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Author Topic: Casual Fate  (Read 2393 times)
zimagic
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« on: June 07, 2007, 02:22:15 pm »

Everyone has their fetish deck. Mine is a casual creation created around one of the most challenging cards I've come across. thta card is [card]Shared Fate[/card]

When it came out first I built a U/B standard deck with counters and discard (no Leveller) and tried to go that road. In an enviornment where Affinity was the best deck both pre and post bannings it was never a runner and only came out when I wanted a laugh. Then it got forgotten until Ravinca came around and gave the deck, in my eyes at least, a huge shot in the arm. The deck is an extended or older deck (I'll get to that in a while) and it's hard to compete even casually with such an offbeat strategy.

I moved away from the creatureless counter/control strategy and tried something completely different. A lot of thought has gone into the deck and I'd like a lot more thought to go into it. That's why I'm bringing my baby to you for your help.

Dredge Fate:
4 Plains
5 Island
11 Swamp
1 Azorious Chancery
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Dimir Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Azorious Signet

4 Compulsive Research

1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Necroplasm
3 Court Hussar
1 Skulking Knight
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge

2 Peace of Mind
3 Faith's fetters
1 Nightmare Void
2 Ghostly Prison

3 Darkblast
3 Infest
2 Last Gasp
3 Brainspoil

3 Shared Fate

My thinking:
This version of the deck is set up to have a early game, a mid game and the usual route to victory of grinding your opponent down with knights which can be done both with & without Shared Fate in play. The deck is also designed to win under it's own power if you don't draw anything good off your opponent's deck which can be a problem against low threat-count control decks.

Everything in the deck has been looked at with a view to how it helps you and how much it would help your opponent if he rfg's it after a Shared Fate is in play. It's a risk against reward balance that I'm trying to skew in my favour without going 100% discard and blow things up. Apart from being a boring deck to play, that style of deck is reviled in the casual rooms on MTGO where this gets most play.

With 3 Brainspoil that can transmute for Shared Fate, I have managed to trim out a Shared Fate. Just a quick note on Transmute, your opponent can't use it as it requires you to discard the transmute card which can't be done from the RFG zone. You have a tutor and removal, your opponent has removal.

Your creature suite is the Haakon/Hussar engine (the weak point of the deck, I accept), reusable but easily removed creature/removal (Necroplasm), a cheap flying blocker that doubles as a tutor for you for your Haakon, Research etc etc (Drift of Phantasms) and a little cheap fat that's easily removed if your opponent gets it. The point of all of this is that it gives minimum help to your opponent, you can re-use any of it that gets dredged or killed (apart from the Drift) and most importantly, the keystone creature (Haakon) can't even be played by your opponent. The downside is that with only 2 copies currently in the deck, both can be RFGed by your opponent leaving your engine dead. It hasn't happened yet but I'm looking for the third copy anyway. The Skulking Knight is yours again with a simple Darkblast if it ever appears on the other side of the table.

The removal suite, in addition to the Necroplasm & Brainspoils, is based around the early game: Last Gasp, Darkblast & Infest. Global removal is good when all but 1 of your creatures can come back from the dead.

For added early game protection I have added 2 Ghostly Prison, 3 Faiths Fetters and 2 Peace of Mind. Again these are all solutions that you can get around if they arrive on the other side of the table and the Peace of Mind gives you the added ability to discard your Haakon while keeping you in the game.

Speaking about discard, there's a very helpful Nightmare Void that generally turns up after dredging a little and can either dump your Haakons, clear your opponen't hand or fill you graveyard (helpful when all of your threats come from the graveyard.) Another copy is a possibility which I have in my rarely used SB but I find it's rarely used and I have yet to lose a game for cards I didn't force a discard on. Let's not forget about Compulsive Research, it nets you cards, discards your Haakons & Knights and if your opponents aren't careful, post Shared Fate, will empty those last one or two spells from his hand when he casts it.

I have to say that it's the version of Shared Fate that has worked best for me since I started playing the deck and I have pretty much tried everything over the years. It's not the optimum version: surely there are better knights, Damnation will make a huge difference, do I need white?, there may be more fun stuff I'm totally missing, etc. I'm also waiting for legal functional reprints of Ghostly Prison, Faith's Fetters and Peace of Mind in either B or U! Surprised)

The big holes in the deck are you being open to graveyard hate, all copies of Haakon going RFG and finally the random factor of what your opponent draws off a removed Hussar (One opponent had the luck to find the sole Terashi's Grasp in his deck in the top 3 cards when he played a Hussar and I died to milling.)

