's Mischief, it may be an adequate choice in deck similar to this.

Now, I understand that this is doing nothing more than making this deck nearer and nearer to TMWA, and other decks of that matter, but really, I think those color configurations are the most optimal for hate-decks in Vintage right now.

[Thegreatgonzo]

Just a suggestion :
If you don't like pillar in the main, psychogenic probe could be considered. With a metagame so loaded with tutor effects, it might be a nice replacement. It's a bit weaker, but it only hurts the opponent.

[Tin_Mox5831]

To be honest, Red really isn't the best color to start in to build a meta-hating deck. Black is much more well-equipped to beat the gauntlet right now. However, if I were to invest time in playtesting a red-based deck to spoil the meta, it would likely resemble Stacker much more than traditional Sligh. The main problem with Sligh is that it's gameplan is archaic when compared to the current Vintage landscape. Sligh's heyday came at a time when simple land destruction was viewed as a major control element for such aggro-control decks. Unfortunately, this method has lost much of it's potency. Decks are more resilient than ever and are also as broken as they've ever been. As a result, the lock components and bigger beaters seem to make Stacker the better of these two rogue choices.

But I could be crazy.

Later,
Dave

[madmanmike25]

A few suggestions:

1.  Add in Bloodstained Mire and/or Wooded Foothills.  They thin out the deck while feeding Grim Lavamancer.

2.  Add Pyro Pillar to the maindeck.  You run plenty of creatures and Grim helps you maintain that advantage.  The opponent most likely will be casting more spells, not to mention that Pillar hits them FIRST.

3.  Consider Magma Jet.  Scrying is very helpful for a deck that is concerned with card quality.

4.  Chalice @ 0 pwns Wheel of Fate.  Have you encountered this much?  Not to mention that if you don't win the turn Wheel of Fate resolves, you are in a very bad way vs. combo and Gifts decks.



A buddy of mine built a similar deck but he has 3 Red Elemental Blasts in the main.  REB off a SSG is awesome, you will encounter blue quite often while playing Magic.  It is also very amusing for the blue player to ask the red player if every spell resolves.  He has Pillars and Viashino Heretic maindeck.  It's powerful stuff.  3 mana is sort of hefty for Heretics, but they are worth it to maintain control while doing damage.  They are also insurance against an early Tinker->Colossus.  11 dmg for 2 mana is nice.

Problems with Oath?  Less creatures and Claws of Gix maybe. Good luck

[EKM_Ichorid]

I haven't encountered problems with Chalice at 0. When people see I'm playing Sligh, they Chalice at 1.

I was running MD redblasts for a while, but often it hurts not to have an additional threat/source of damage.

I'd like to be able to hit two lands kind of consistantly...so I don't know how much I like running fetches.

The Pillar does NOT help against combo that much...the more I play the spells, the less they have to play. Small Tendrils KILL. Most games I lose to Combo are to small Tendrils or quick Empty the Warrens. I really don't know if it's worth the spot, and what I would cut.

I was running Jet in my first version. Scry is definitely cool. However, 2 damage for 2 mana is not the greatest and often the Scry was not helpful unless I was getting rid of lands.

Because I run Wheels, I cannot run Chalice. 0 and 1 would kill me. I thought of Null Rod, but its too many intensive.

[silvernail]

Null Rod is not too mana intensive, you are already running tangle wires that cost 1 more than Rods.

Slith Firewalkers might be nice, with petal ,ruby and SSG, you can roll one out on turn 1. He's a pretty serious threat amounting to 6 damage in 3 turns if left unchecked.

I'd probably cut 4 mountains for 4 wooded foothills, as previously stated they improve your future draws and build the yard for mancers.

I'd run one less fireblast and sub in a demonfire or kaervek's torch because you have less mountains now, and you almost always only want to draw 1 fireblast per game and not 2.

I'd consider Shattering Spree sideboard over the Fury Charms, since you stated wanting them for artifact removal, but I'd also cut a Reckless Abandon for one more FC in the main. Spree can more reliably hit a Chalice too boot.

I might try to fit in 1-3 Tremors , Pyroclasm or Volcanic Spray or something if Fish / ETW are common in your meta. Sure it can wipe your board, but an army of opposing creatures will kill you, nessecitating a reset button.

Also Chain Lightnng might be good to have for extra chances to draw a 1cc 3 damage spell.

[EKM_Ichorid]

Null Rod is not too mana intensive, you are already running tangle wires that cost 1 more than Rods.

