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Author Topic: [Premium Article] The Mean Deck Solution to the Vintage Metagame  (Read 12742 times)
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2007, 03:10:44 pm »

It's great that you guys are presenting your version of this deck, but I think calling this a major innovation or the "Mean Deck" is just taking it a little too far. Many people (including myself) have been playtesting this type of deck for a LONG time.

The NorCal crew has been playing "Ritual Gifts" forever it seems and Europeans just call it TPS, which many dismiss just because of the name but the deck has been evolving and adapting in the overseas metagames for years (see MaxxMatt's post).

Thanks for presenting your ideas on the subject, this is definitely the direction where post-restriction "Ritual Gifts" is probably going to head. What is in your sideboard? More bounce, red blasts, Massacre, extra mana, EtW?

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« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2007, 06:52:04 pm »

It's great that you guys are presenting your version of this deck, but I think calling this a major innovation or the "Mean Deck" is just taking it a little too far. Many people (including myself) have been playtesting this type of deck for a LONG time.


What is this "type" of deck?   A deck with restricted black enchantments, lots of restricted tutors, Force of Wills, Duresses, and plenty of accelleration?   That encompasses Gifts, Long, TPS, Intuition Tendrils, Ritual Gifts, Brassman Gifts, Meandeck Gifts, etc, etc.   

But then again, that''s the point that I was making in my article “Offshoots and Ladders” on February 12, http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13687.html  I documented the evolution and development of the Gifts and Long archetypes.   I pointed out that people were finally connecting the two archetypes strategically.   We saw attempts to bridge the divide between Gifts and Long. 

To reiterate what has already been stated in this thread - the cards are not new.    That's the point and the reason this deck is so good.  We've been dancing around this for 18 months.   It's only now that my team has pulled it together, although others have gotten close.   

The reason for calling it mean deck is the 4 Merchant Scroll, which is a minor change in terms of raw card numbers, but tactically and strategically critically different.   TPS typically was just a mishmash of restricted cards that ran Time Spiral and alot of other restricted cards.   This deck has a much different and far more coherent game plan around the engine of 4 Merchant Scroll sufficient that this is not a TPS deck.    It's the aggro mode of MDG.

No one that I had seen had put 4 Merchant Scrolls into TPS.    It's a major innovation in terms of bringing together the Long/Gifts hybrid into a coherent form but not in terms of the actual cards themselves. 

That's why this deck is called the Mean Deck - it's 4 Merchant Scrolls in this shell - a shell that we've all seen dozens of times before, but no one had put 4 Scrolls around it. 

4 Scrolls is the whole reason for the new name.  It's a new plan, tactically and strategically.   4 cards is an entirely new engine that changes the entire internal dynamic of the deck.   

I posit, very simply, that Ancestral Recall is the best and most important card to resolve in Vintage next to Black Lotus.   Once Ancestral Recolves, I posit that that player wins the game more often than not.   You are ahead in terms of card advantage, tempo, and card selection.   

That's why I think all of the previous iterations that have come before fall short and why this is such a major advance in terms of understanding of the format, if nothing else.   

Merchant Scroll is a great follow up  card for its flexibility.  you can find more threats, more answers, or tutor chain with Mystical.   

In short, no one before had put 4 Scrolls into this deck without running Gifts as well.    By defying that particular convention and identifying the key engine (best engine) in unrestricted Vintage, we assert that this is a unique and worthy innovation that justifies the new name. 

Quote

The NorCal crew has been playing "Ritual Gifts" forever

By forever, I hope you mean the last 6 months when Scott Limoges started publically talking about it. 

Six months in the larger scheme of Vintage is almost nothing.   

Moreover, Ritual Gifts is barely 5 cards different from Meandeck Gifts.    I still think that it was a pretty big advance because Scott keyed into MDG weaknesses and evolved the deck in the right direction.    This deck is the evolutionary offshoot of both decks.   In a sense, you could say that MDG was the grandfather, and Ritual Gifts the father. 

Quote
it seems and Europeans just call it TPS, which many dismiss just because of the name but the deck has been evolving and adapting in the overseas metagames for years (see MaxxMatt's post).

I read through Maxxmatt's post, and unfortunately, what eludes him and others is that none of those lists have 4 Scrolls - they look pretty much the same as they did back in 2003.    TPS is a pretty awful deck because Grim Tutor was a stronger engine - and hence, Long decks consistently outperformed TPS.

Unfortunately for Europeans, Grim Tutors are pretty scarce in non-proxy environments.   And hence TPS still existed in European non-proxy tournaments.

Again, and the key difference, is that none of those decks ran even anything remotely close to a full complement of Scrolls.

