Q&A The Third

[Vegeta2711]

About a year ago I started another Q&A thread, I hate wasting articles on this stuff so I just make threads and edit my answer into your guys posts later. So yeah, ask me something.

Few guidelines:
1) Be Specific!. Don't use vague open-ended questions. Ask me something that I can actually answer without devoting a treatise to it.

2) Use the search function before coming here. I'm not answering anything that's been gone over 4 million times before.

3) No Decklist Requests, that's what the search button is also for.

4) No stupid questions.

5) No B/R things.

6) Try not to cross-chat too much in the threads, I find it clogs them.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Mana drain has come under fire recently as becoming less central to blue 'control' decks' strategy, since these archetypes tend to become more combo and less control.  As some evidence I offer:

1) Limoge's introduction of Ritual Gifts
2) Beuler's mentioning it was the weakest card in MDG and frequently siding them out
3) Probasco winning with a list only running two drains

Is this a fad, the beginning of a trend (e.g. as the broader metagame accelerates, drain becomes less prominent), or something that depends ultimately on your playstyle and adapting to your local environment?

I started a thread in Vintage asking the same question and ultimately was left with a couple of reasons why Drains are slowly fading out of popularity.

1. Decks are much faster and more resilient than ever before so resolving a Mana Drain is no longer this huge game-breaking play. The only difference is people are far slower to want to cut Mana Drain, because it's much more of a safety net card than say... LOA was. With LoA, people were quicker to jump to 'win more' status with it because they could make some sort of connection about when and how it was winning.

With Mana Drain, you don't really have that. You have the times where it saves you and the times where it doesn't and usually when it doesn't, people don't go, 'Well that sucked, why did this plan not work?' They shrug their shoulders and say better luck next time. People aren't going to normally connect losing with Mana Drain being not so hot.

I don't think it's a fad. I think it's really a natural evolution of combo-control decks as they move to become faster. Remember that when combo-control first took over a substantial metagame presence, there was still more 'traditional control' like Tog and CS hanging around. So keeping Mana Drain made more sense, because you were dealing with slower decks where playing a prolonged game-plan could be superior in some situations compared to the 'win now' mentality many people have.

The shift towards Duress, REB/Pyroblast and reduced need / want of Mana Drain reflects people realizing they want to fight combo-control decks more like combo decks. Being proactive in attacking their strategies and with components that either hit harder or give you more of a choice in the matter then Drain does. It also pushes the point home that if you want to be reactive, you want to spend the very minimal in resources in doing so. Coming up with Mana Drain + Gifts mana in the early game is pretty hard compared to using REB or Mis-D to do so.

This doesn't mean Mana Drain will just keep falling out of decks, it just means that combo-control decks will have to take a harder look at why they play the card and how useful it really is. It'll also depend on how you want to set your deck up, a deck like Ritual Gifts has moved as far away from the hyrbid strategy as it can without just being pure combo. Some may even argue that it IS just a combo variant at this point, but I think that's just hybrid strategies reaching a logical end. Then you have something like Dry Slaver which still loves having Mana Drain and still is running metagame and 'answer' cards in the maindeck at the same time. Clearly it wants to be able to set itself up in a control role at times.

You're also correct in that the metagame will also help dictate how valuable Mana Drain is. For example, Shop decks have almost completely fallen out of favor with people all over the place. Meanwhile Ichorid now has enough pilots at some tourneys to make it a significant factor to consider. That's another shift completely unfavorable to keeping something like Mana Drain in the deck.

[LotusHead]

Mana drain has come under fire recently as becoming less central to blue 'control' decks' strategy, since these archetypes tend to become more combo and less control.  As some evidence I offer:

1) Limoge's introduction of Ritual Gifts
2) Beuler's mentioning it was the weakest card in MDG and frequently siding them out
3) Probasco winning with a list only running two drains

Is this a fad, the beginning of a trend (e.g. as the broader metagame accelerates, drain becomes less prominent), or something that depends ultimately on your playstyle and adapting to your local environment?

Follow up: Is this because of the threat of Ichorid Builds and a re-emergence of Fish builds?

It certainly doesn't help Mana Drain's case. Being practically dead against these decks plays into the metagame shift I was talking about in GI's post. As hybrids evolve, they'll become even worse to play Mana Drain against. Ichorid already ignores practically all countermagic just by it's default deck strategy. Then add in Fish which was almost never significantly hurt by Mana Drain to begin with.