Slith Firewalkers might be nice, with petal ,ruby and SSG, you can roll one out on turn 1. He's a pretty serious threat amounting to 6 damage in 3 turns if left unchecked.

I'd probably cut 4 mountains for 4 wooded foothills, as previously stated they improve your future draws and build the yard for mancers.

I'd run one less fireblast and sub in a demonfire or kaervek's torch because you have less mountains now, and you almost always only want to draw 1 fireblast per game and not 2.

I'd consider Shattering Spree sideboard over the Fury Charms, since you stated wanting them for artifact removal, but I'd also cut a Reckless Abandon for one more FC in the main. Spree can more reliably hit a Chalice too boot.

I might try to fit in 1-3 Tremors , Pyroclasm or Volcanic Spray or something if Fish / ETW are common in your meta. Sure it can wipe your board, but an army of opposing creatures will kill you, nessecitating a reset button.

Also Chain Lightnng might be good to have for extra chances to draw a 1cc 3 damage spell.

Null Rod is not a lock. Tangle Wire is.

Shattering Spree can't hit Chalice for 1, which is the only time I'd need to remove it.

Why would I want an X spell if I only draw into 2-3 lands?

[Glix]

Shattering Spree... can... hit chalice for 1...

Due to the speed of the format, I feel the lack of rod is a serrious problem.  It doesn't hurt you at all, and it can serriously hinder your opponant's strategies.  Perhaps above rod I would run chalice even.  It has long been established that Chalice + Shaman = Awesome.  One or the other is a neccessity, imo.

I agree with Firewalker, I would run it over blood knight, at least main.

Chain Lightning seems almost strictly better than reckless abandon.

Fetches should be run, as there is no reason not to run them.

Don't cut fireblasts, though, thats just ridiculous.  Fireblast is what gives this deck any teeth at all.

[Kieranwolf]

A few points:

Disruption is pretty vital, and Red has few options. Null Rod dropping first turn is still really good. Chalice is really the only other option not in the list, but I do understand why it isn't present.

WoF mark two: You wait how many turns to win? Is Tangle Wire + Mox Monkey really reliable enough to get you to turn 5-6 consistently against decks like Gifts and GrimLong? I realize that Fury Charm helps, but it also sacrifices power for versatility.

Reckless Abandon is one of the most classic 'worse than' cards. Goblin Grenade started going missing in Goblin builds for a reason. Fireblast is nice with REB backup, but otherwise what's worse, losing a threat or two lands when your spell gets countered?

Anyway, enough skepticism/criticism for the moment. If you want a better matchup against Oath, have you considered Mishra's Factory? It doesn't trigger Oath, and it's also immune to about all of the mass removal cards that are going to show up in greater numbers to oppose ETW. Echoing Truth, Pyroclasm, Rolling Earthquake, blah blah etc. It also doesn't care about Chalice @ 1 or 2 or whatever. I've seen it bounced by Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall, but in a metagame where Stax is on the decline you might not have to worry as much about them. Purely experimental, by the way.

Also, instead of Claws of Gix you might want to test Goblin Bombardment. Both cards have their uses, but in Vintage I think it's better to have a finisher than life-gain.

I really don't quite know what to make of this build otherwise, so I've nothing else to add. Testing Null Rod main would probably be a good idea, and the Mishra's Factory/Bombardment against Oath might be useful. In a way, with less 11/11 indestructible tramplers running around, Sligh might fit in somewhere in the metagame again. Or monored aggro, at least. Sligh as an archetype would need some sort of free turn 0 Null Rod+Ankh of Mishra effect that can't be bounced, targeted or removed from the game to resurface.

[silvernail]

due ot the way replicate works, yes spree can hit chalice for 1, which is why its much better. Also you replicate 2-3 times and they will have a hard time countering all 3 copies. This is why I say its more reslient than FC, and over all more powerful.

An interesting card I recently remembered was Bloodfire Dwarf. Its similar to Mogg Fanatic, but instead of pinging for 1, you can clear out multiple X / 1 fish guys or a horde of goblin tokens.

Tangle Wire and Null Rod essentially have the same function : slowing your opponent down. Null Rod is cheaper but only slows decks that use artifact mana. Wire is more expensive, but it can slow down decks without artifact mana. Its a metagame call, and if you dont see alot of artifact using decks then Wire might be viable. Rod is probably better in a fully powered metagame however.

The X spell is probably a bad call, Final Fortune might be a better 1 of to help randomly win games.

[ReAnimator]

Has price of progress been considered? and if so what made it not worth while?