I play this deck in MTGO and have a very limited budget (Infests would automatically be WOGs Mutilates or Damnations when they come out, lands would likewise be updated to Pain- or shock-lands) I don't play enough paper magic to justify updating the deck IRL. That said I want to look at optimum versions so please go to town.

Finally, I was reading through some old decklists and I came across a vintage version that tried for Doomsday into a turn 2 Shared Fate. If people have ideas along those lines then feel free to chime in.

So that's my deck. Thanks for reading. Feedback is more than welcome!
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Ephraim
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 01:44:54 pm »

Perhaps you could explain to me what your most reliable mechanisms are for getting around your own defensive enchantments when your opponent plays them against you.  You say that it is possible to get around them, but I don't immediately see how.  Obviously, if your opponent uses Faith's Fetters against you, you just attack with a different creature, but that is like saying that they're perfect cards for this deck because they're imperfect solutions.  In fact, if you could generally go into greater detail regarding how you selected 2 Peace of Mind, 3 Faith's fetters, 1 Nightmare Void, and 2 Ghostly Prison, I may be able to offer more advice regarding the tuning of this part of the deck.

I like how Drift of Phantasms fetches so many different cards from your deck.  I was going to recommend that you exchange Skulking Knight for Stromgald Crusader or Order of the Ebon Hand, but then I saw that you could transmute Drift of Phantasms to fetch Skulking Knight, if you really wanted to.  With that in mind, it might be effective to replace one copy of Faith's Fetters with Arrest or Shackles or some other 3-casting-cost answer.

You have mentioned yourself that you should have a third copy of Haakon in the deck.  I mention it only to express agreement.

In your experience, do your opponents seldom enough play both white and blue that they're unable to get a creature out of Court Hussar?  I could see this deck being effective with the bones of a more typical dredge deck.  You would have to cut some of your disruption tools, but Magus of The Bazaar and Stinkweed Imp could be of great use in getting your critical cards into the graveyard.  They may go a long way toward helping you to cut white from the deck, if that is a direction you think you'd like to take.
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2007, 02:05:54 pm »

When I built a Shared Fate deck, I used Snow Lands with Scrying Sheets.  You can deny your opponent mana off your own deck, hopefully stranding your spells in their "hand".  I never did find a good recursive threat, though, so I just ran like 32 counterspells.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2007, 02:45:40 pm »

I think the smartest/safest win condition I've seen in a Shared Fate deck was Phage.  Just run a ton of Dark Rits and Phage. So you can randomly win by hardcasting Phage and swinging for the immediate win... but when you share fate, even if they draw into enough rits and mana, and 'draw' phage - if they attempt to cast it they loose because they do not 'Play her from thier hand'

Extra Sassy!
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zimagic
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 03:29:30 pm »

Perhaps you could explain to me what your most reliable mechanisms are for getting around your own defensive enchantments when your opponent plays them against you.  You say that it is possible to get around them, but I don't immediately see how.  Obviously, if your opponent uses Faith's Fetters against you, you just attack with a different creature, but that is like saying that they're perfect cards for this deck because they're imperfect solutions.  In fact, if you could generally go into greater detail regarding how you selected 2 Peace of Mind, 3 Faith's fetters, 1 Nightmare Void, and 2 Ghostly Prison, I may be able to offer more advice regarding the tuning of this part of the deck.

The entire thinking about the white in the decks is "don't die in the early game". As a route to winning the game, the addition of white is the most efficient on a consistant basis (accepting the that mana base is updated). When you get into the late game and you opponent plays fetters on a creature, fine, you have other creatures. The deck is not geared up for a huge assault, just getting the 20 or so damage in at some stage. At a certain point the win just becomes inevitable, however slowly it comes about. With Haakon in play it's up to your opponent to get rid of him as his recursion effect isn't dependent on him being able to attack. You just keep pumping those knights out. All other creatures (excepting the Drifts) in the deck will find their way into play, into the 'yard and back into play at some point so the fetters is not an issue if played back against you.

Similiarly the Peace of Mind is a way to get some key cards from your hand to the graveyard via 3 lifegain. Most decks don't have "put that card into your hand" effects so the draw replacement of SF means that their potential lifegain is finite. The Ghostly Prison is another case where time will win out. Even the two in play at the same time means that you just have to go more slowly kill your opponent but you'll get there at some point.