So really, what decks are left in the metagame where Mana Drain is a grade A most worry about threat? Or even great protection? Certainly not against combo. Arguably not against most kinds of Gifts. Fish and Ichorid? God no. Shop decks have pretty much disappeared. So instead of entire deck archetypes that Mana Drain is good against, your left with it being good only in certain situations.

[roberts91rom]

Even I can answer this question. Mana Drain is too slow for the current environment. Sitting back and leaving UU open is just not as powerful as it was even a year ago. Combo and Oath races Drain, Fish ignores the mana boost it provides, Ichorid ignores it completely, Control decks wait for your EoT threat thus ignoring Drain and in general everything either races or ignores Drain. Should this not be enough there is also a plethora of other options that make up for Drain's weaknesses. Duress, REB, Pyro, MisD, Leak, Daze, Therapy, etc. I have cut Drains from my CS list and have never looked back. I almost made at least T8 at a Beta Ancestral tourney but a play error and 2 Combo decks kept me in check .

I do not think that Ichorid and Fish is the direct cause of Mana Drain being dropped. However, the threat of Ichorid & Fish certainly sped up the process of innovation to get Drain replaced. Had those 2 decks stayed to the side it might have taken longer for the evolution, but I tihnk it still would have happened.

[InfinityCircuit]

This past Sunday, your recommended version of Bauble Ichorid made top 4 at a Mox Emerald tournament in California.  (I believe this is the highest-finishing Ichorid list since The Mana Clash.)  What do you think of the minor changes made to the list?  Would you alter your original list now that Extirpate has settled into the metagame as a minor force?

-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Sundering Titan

Yay for my Ichorid build!

I think the Sundering Titan is fine to add to the maindeck. There isn't a whole lot of difference between 6 or 7 manlands. I don't really 'get' Strip Mine in Ichorid. I mean I understand that yeah, sometimes you sack out your opponent and you get an awesome start and hitting a land is the big elbow slam. But realistically I found I rather have the minimum 6 manlands to consistently help with Dread Return.

As for Expirate, I honestly don't care. This deck gets hurt much worse by Leyline or Crypt than Expirate. Not to mention the manlands already help give a built-in defense against them as far as alternate kill conditions go. Sure they could slow you down with it, but you aren't going to auto-lose if you do. Plus people tend to over value cards like that in this match-up, meaning they keep weaker hands on the average when they see one.

Also for note, the Nexus's were originally added to give an alternate attack route via early Dread Returns as well as giving extra defense against grave hate.

[hitman]

The Blinkmoth Nexus' are there to minimize the effect of extirpate.  If they Extirpate Ichorids or Shadows you still have the Factories and Nexus' to sac.  If you cut them for a Sundering Titan, and your opponent casts an Extirpate on your Ichorids or Shadows, you won't even have the creatures to sac to a Dread Return to bring the Titan into play with.  Strip Mine is pretty irrelevant against Extirpate.

[Vegeta2711]

I love how this is my Q&A thread, but people are feeling the need to chime in anyway. It's cute.

I'm moderating my own thread, so I'd appreciate keeping the cross-talk to a minimum. Thanks. I'll be editing in answers later tonight.

[Crankster]

What do you think is needed for workshops to come back in force? As is now only rituals of "the big three" are really popular. If shops and drains really are in a downward trend rather than a fluke, how will the metagame then adapt?

Trinisphere.

No seriously, Shops need Trinisphere or a similar card. The reason why Shop decks were amazing during that time period was half because Trinisphere was a card that came down on turn 1 consistently and immediately had a significant impact on the opponent's resource development and plan down the road. Cards like Tangle Wire or Sphere of Resistance aren't going to make anyone change the fundamental plan of their deck, nor the tactical plan they've come up with in-game. They may be forced to adapt it slightly, but they simply don't do enough in the time frame given for them to be all that awesome.

Shops are amazing mana accelerants, but the cards they play all fall into one of three categories at the moment.
1. Slow threats (Juggernaut, Karn, etc.)
2. Stall (Tangle Wire, Sphere, Crucible with Strips, etc.)
3. Disruption (Smokestack, Possessed Portal, Uba Mask, etc.)

The problems with current Shop decks are that the vast majority of cards that fall under #2 aren't that strong or lose all of their power after a few turns. Then the #3 cards, the ones that are supposed to do the damage to the opponent and really make him work for a win are sloooooooow. Trinisphere is everything you love for breakfast, covered in gravy. It comes down early, it doesn't lose power as the game goes on and it does enough damage to game-plans that it can actually count as legitimate disruption.