[madmanmike25]

Slith Firewalkers might be nice, with petal ,ruby and SSG, you can roll one out on turn 1. He's a pretty serious threat amounting to 6 damage in 3 turns if left unchecked.

Yeah, Slith over Bloodknight for sure.  But then, what about Ball Lightning?  That card is worth 6 dmg in ONE turn.  SSG, Ruby, Petal, and Lotus gives you a very good chance at casting it turn 2.

Has price of progress been considered? and if so what made it not worth while?

I used to include 4 copies of PoP when building mono red decks.  That card would avg. 4 dmg.  With fetchlands, they just go get basics in response and if a dual is in play before you cast PoP, you would rather waste it for disruption than do 2 extra dmg. 

My buddy played his mono red burn against my Stax deck and I just wasted all my non basics in response except for one.  Then I played them from my GY with Crucible.  I took 2 dmg. 

[Harlequin]

If you end up with Ball lightning you might consider going:

4 Ball Lightning
4 Spark Elemental
4 Skullclamp

with Lavamancers and Jackel Pups?

Its interesting synergy that I breifly experimented with back in the days of mirodin.  However at the time 3sphere was un-restricted ... so burn/sligh had little chance. 

Its likely better than wheel of fate.

[madmanmike25]

Hate to say it, but I think Wheel of Fate has to go.  It's only good if you drop it turn 1-2, and still has drawbacks(feeding opponents GY).  Its a horrible topdeck as well.

Here's what I would build.

Burn Baby Burn

Creatures: 15
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mox Monkey
3 Ball Lightning
4 Slith Firewalker

Spells: 19
4 Chalice(a must imo)
4 Magma Jet (scrying is great)
2 Shrapnel Blast(4 Chalice and moxen.  One of these takes away 25% of their life total)
2 Fireblast (Think of this and Shrapnel Blast as your heavy dmg spells and as closers.)
2 Skullclamp
1 Wheel of Fortune (Not a horrible topdeck like wheel of fate)
4 Pyrostatic Pillar

Acceleration: 9
4 SSG (yes, its also a creature late game)
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire/Jet/any except Pearl, the lame mox.
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring(works with clamp, Mox monkey, Shrapnel Blast, Wheel, and any colorless needs  you might have)

Land: 17
4 Wasteland (a must)
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
6 Mountains
1 Stripmine


SB
4 Sirocco(heavy dmg for Gifts)
4 REB
4 Tormods Crypt
3 Shattering Spree

A very rough build.  Imagine a Slith getting huge under a Pyro Pillar.  Imagine if you have creature advantage AND two Pillars out.  Grim Lavamancer will help keep you ahead in the creature dept.  You have to remember that Pillar does not hit you first.

I once built a deck with 4 clamps and spark elementals(among other creatures).  It's fun, but one clamp is really all you need in play, and it makes you have to cast it first THEN play your creature.  That's why I only included 2 clamps.  Again, its a rough build.

[Kieranwolf]

Here's a bunch of random info:

Ball Lightning doesn't fit into the aggro creature niche at all. It's three mana, it doesn't disrupt, and it doesn't even stay around. With skullclamp it becomes 2RRR: Deal 7 damage to target opponent. 1: Draw two cards, or 0: Draw two cards at end of turn. Either way, the extra cards probably won't help you until your next untap. That also makes Ball Lightning asynergistic with REB. I think there was discussion about it on the old Sligh thread I started last year.

Slith Firewalker can be good, but it also fails to force interaction unless it's swinging for the win. I use it in slower formats than Vintage, where I've had little success with it in 'Sligh' builds.

I think Bloodfire Dwarf would make a good utility creature, though. I remember seeing it in Whirlpool decks way back when I first started playing.

PoP is unfortunately less good than it used to be, but still viable. Two mana for four damage is still really good, but nowadays you'll see just one nonbasic on the other side of the board much more often.

WoF(ortune) is still a favorite of mine, and it's even better now with SSG. I cut it back when I was still using mono-red at local tournaments because it hardly ever drew into free mana (Lotus/Petal/Mox/Chrome weren't quite enough), but I think it's an auto-include now.

I may just test Skullclamp. It ends up costing some mana, but it might lead to more consistent turn four wins. I'd definitely use Spark Elemental over Ball Lightning first, though.

I might MD Spree, or at least include four copies in the SB to beat up Stax and Fish in game two.