The card numbers has a lot to do with my deckbuilding style. I start with 4 of everything and trim as I go, tinkering where I feel necessary. 4 Faiths fetters can give a lot of life gain to your opponent but you still want a better than average chance of seeing it during your first 4 turns. (Temporal Isolation would be a much better replacement depsite the missing lifegain. The lack of life loss in the intervening 2 turns of casting cost more than makes up for this so that's a potential change) Similiarly with the Prison & the Peace of Mind, 2 was the number I ended up at. You can discard through Compulsive Research so adding only 2 more discard effects feels right. You want to see or find a Prison often enough but not have multiples in your opening hand or across the table from you. The Nightmare Void is something I'd like more of but one of the cards I felt couldn't justify putting in the place of something else. The dredge aspect is great though. I'm divided on this.

I like how Drift of Phantasms fetches so many different cards from your deck.  I was going to recommend that you exchange Skulking Knight for Stromgald Crusader or Order of the Ebon Hand, but then I saw that you could transmute Drift of Phantasms to fetch Skulking Knight, if you really wanted to.  With that in mind, it might be effective to replace one copy of Faith's Fetters with Arrest or Shackles or some other 3-casting-cost answer.

The Drift was put in for that reason only and frankly it's a real pain if it ends up on the other side of the table as you need to attack with a 3 power dude, have him block and play 2 darkblasts to clear it away. This is the main reason I have so few in the deck. THe Arrest/Shackles idea is sound seeing as I'm ready to replace Fetters with Temporal Isolation anyway.

You have mentioned yourself that you should have a third copy of Haakon in the deck.  I mention it only to express agreement.

Noted

In your experience, do your opponents seldom enough play both white and blue that they're unable to get a creature out of Court Hussar?  I could see this deck being effective with the bones of a more typical dredge deck.  You would have to cut some of your disruption tools, but Magus of The Bazaar and Stinkweed Imp could be of great use in getting your critical cards into the graveyard.  They may go a long way toward helping you to cut white from the deck, if that is a direction you think you'd like to take.

No, but it's not really the issue. Generally the deck is so slow that opponents will get a few draws at my deck to find the right land to play it anyway. And if they don't get the white to have the Hussar stick around, they may still be tempted to run the risk of finding a solution in the top 3 cards of their own deck anyway. The likelyhood of your opponent play blue sources is quite high.

True. And if I had a Stinkweed Imp, I'd not have to worry about the opponent finding Drifts as the Deathtouch ability would clear the way so I could effectively run more Drifts and cut down on other cards.

Cutting white is simply a question of making the deck more streamlined. If it needs to keep white, then by all means we'll do that.

On the Magus of the Bazaar, you know that your opponent finding one means they have a card that says "if you have no cards in hand, draw two cards." It's a means both for them to find solutions to the questions your posing but also to deny you resources. That said, it's a 0/1. Is he a knight? Ah well!

When I built a Shared Fate deck, I used Snow Lands with Scrying Sheets.  You can deny your opponent mana off your own deck, hopefully stranding your spells in their "hand".  I never did find a good recursive threat, though, so I just ran like 32 counterspells.

The issue I have with this approach is that it doesn't work if they are playing the same colours. You denying them mana isn't a problem when they are drawing spells in colour costing 2 & 3 mana. By the time you get SF to stick, they should have 5-6 mana to play with your toys.

I didn't like the counters based version mostly because at some point you let something through and paid the price. THat said, I wasn't necessarily building the best version back then Smile

I think the smartest/safest win condition I've seen in a Shared Fate deck was Phage.  Just run a ton of Dark Rits and Phage. So you can randomly win by hardcasting Phage and swinging for the immediate win... but when you share fate, even if they draw into enough rits and mana, and 'draw' phage - if they attempt to cast it they loose because they do not 'Play her from thier hand'

It's an option certainly. For the exteded version of the deck it's not a runner but why not for Legacy.

Ok, great ideas. Please keep them coming!
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2007, 12:39:49 pm »

Just been bathing my kids when I came up with a few ideas for a totally different direction:  {U} {B} {R}

 {U} {B} gives you a recurring threat, mass kill, point kill, the control element of SF, tutoring through Transmute. If you give up  {W} for  {R} you lose the gain life, some board control and some discard. In return you gain fast mana, Wheel of Fate effects (important) and more board control.

I'm working on a few ideas and I'll come back to you with them later.

[back]

So, I had a few ideas that I needed to check again before coming back to this.

In one of the earlier incarnations of the deck, I kept getting destroyed by what remained in an opponent’s hand after I had dropped SF and looked for ways to get around this. Once option was straight discard, though that takes up a lot of deck space.

