Type 0?

[sillysils]

Hey guys, this is my first post.  I am mainly a silent viewer of the mana drain, but I was just wondering if there was a format out there based around type 0?  This has probably been talked about by magic players throughout the age, but I was wondering, aside from the immense cost to play it, has anyone anywhere tried to start some underground playing?  When I refer to type zero, I mean that all card restrictions are dropped, including the four of a kind rule.  Most people will probably think this is a stupid topic, but I can make some pretty sweet proxies and I would love to try this out once or twice. Obviously the person who goes first will most likely win, but I'm sure the rules could be tweeked a bit to make it so that even though you have a broken deck, the oponent may have a chance.  That means having about 25 lotuses and 15 force of wills and some other crazy combo I'm too lazy to think of right now.  Anyway, I'm just trying to see if anyone has ever thought about this (most likely they have).  Thanks guys.
Sils

[Othersider]

25 lotuses and 15 force of wills

This deck doesn't sound like it has a reliable way to win.   

[psly4mne]

20 Simian Spirit Guide, 40 Surging Flame. Wins on turn 1 upkeep almost 99% of the time. If 40 card decks are allowed, a 27/13 split wins just over 99%.

[zulander]

Why not just use 20 black lotus, 20 channel, and 20 Kaervek's torch?

[Jacob Orlove]

Because you could lose the coin flip?

Also, you need two lotuses to win with that deck. Remember, Torch requires Red Mana.

[parallax]

Channel-Torch loses to Force of Will and Surging Flame. Surging Flame probably also loses to Force.

See some of the work we did on this format: Magic without the 4-of rule.

What's the best ratio of Surging Flames for beating Force decks? You'd want to include some mountains probably so you don't run out of Spirit Guides.

Lotus-Ancestral-Force seems like the best deck here.

[zulander]

How... you have to pay 2 mana to target torch with force. Surging flame does seem better though. And even though the combo takes 2 lotus from your hand you have 20 in the deck, which is prety darn good. Maybe cut channel down to 15 and add 5 more lotus to ensure you draw double lotus.

[Jacob Orlove]

Lotus and Channel are both counterable, even if Torch is not.

[zulander]

Yeah, but you start with 7 cards in hand. If they force one of them you play another one. They can counter 3 spells if they have a hand of 3 force + 3 other blue spells. Meanwhile you have 7 cards in your hand. And since you want more channel/lotus in your hand and only really need one torch then you would play 23 lotus/channel and 14 torch.

[Polynomial P]

16 force of will
24 lotus
18 minds desire
2 Tendrils of agony

Realistically, you need 3 or so lotus and a minds desire to be guaranteed victory. The FOWs give you a chance to win if your opponent goes first while you are virtually immune to counterspells.

[parallax]

Yeah, but you start with 7 cards in hand. If they force one of them you play another one. They can counter 3 spells if they have a hand of 3 force + 3 other blue spells. Meanwhile you have 7 cards in your hand. And since you want more channel/lotus in your hand and only really need one torch then you would play 23 lotus/channel and 14 torch.

3 Force > 2 Channel

Channel-Torch cannot beat a 3 Force hand if the Force player knows to counter the Channels. Even if the Force player tries countering your Lotuses, you can only win with a perfect hand of 5 Black Lotus, 1 Channel, 1 Torch. Even if the Force player only has 2 Forces, you can only beat the strategy "Force the first Lotus, then Force the first Channel." with a perfect hand of 4 Lotus, 2 Channel, 1 Torch, and even that hand is vulnerable to Force on both Channels. Channel-Torch has ridiculously long odds against a Force of Will deck.

I think Lotus-Recall might be better than Lotus-Desire. A good Force player will likely try to counter your second Black Lotus. Maybe a combination of Recall and Desire is better.

[zulander]

Even if the force player had 3 force in hand he'd have to give up 3 blue cards in his hand, leaving him with 1 card in hand which means he can't win on his next turn because he'll have a combo of 2 cards : 2 lotus, 2 force, 2 desire, 1/1 force/desire/lotus. He needs 3 cards to "go off", even then he could fizzle. Meanwhile you are left with 4 cards in hand and in a much better topdeck mode than he is. I still think channel-torch wins. FOW is card disadvantage for a deck trying to go off turn 1.

[technogeek5000]

Lol proxies would suck but 20 black lotuses, 20 ancestrall recalls, and 20 lightning bolts is pretty much a resilient automatic turn 1 kill.

[parallax]

Even if the force player had 3 force in hand he'd have to give up 3 blue cards in his hand, leaving him with 1 card in hand which means he can't win on his next turn because he'll have a combo of 2 cards : 2 lotus, 2 force, 2 desire, 1/1 force/desire/lotus. He needs 3 cards to "go off", even then he could fizzle. Meanwhile you are left with 4 cards in hand and in a much better topdeck mode than he is. I still think channel-torch wins. FOW is card disadvantage for a deck trying to go off turn 1.

First, a Force deck can beat most Channel-Torch hands with only 2 Forces.

Second, a Force deck could easily win off two cards if they draw Lotus and Recall.

Third, you won't have 4 cards left in hand. You have to use a Lotus to play Channel.

Fourth, your topdecking will be worse than the Force player's, because you need to topdeck more Lotuses and Channels, while having worthless extra Torches in your deck. The Force player can topdeck any blue cards to keep up. A player with Ancestral Recalls is in an even better position, as they are likely to outdraw you 3 to 1.

Fifth, trading a Force and a blue card for a Lotus and a Channel is not card disadvantage.