Quote

Thanks for presenting your ideas on the subject, this is definitely the direction where post-restriction "Ritual Gifts" is probably going to head. What is in your sideboard? More bounce, red blasts, Massacre, extra mana, EtW?


I can't emphasize this enough: this deck was designed for a Gifts environment and designed to compete (and beat) Ritual Gifts as well as Control Gifts.   It is not supposed to be a post-restriction Ritual Gifts, but the evolutionary pinnacle of the Gifts/Long archtype.

Whether it succeeds in that or not is open to debate.

I discuss the SB in some detail in the article, but in line with Chapin's suggestions, this deck wants to morph into the control mode as strongly as possible post board.   Part of it is simple: decks bring in answers so the aggro mode is less successful.

The deck should have no less than 2 Massacre, 3 Red Blasts and plenty of GY hate post board.   I prefer at least 1 T. Crypt, 4 Rebs, and 2 Massacres as the starting point. 

Interestingly, I no longer favor Empty the Warrens simply because I've sensed that the metagame has shifted around it somewhat.  I see Stax decks with Kegs and Bridges and other decks with Engineered Explosives, etc, etc.   
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 06:58:28 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2007, 07:02:01 pm »

Brassman had triple-Scroll TPS six months ago. So, the idea is not without precedent.
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« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2007, 07:44:53 pm »

This deck is really good.  What do you think about Frantic Search?  It seemed like, when I was playing/watching Demars, that he would have so many dead cards (Forces, Duresses, Lands, etc.) from a Bargain or some combolicious state that Frantic Search would be very solid at converting mana and filtering through to business.  Impulse also seemed really good for Demars for pretty much the same reason.
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« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2007, 08:10:42 pm »

Impulse is also a great anti-Mindcensor tool.   

Frantic Search is potentially very solid, it's a nice Scroll target and helps remove dead cards, as you suggested.  It can also generate mana with Academy.   However, it doesn't dig as deep as Impulse.   Impulse is almost a quasi-tutor since this deck is entirely 1's and 4's.   
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« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2007, 08:18:11 pm »

I just want to emphasize that I am not attacking you guys. I think the input provided by you and your team is a great boon to this community.

I'm just not agreeing all that much with this particular archetype being referred to or renamed as the "Mean Deck". That is a meaningless term to the the community as a whole. While we may disagree on which is better (I believe Ritual Gifts is a superior build, but that is a moot point since Gifts Ungiven is now restricted), we are still talking about very similar, overlapping, existing strategies.

At this point in time in Vintage, changing a couple of cards isn't enough to rename an existing archetype. When Aven Mindscensor came out, I, like many others, put in Stax. Should I then call this new deck "BHWC deck" instead of Stax?

I am not trying to say I invented anything, or came up with something before anyone (although I was the first to think about using Ancestral Recall in Vintage  Wink)... but the reality is, you should call this list something that does not ignore its already existing history. Perhaps it's Mean deck's take on TPS or Merchant Scroll TPS, but the "Mean Deck", c'mon...
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« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2007, 08:42:32 pm »

For those in need of a reminder:

Quote from:  TMD Rules
Deck Names:  Over the past two years, arguments over the proper names for some decks have repeatedly resulted in flamewars and other rules violations.  As a result, TMD staff has decided to prohibit the discussion of deck names on the forums.  This includes arguing about who did what innovation first or who came up with what "tech" first.  This is not a place to stroke your E-Penis!
  See also, The stickied post at the top of this forum.

Verbal warnings to MaxxMatt and Akuma.  Everyone else, please give this whole race to claim credit for who did what first a rest.  Thank you.
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« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2007, 09:36:17 pm »

How is the deck's Ichorid matchup?

I would test it myself but with the second coming of Gush and the rise of Flash/Ichorid, there are more pressing matchups to test.

Still, I am curious. By cutting Grim Tutors it seems you are losing speed, which you make up for by having lots of disruption - but that disruption is more or less ineffective against Ichorid. Some goldfishing with the deck leads me to believe that it is still on the Gifts side of the Gifts/Long spectrum, at least in terms of speed - it is still a turn 3 deck. This isn't a problem per se (at least before Future Sight, Flash, and Gush), but in my experience only turn 2 decks have a good matchup against pre-FS Ichorid in game 1. Do you seek to win this matchup in games 2 and 3?