Another option was an effect that forced an opponent to remake their hand. The best for this is Teferri’s Puzzle Box as it updates your opponent’s hand in their draw step giving them only the end of your turn, their upkeep and the start of their draw phase (with the Box effect on the stack) to react to your Shared Fate. The big downside is that you really need to play them on the same turn, hope that you can draw into a Shared Fate off the Box effect or wait until you play SF to play the box the next turn (which gives your opponent lots of time to play some of his hand out).

Keeping that in mind I checked, and received confirmation, that cards removed from the game with Suspend cannot be suspended from the RFG zone. If they have a normal mana cost, they can be played normally (ie you can play Rift Bolt for  {R}2 but not suspend it for  {R}) but for Lotus Bloom etc. it’s all one way.

I came across this while looking for solutions to the speed issue the deck has. You see the land count needs to be pretty high to pay for all the fun stuff you need like a turn 4 Shared Fate. I thought, why not Red for some fast mana, Rite of Flame etc. and came across Wheel of Fate while browsing through card lists and it’s similarity to the Puzzle Box in emptying your opponent’s hand post Shared Fate. That led to Lotus Bloom and my question about suspending from the RFG zone.

Looking at red I thought about what else it could bring. The Lotus Blossom is probably better fast mana for the turns we really needed it, 3-5, and is much better for the turns after Shared fate when you may need colours of mana you don’t have in your deck or haven’t yet drawn. Best still is that it’s a dead card for your opponent. So is Ancestral Vision.

So now I’m working on this with Damnations and a singleton Puzzle Box in and Dimir House Guard to tutor them up.

I have a couple of Tolaria West, 4x Ancestral & 4x Lotus to search up with them along with a singleton Wheel of Fate.

I have Pyroclasm in for Infest and a reduced Haakon/Skulking Knight package to add to the singleton Leveller (searchable with the Brainspoils we need for the Shared Fate). This may need to be looked at as they are totally different strategies and with the Wheel/Box effects, it’s more than possible we’ll lose the Haakons. Ideas for recurring threats welcome here.

I have updated the land base to include Sac- & Shock lands. I still have 3 signets (one of each colour pairing in  {U} {B} {R}) and that’s about it.

I’m at work atm but I’ll write up the full decklist tonight when I get in.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2007, 03:59:44 am by zimagic » Logged

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Skadrian
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« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2007, 05:00:26 am »

just a little note, you cant tutor for the lotus or the ancestral, they dont have a casting cost, which is different from a zero CC
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zimagic
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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2007, 07:37:19 am »

just a little note, you cant tutor for the lotus or the ancestral, they dont have a casting cost, which is different from a zero CC

That's not nice. Are lands considered to have a 0CC?

It's ok for those two, the tutor was more to ensure I had a red source or for Wheel of Fate (which I'm not convinced about just yet so I'm not too cut up)
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« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2007, 11:54:16 pm »

just a little note, you cant tutor for the lotus or the ancestral, they dont have a casting cost, which is different from a zero CC
Yes you can.  In the rulings for Tolaria West on Gatherer:
Quote from: Gatherer
5/1/2007 Cards with mana cost 0 (like Pact of Negation) and cards with no mana cost (like Living End and every land) have converted mana cost 0.

And look at the reminder text on the card:
Quote from: Gatherer
Tolaria West
Land
Tolaria West comes into play tapped.
Tap: Add Blue Mana to your mana pool.
Transmute 1 ManaBlue ManaBlue Mana (1 ManaBlue ManaBlue Mana, Discard this card: Search your library for a card with converted mana cost 0, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. Play only as a sorcery.)

Don't offer rules tips if you aren't sure, and even if you are sure, you should post something to back up your claim.
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zimagic
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2007, 02:27:43 am »

Ok, I'm using this as a starting point:

2 Dimir House Guard
1 Leveller

4 Duress
4 Damnation
3 Pyroclams
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainspoil
1 Wheel of Fate

3 Darkblast

1 Dimir Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Izzit Signet
3 Shared fate
1 Teferri's Puzzle Box
4 Lotus Bloom

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tolaria West
2 Steam Vents
4 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
4 swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain

It's the Leveller only version and I've had a couple of good draws and a couple of blowouts so far. There's a lot of ducks to line up in the deck for everything to be perfect. Personally I like a backup plan in my decks but there's none here. I'll have to look at that.

Theory is as above, keep the board clear with Pyroclasm & Damnation and set up the combo with Shared fate and either a resolved Wheel of Fate or a Teferri's Puzzle Box with Leveller in your hand or on the table.
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