What could save current Stax / Shop decks is if a legitimate search engine is found so it could shift gears from stall to disruption to finishing the game in one nice swoop. What the deck really needs is a Transmute Artifact that's colorless or at least a single colored mana. The closest right now is Bazaar + Welder, but that's slow and... well not so great.

Or Trinisphere. That would help a lot.

[Darkenslight]

How would you feel if YawgWin or Gifts was banned in the next Rotation?


Wouldn't care really. I don't think Gifts is restriction worthy yet and Yawgmoth's Will is annoying enough that I wouldn't cry if it was lost to the B/R list someday.

[Anusien]

With decks like Gifts becoming faster and more resilient (based on Empty the Warrens), what do you feel that the role of aggro and Shop decks are in the current metagame?  Do they even have one?

The new role they have is being byes.

In all seriousness, Fish fills the role of metagame for both decks. Fish and Ichorid basically fill the void of a metagamed aggro deck, in fact you could even consider aggro the mid-range decks of the format due to the speed of everything else. They attack fundamental underpinnings of the format via powerful disruption like Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Cabal Therapy, etc. in exchange for a lack of card drawing/search and speed.

Shops will come back when somebody either
A. Figures out a new engine that works
B. Trinisphere is unrestricted
C. A Trinisphere / Chalice level card is printed again

[Aardshark]

This past Sunday, your recommended version of Bauble Ichorid made top 4 at a Mox Emerald tournament in California.  (I believe this is the highest-finishing Ichorid list since The Mana Clash.)  What do you think of the minor changes made to the list?  Would you alter your original list now that Extirpate has settled into the metagame as a minor force?

-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
+1 Strip Mine
+1 Sundering Titan

Sam Sherman piloted Josh's list and my cardboard in this tournament.  I hate to admit that the above changes were in part informed by card constraints.  If I remember correctly, the titan maindeck was deliberate, but Sam also wanted to add something I didn't have on hand (to the sideboard I think) and we were already at 10 proxies, so he dropped an additional nexus (that I was missing) for a strip mine to free up a proxy slot. (I know, its embarrassing to be constrained building ichorid... I was missing stupid things like Urza's bauble that the store didn't have.)  I personally think strip mine in ichorid can be quite strong, but agree its kind of random as a one-of without Petrified Field to fetch it "late game" (which obviously didn't make our cut). (Shout-out to Sam! He's a freshman at Cal and this was his 2nd vintage tournament ever I think. Hurray for new talent!)

A question for Josh to validate this post:
What are your current thoughts on Grim Long's (both 5c and 2.5c, but not pitch) sideboarding options, particularly versus control-combo? Recently Dissolutionist and others have been winning tournaments with Orim's chant in their side (in place of xantid swarm). I tried this last weekend and was not thrilled: I found it difficult to cast when protecting my combo due to mana constraints; it also failed to stop my opponent from comboing, because each time I had it, it was either durressed away or countered their combo turn. 

What would you do with the "protect the combo" sideboard slot in Grim? My sense is that swarm is a little slow for the current meta (certainly suboptimal versus ritual gifts), and less needed due to the decreased number of mana drains.  REB/Pyroblast seems narrow (and also tougher to cast in 2.5). Is Force of Will worth a another look? (This is what I'm currently testing on MWS--its been ok, but 16-17 blue cards post board seems a little low.)

Or should "protect the combo" cards be abandoned for strictly defensive cards, like tormod's crypt (or conceivably leyline of the void) versus ritual gifts, pitch long and ichorid (as a side benefit this would free up slots for better sideboard than Wumpus versus fish, like more Massacres)?

For reference, last sunday I played the following sideboard in a fairly standard 2.5+c grim long list:
4 Orim's Chant
2 Thrashing Wumpus
1 Rebuild
3 ETW (4th main)
1 Massacre
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Planar Void

Do you have thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance!

I now hate life. Lost a big post on this because Word and FF managed to crash together, SO GOOD.

Summary:
Force of Will is great if you can run it w/ 17-18 cards. It's the best protection spell behind Duress, bar none. If you can't support it, my next favorite are Cabal Therapy and Xantid Swarm. Orim's Chant sucks for protection because it sucks up a non-Ritual colored mana when trying to go off, which is huge. It's also more or less a desperation maneuver when trying to stop someone else.