Thoughts?
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« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2007, 01:00:43 am »

Here is the list of this that I played in Roanoke this weekend.  I ended up going 5-1 in the Swiss, and I lost in top eight to some very, very timely draws to Ritual Gifts in top eight.  My build is a little bit more controling than Paul's.  I replaced "bombs" with a little bit better mana and a little bit more library manipulation.  I found that it wasn't very difficult to set up a protected turn 3 play where I was able to win the game that turn.  Both of my losses were to the same guy (I believe he went on to win the event) which was very close to being a mirror match since our stratagies were very similar; although the match could very easily gone either way because in multiple games I was able to put him into positions where he had to make very particular draws in order to not lose. 

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Impulse
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Minds Desire
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Time Twister

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Empty the Warrens

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 SOl Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Duress
1 Massacure

I ended up cutting Vampiric Tutor and Burning Wish from the maindeck to make way for the two Impulses.  All seven matches I played I asked myself "Would Vampiric Tutor or Burning Wish have been a better draw?" Every time I drew an Impulse, and not once would I have rather had eiter of those cards.  So I was fairly happy with my decision to run them, and would likely run some number of Impulse if I played the deck again.

Extirpate was the worst card in my board.  I would much rather have had almost anything else.  They probably should have been Tormod's Crypts.  In all honest I barely used my sideboard at all.  In most of my matches (Gifts/Long)  I just boarded +1-2 Red Elemental Blast for 1 Cabal Ritual and 1 Fact or Fiction).  And against Dredge I brought in my Hurkyls Recall and 4 Leylines.

I think that this was the first time that I've ever played a Vintage deck with "Dark Ritual"  in a Vintage tournament before, so I was really happy to have made top 8.  If I could have built my deck differently...  I would have left the maindeck exactly as it was, but had the following sideboard.

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt

2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Burn Out
2 Disrupt

2 Hurkyls Recall
2 Massacure
1 Duress

I liked the Empty the Warrens.  I only cast it three times.  But each time it was followed with a lethal swing via Time Walk.  Its a pretty interesting deck to play. 
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« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2007, 10:37:07 am »

The more that I look at this deck, the better that it looks.  I woke up yesterday morning convinced that it was at best a marginal innovation; I woke up this morning convinced that it was the best thing Since Sliced Bread (TM).  This deck is beautiful.  It's Long, but without the clunky Draw7's and the tutors that I always considered to be pretty poor.  It's Gifts on fast-forward.   Merchant Scroll feeds the disruption and card draw of the deck, while the Rituals power out absurd bombs.  It's a perfect synthesis of what Long and Gifts aspire to be.  I'm just gushing about it at this point, but this is the deck that you always want to build, the one that doesn't 'break' the format but in truth defines it.  It's not necessarily the best deck in the format (it may be, but I haven't tested it enough to know).  What has been found here is the perfect mix, and that's an astounding accomplishment. 

Moving on from the adulation, I have some questions for Mr. Demars:

1) How good was Mind's Desire for you?  In a deck with so many lands and disruption spells, it seems like you'd need a very big Mind's D indeed to be effective.

2) Would a 4th Duress have been better than one of those Cabal Rituals?  It seems to be that having too many one-shot mana sources in a self-described control deck might be a problem.

3) Why no Tolarian Academy?  In a deck with nine artifacts and serious mana hunger, wouldn't Academy have been very good?
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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2007, 11:34:41 am »

Brain, I was very suprised to see you play a deck that is very similar to IT despite saying this about IT


Quote from: ffy
Against IT right now my plan is to board in Crypt, Duresses, Stifles and REBs.  I don't have much respect for IT as a deck;  I actually think it is a pile of garbage, a Grim Long with training wheels for newbs if you will, so I actually don't have much of a problem stomping IT into the ground unless they have a really good hand;  i.e.  a hand that looks like a Grim Long hand (Necro, quick Will, Desire).  That is really the only way for them to win.  Secondly, their deck is SLOW by combo standards.  They aren't really looking to kill you until turn three or later... Which means you have plenty of time to get your counterspells on line and start drawing cards on their end steps.  Also, turn three means that you are also at the threshold of doing broken things to them... only you can do it reactively after they try and you make the save.

Against a deck that doesn't play counterspells, Slaver can pretty easily get to a Yawg Will and/or a Slaver activate on turn four... Sometimes soonertr, but that is the exception to the rule.  Grim Long is the deck that actually makes me want to change my board around, that deck is a problem (as is Ichorid);  IT is a laughable foe;  its a slightly better TPS.

Just my opinion (which is the result of extensive testing of the match up), I don't think IT is a problem match up for Slaver, at least not in the way that the other combo decks are.

Ouch, that's rough.

Let's make some comparisons...