Oh, and just as a last note: Don't expect to win many matches against powerful decks if you can't consistently whack the goldfish by turn four. Slower wins are usually ok, but only if your opponent is being forced to interact with your strategy instead of just goldfishing you. Or if you maindeck REB and count on Clamp to draw you cards, you might be able to trade speed for card advantage without giving away the win.

[silvernail]

You could be janky and try mogg war marshal for some card drawing wih clamps.

[Kieranwolf]

A note on draw engine:

Saying that Red has no actual card drawing isn't correct. I'm not talking about Browbeat, either. I'm talking about Squee. I've been testing Bazaar with mostly good results. Four Squee seem to be necessary, but Sligh's a red deck, so he's at least castable in a pinch.

Skullclamp hasn't even made it into my test list, but I still think it might be good. I just don't like the creature base that Skullclamp seems to need. It also costs mana, while Bazaar totally doesn't.

Here's the list:

Mishra'sFactoryismyhero.dec
4 Bazaar
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Ruby

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar (Very much the all-around MVP)
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

SB:
4 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Goblin Bombardment
3 Bloodfire Dwarf
1 REB

By all means an experimental list, but it seems fairly tight already. Pillar has been really good, as it always was (except against Ichorid).

The SB especially has some good possibilities other than what I have there.

Jitte for the Fish/aggro matchup
Dead/Gone for Colossus, though the slot also works for general creature removal
Lava Dart is never a bad choice
Anarchy kills pesky big-assed white creatures like Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt and Auriok Salvagers

For now I'm going to keep testing. The Gifts matchup seems ok already, but ones like Fish need to be better.

[madmanmike25]

Interesting list there.  I would cut one Squee for Gamble.  You want to see Bazaar before you see Squee.  Gamble is also a janky tutor for Stripmine/any card.  Seems like Bazaar can support multiple Lavamancers, thats nifty.

The Gifts matchup seems ok already, but ones like Fish need to be better.

How do 4 Grims not help against the Fish matchup?

Have you considered Fiery Temper and Viashino Heretics for SB?

[silvernail]

If you are gonna look to madness cards, you could run that color shifted arrogant wurm, reckless wurm.

Another jank card might be Goblin Lore. Its a 1R sorcery that draws 4 cards and randomly discards 3. Red card drawing at its best I suppose.

[Kieranwolf]

I really don't think Gamble...

Damnit. I'll test it, because it's the best red card ever (besides Kird Ape and Mox Monkey, but sorceries can't compete with primates). Lore is right out, though. Discarding multiple cards at random can be a bit problematic.

Reckless Wurm looks good. This deck is really good at keeping Jotun Grunt on the board, and having something as big as he is might be useful. Essentially, Grunt is about the only problem the list faces vs. Fish (besides active Jitte). I was considering Char (and I still am, frankly) because it's the only four damage spell that costs less than four mana (and doesn't require a creature sacrifice) just because of that dude. No one wants to have to two-for-one a 4/4 just because it's a 4/4.

I have one or two regrets about the list so far. No Magma Jet, and too many 1cc cards. I'm not swapping Jet for Bolt, though. That's crazy talk.

I'd add Chain Lightning before Fiery Temper, no offense. And Heretic seems a bit slow, honestly. What matchups would he be best for?

[Harlequin]

I think Heratic is a great all around card.  If anyone follows my posts... you'd know that.  Heratic is perfect in vintage right now.  Firstly, hes a one-man wrecking team vrs stax.  He also keeps tinker->face-smasher from ... well working. 

Now that makes him a good tool against stax, and a marginally good tool agianst blue control.  If it were only for those two factors, he would be a sideboard card.  However ... he has a 1/3 body.  In a world of 2/1's and 2/2's  this is huge.  So now not only does he own stax and have staying power agianst tinker - but he straight block confidant and savanah lion!

oh but wait... theres more.  Hes a 3 cost answer to chalice of the void, he means that slaver has to get 10 mana to hardcast a slaver instead of 6 and next turn 4, He usually absorbs the entire force of a triskellion (while dealing 6 damage in the process), can pro-activly interupt welders by killing the inplay artifact, and enjoys snacking on Jitte/SoFI.

The only top decks where heratic is not as useful is Ichorid and Oath.

[Kieranwolf]

Hmm...that makes sense. I was skeptical because Heretic isn't so amazing in the (11/11-less) Gifts matchup, which I consider to be the most important at all times. At least not compared to the shaman.

I suppose I wouldn't hesitate to mainboard him if I was expecting lots of Slaver and Stax. I would if the metagame was more fish and Gifts and aggro, though.