I don't like cutting the protection slot from the board entirely, although it's justifiable in some metagames. Thrashing Wumpus seems like crap, has he ever actually been good? I know I could never get him to work... actually the most effective joke creature I've ever used was probably Black Knight. Kills everything in Fish save Grunt and can't be plowed. Good times...

I'll try to expand upon this a little more tomorrow, I'm just peeved at the moment.

[Aardshark]

Thrashing Wumpus seems like crap, has he ever actually been good? I know I could never get him to work...

Since you asked, Thashing wumpus has been . . . ok.  I ran two in my board at Eudemonia's most recent Emerald and Pearl tourneys. Against ichorid, it won me game two and should have won game 3 (which went to time and drew). BUT, game 2 was a gift from my opponent, who should have stopped dredging and switched to topdeck mode because it was his only way to win--and had he done so he would indeed have found his third mishra's to flashback dread return FTW.  I don't think the fact that my opponent *should* have won through a fairly lucky topdeck invalidates wumpus per se, but it must be noted.  Game 3 the board was legitimately locked and I surely would have won.  My hand was pretty crap both of these games, so I'm not sure if I would have won had the Wumpus been crypt instead.  Of course, I would have still had the rituals I burned on wumpus, but game 2 it took me 5 turns to find a draw 7, surely enough time for ichorid to recover from crypt (though not an early planar void...). 

Against fish, I don't think Wumpus ever resolved (one of the problems with the card obviously). I do think it drew a FoW one game--card parity since I had to ritual to cast it.  I think in most situations Massacre is better versus (most) fish, since it wrecks their team, can't be dazed, and is card advantage against FoW.  The problem is, Massacre is only good against one sub-archetype--fish decks that run plains--so its very narrow (although good at the moment, since UW(b) fish is in vogue right now, at least at Eudemonia's meta).  I'm totally going to try black knight

I also tried Wumpus against Stax (not my usual stax strateigy) in a meaningless 5th round match.  And indeed it won me game 2--killing bob and swinging for the win. Again, not sure if ETW wouldn't have been just as good.  Game 3 my opponent jester's capped away my Wumpus's in an unusual position (he had the board pretty much locked, but had been wrecked by bad mana crypt coinflips, so a resolved wumpus would have been game if I untapped). Even though it went fairly well, I still don't think I'll make wumpus my default strategy against stax with Bob and welder, but I will keep it in mind as alternate strategy should it stay in my board. 

In sum, my verdict on Wumups is inconclusive.  Its expensive to cast (b/c you must have a ritual to burn), but combines utility and an alternate win condition against a number of archetypes into the same sideboard slot, and can be very strong if it does resolve.

An aside--wumpus is much stronger against Smmemen's mana-light ichorid than against your build with 6-7 man-lands.  Previously Smmemen's version seemed to be the default, but this may well change given Sam's success with your build. 

P.S. Sorry for the double post--I originally added this to my previous post, but it seemed unwieldy.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I have been out of the Vintage loop for a while, but how does Bomberman fall into all of this meta? Numbers have been put up with a deck where it was rumored for Mana Drain to be too slow and clunky, but a four mana Giant Spider has the ability to take it all down. Theres no denying that several people have put up numbers with the deck. It can't be classified as a combo deck at all, it's more like Keeper to me, often it plays reactively searching for answers with Trinket Mages, and at least I rely on Cunning Wish, as my win all, end all card. Is strange 'ol Bomberman one of the last threads of old Vintage thats holding on?

Edit: The more I think about it, isn't Psychatog or CS a stronger route then Bomberman even? Or the strength of Bomberman just the WTF factor, what do I do?

[o]

What do you think of Western Tolaria (a card that will be printed in Future Sight)?  It's ability to search for a land like academy uncounterably coupled with of course the ability to search up black lotus for a combo deck like Salvagers gives it a lot of versatility.  But it may be too expensive, as 1UU is a lot.

This is it:
Western Tolaria
Land
Western Tolaria comes into play tapped.
T: Add U to your mana pool.
Transmute 1UU (1UU, discard this card: search your library for a card with converted mana cost 0 and put it into your hand.  Shuffle your library.  Play this only as a sorcery.)


Western Tolaria would've been really broken in control mirrors about 3 years ago. Nowadays I can't see anything more from it than a very limited role in some random deck like Bomberman as a 1-of or something off the wall like that. Otherwise unplayable. I mean Sylvan Scrying sees no play and that's just better than this in most situations.