Quote

Your Deck                                      IT
4 Merchant Scroll                             1 Merchant Scroll
0 Intuition                                       3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm                                   
4 Force of Will                                 3 FoW
2 Impulse                                       0 Impulse
0 Grim Tutor                                   2 Grim Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor                             
1 Ancestral Recall                           
1 Time Walk                                   0 Walk
0 Vamp                                          1 Vamp
1 Minds Desire                                 0 Desire
0 Mana Vault                                   1 Mana Vault
1 Fact or Fiction                               0 FoF (FOF and a 4th FoW was in and out of the deck in this slot, I'm not sure what it was in Richmond)
0                                                   1 ??????
1 Chain of Vapor                             
1 Rebuild
1 Time Twister                               

4 Dark Ritual                                   
3 Duress                                          4 Duress (same total of FoW + Duress)
2 Cabal Ritual                                   
1 Demonic Tutor                             
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain                       
1 Yawgmoth's Will                           
1 Necropotence                               
1 Tendrils of Agony                         

1 Empty the Warrens                         0 ETW (not printed)
0 Hurkyl's                                         1 Hurkyl's

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 SOl Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island                             0 Volc (+1 Academy +1 Fetch)
2 Island
1 Swamp

Okay, so you were 9 cards off from IT, but the cards you played had the exact same function as those that you cut. The 2 decks played out very similarly except you decided to go with less tutoring power and more random card draw. So what caused this change in heart? or do you think the 2 decks are nothing like each other?

Trust me on this though, Intuition is better than impulse in decks like this. You said you liked impulse b/c it was blue and found either protection or mana at the opponent's EOT. Intuition won't fail at doing this b/c you are seeing 4 random cards, plus Intuition sets up huge yawg wills much better.
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« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2007, 02:19:23 pm »

I don't know about what you say there, kobefan.  I have a lot of respect for you as a deckbuilder and a player, but I just can't see how Intuition = Impulse and Merchant Scroll = Grim Tutor (I assume that that's what you meant when you said the changes were for the exact same type of card).  Impulse is a consistently Turn 1 card that both smooths your draw and is immune to Mindcensor (a big concern for this tournament).  Merchant Scroll, I think everyone agrees, is a much better card than Grim Tutor; it's faster, less clunky ( {B} {B}), and blue.
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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2007, 02:56:28 pm »

I'll try and respond to all as quickly as possible.

Mind's Desire was insane for me all day long.  I view this deck as a 'Storm' deck, not a combo deck, not a Yawgmoth's Will deck, but plain and simple it just storms something fierce.  Since the deck already has so much fast mana with the Rituals, Moxen, and cheap cantrips.  If you are patient it is really not that difficult to Storm to about five with mana open on turn three or four.  (This is obviously a slower hand, but it is almost always good enough to win.

I never liked T. Acad in my testing.  Sometimes it was completely insane, and other times I would lose because it was one of my mana sources and my opponent had cast a Chalice of the Void before my turn.  I figured that I'd rather err on the safe side to ensure that all of my lands will make me mana all the time.  especially with Aven Mindsensors floating around to randomly cut players off from their fetch lands...  I figured having a land that taps for o mana sometimes was not acceptable.  In addition the inclusion of Impulse over a card like Intuition also serves as protection from mindsensor.

Cabal Ritual is sooooo good.  Most of the time I was trying to go off on turn four or five with two cards of protection.  Especially against decks that try to slow you down with disruption...  For instance the Bomberman deck, or a Storm mirror.  I always felt like my deck had enough gas that dispite my opponents having countermagic or Duress, I always still had cards to play thanks to Impluse, Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction and ESPECIALLY Merchant Scroll.  Cabal Ritual makes it very easy to play Yawgmoth's Bargain early if you can get threshed;  not to mention that while you are comboing off it often becomes Black Lotuses 2-3.  (It is a net of BBB, and often trades 1 for a 4th black.

And lastly @ Eric:  There are clearly going to be a lot of similar card choices between two UB Storm decks.  The most striking difference that I can see in the lists is between



4 Merchant Scroll                         3 Intuition
2 Impulse                                   2 Grim Tutor
                                                1 Merchant Scroll

The difference in the mana cost of our different business engines is:

The Meandeck  UUUUUU6 (12)
IT                   BBBBUUUU9 (17)

That is a significant amount of Mana to be using on the first, second, and third turns respectively.  The inclusion of so many 2 drop cards as opposed to three drops really ends up increasing the speed at which you can go offten by as much as a turn.  IE. The difference between turn 1 Scroll for A Call and Turn two Intuition for gas.  Also, playing Scrolls and Impulses of Vamp and Grim Tutors allowed me to play with four Force of Wills and almost always have a blue card to pair it with when I needed it.

