Modular and Welder

[LotusHead]

Arcbound Crusher
Oracle text: Trample
Whenever another artifact comes into play, put a +1/+1 counter on Arcbound Crusher.
Modular 1 (This comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it. When it’s put into a graveyard, you may put its +1/+1 counters on target artifact creature.)


Goblin Welder
Oracle text: Tap: Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player’s graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

Ornithopter
0 0/2 Artifact Creature
Oracle Text:
Flying

If my opponent welds out my Arcbound Crusher with 10 counters on it, and swaps it for my Ornithopter, is the Ornithopter eliigable to get the 10 modular counters?

Is this relevent to that Oath of Druids vs GameKeeper/DragonBreath issue?

I opted for "No, 'thopter wont get anything" based on the do this and do that, but it welder still has the word "Simultaneously" EDIT: Apparently not Simultaneously. I wonder where I got that from? ) on it.

Thanks in advance!

[Harlequin]

Yes, he can be modulared onto.

Weld is on the stack, targeting the crusher (in play), and the 'thopter (yard).

Weld resolves, and the ability resolves completely.  -after- the entire ability is resolved, gamestate is checked and the modular trigger must go on the stack.  It requires a target, so the controler chooses a target - at this moment, the weld has already completely resovled and the ornithopter is in play.  So he meets all the requirements for a leagal target of the modular ability.

Now that targets have been declared, the ability goes on the stack, and active player gains priority to act.

[LotusHead]

Yes, he can be modulared onto.

Weld is on the stack, targeting the crusher (in play), and the 'thopter (yard).

Weld resolves, and the ability resolves completely.  -after- the entire ability is resolved, gamestate is checked and the modular trigger must go on the stack.  It requires a target, so the controler chooses a target - at this moment, the weld has already completely resovled and the ornithopter is in play.  So he meets all the requirements for a leagal target of the modular ability.

Now that targets have been declared, the ability goes on the stack, and active player gains priority to act.

I thought the same thing about Gamekeeper trigger and DragonBreath's Trigger.  What I am asking is A) if it works B) how is this different from Gamekeepers ability in relation to Oath of Druid's similarily worded (although different) ability?

If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

Is the difference that Crusher/Module is in play as ability resolves, while Ornithopter in grave has no activated abilities to worry about? Help!

[Clariax]

The difference is in the trigger conditions and when targets for the modular trigger are chosen.  With modular, it triggers when the permanent with modular goes to the graveyard, and the target for the ability is selected when the trigger goes on the stack. 

Note that when it triggers and when the trigger goes on the stack are 2 different times.  Something will trigger whenever the trigger condition is met, even if it's in the middle of the resolution of some other spell/ability.  The game waits until the next time a player gets priority for that triggered ability to go on the stack, however.  And between those two events, the gamestate may change.

So, with Welder, you resolve it's ability in the order instructed on the card.  First you sacrifice the Crusher.  This causes it's modular ability to trigger, but since you're in the middle of the resolution of an ability, that trigger can't go on the stack yet, so it waits.  Then Ornithopter comes into play.  Now that the ability is done resolving, State-Based effects get checked, then the trigger goes on the stack.  At this time, the target for the ability is selected, and ornithopter, being in play now, is a legal target.


With Gamekeeper/Dragon Breath on the other hand, Dragon Breath isn't in the graveyard yet when the creature comes into play.  It will be in the graveyard a very very very short time after.  Dragon Breath's trigger is, "When a creature with converted mana cost 6 or more comes into play, you may return Dragon Breath from your graveyard to play attached to that creature."  Because it's trigger moves the enchantment from graveyard to play, it must be in the graveyard to trigger.  At the time the creature comes into play, the Dragon Breath is not in the graveyard, it's actually still in the library.  Even though the Breath ends up in the graveyard just after the creature comes into play, "just after" isn't good enough.

[LotusHead]

  Something will trigger whenever the trigger condition is met, even if it's in the middle of the resolution of some other spell/ability.  The game waits until the next time a player gets priority for that triggered ability to go on the stack, however.  And between those two events, the gamestate may change.

Thanks for the detailed analysis.

I am kinda familiar with "Triggers waiting to go on stack" since I am an avid Mesmeric Orb player (those triggers wait out untap step and go on stack at beginning of upkeep).