I played this deck because with all of the Dredge, Flash, and Rituals floating around I simply felt that a Mana Drain deck had very poor chances for making the top eight.  I took my list in a slightly different direction than Steve and Paul.  I built to be a bit more controlling in hopes of having a slightly better matchup against other combo decks such as Flash or Rit Gifts.  Paul's list was a bit mroe mainstream...  He had more bombs in his list than I did. 

But seriously?  x2 Cabal Ritual = Black Lotuses 2-3
                    x2  Impulse     = Demonic Tutor 2-3


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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2007, 04:54:01 pm »

Thanks for the response Brian.

Quote
The Meandeck  UUUUUU6 (12)
IT                   BBBBUUUU9 (17)

I don't see the problem in having a mana intensive engine that's more focused on black an colorless mana when you play rituals.

I never thought 4 Scrolls in a deck like this would work. My assumption was that it'd run into a problem with rituals frequently being dead, by not having the right bombs to power out, but results speak for themselves. Congrats to Paul and Brian on the t8's.

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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2007, 05:23:10 pm »

Brian, did you find that you have difficulty with finding bombs in this deck? Your main tutor engine, merchant scroll, cant find a single one of your bombs (necro, will, barigain, minds desire, timetwister). Even with the ability to find draw (Recall, FOF) or sifting (Impulse) spells, it seems like this is a mana-intensive path to do what pitch long/IT does. You spend 1UU and hope to hit a bomb compared to 1BB and find the bomb of your picking. Not to mention that Grim->lotus->will yields +3 mana, whereas you can only stumble upon lotus with this deck.
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2007, 06:00:35 pm »



I never thought 4 Scrolls in a deck like this would work. My assumption was that it'd run into a problem with rituals frequently being dead, by not having the right bombs to power out,



Me neither. 

The article speaks to this issue in great detail (from a design standpoint). 
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2007, 09:01:32 pm »

All I saw in the Mean Deck was the absence of synergy between Ritual and Scroll.  My guess, however, is that the cards work more in parallel than in tandem.
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2007, 10:36:55 pm »

Article is live.   Check out the link in the first post.
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EKM_Ichorid
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2007, 11:47:10 pm »

The deck is definitely cool. UW Control is good against it, so I hope people play this deck alot...maybe my deck can start doing well.

I question Mind's Desire. How often is it more effective than say, Grim Tutor -> Yawgmoth's Will?
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2007, 10:43:33 am »

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I question Mind's Desire. How often is it more effective than say, Grim Tutor -> Yawgmoth's Will?

Probably when your opponent has a counter.

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Brian, did you find that you have difficulty with finding bombs in this deck? Your main tutor engine, merchant scroll, cant find a single one of your bombs

I'm interested in the answer to this as well.  How often are impulse or brainstorm the target of merchant scroll?
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Liam-K
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« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2007, 04:43:32 am »

FFY:

you list Duress twice in your sideboard, but show only 15 cards.  What's the last card?
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Othersider
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2007, 06:31:19 pm »

I'm curious for those of you who've played this deck (or one similar):  how good is Rebuild?  I haven't drawn it much, but when I have it hasn't really been the most useful.  Have I just not given it enough of a chance, or am I maybe doing something wrong?

Also, those who've added Impulse to this, what did you replace?

Thanks!
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2007, 08:45:59 pm »

Alright, so I read the article and have some questions.

First, I want to pull some of your quotes from the discussion thread from your "GAT, Pouring Rain" article.
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I know that I actually *love* seeing Street Wraith in my opening hands, regardless of the deck I'm playing.
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Don't expect Street Wraith in all my decks. A new deck i'm sharing next week does not run them. For different reasons you'll soon see.

The new deck that's referred to is obviously "Mean Deck".   So, why no Street Wraiths?  Or maybe, what are the different reasons because I don't see them.  You've also said in that same article discussion thread regarding the addition of Wraith to a deck:

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It turns out that that is a player specific determination that turns upon how skilled a player is at making mulligan decisions with more uncertainty

Given your argument there, I gather you're not comfortable making mulligan decisions with the very deck that you've not only designed, practiced for four months, but also wrote an article about.  I don't understand. 


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Street wraith's goodness is proportional to the power disparity between you cards.

This last quote is a common belief among Wraith supporters.  This is one I got from Rich Shay, from our team boards.   This seems logical, if you believe that Wraith is all it's cracked up to be.  If YOU assume this sort of logic, then wouldn't you agree that Wraith belongs in this deck even moreso than it belongs in GAT?

Also, replacing mana sources for Wraiths takes huge balls to do.  I'm even more amazed.
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