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Author Topic: Timbermare and Temporal Adept  (Read 1351 times)
Playboy514
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« on: July 10, 2007, 01:25:46 pm »

Timbermare
Card type: Creature

Creature type: Elemental

Power/Toughness:5/5

Casting cost: 3

Card text: Haste
Echo 5G(At the beginning of your upkeep, if this came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its echo cost.)
When Timbermare comes into play, tap all other creatures.

Temporal Adept
Card type: Creature

Creature type: Human Wizard

Power/Toughness:1/1

Casting cost: 1

Card text: UUU, Tap: Return target permanent to its owner's hand

Situation - I play Timbermare, and "In-response" my opponet pays  {U} {U} {U} and taps Temporal Adept to return Timbermare to my hand.  My arguement is that Timbermare isn't even in play with Temporal Adept becomes tapped, therefor he has no target to "In-reponse" to, am I right in thinking this?
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Anusien
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 01:44:22 pm »

"In response to" is a term that gets thrown about in ways it shouldn't.  You cannot respond to declaring blockers or other situations.  Here's the way it works in short:
You can play spells and abilities anytime you have priority.  Both players have to pass priority to end a phase.  During each phase, the active player gets priority first, then each player in turn after that player passes.
You get priority: Upkeep Step, (Draw), Draw Step, First Main Phase, Beginning of Combat Step, (Declare Attackers), Declare Attackers Step, (Declare Blockers), Declare Blockers Step, (First Strike Combat Damage goes on the stack), First Strike combat damage resolves, (Regular Combat Damage goes on the stack), regular combat damage resolves, End of Combat Step, Second Main Phase, End of Turn (Cleanup), Any additional EOTs and Cleanup Phases.

You get priority during each of those steps and phases.  The things in parentheses are game actions that happen.  All of them but combat damage going on the stack happen and cannot be responded to.

So how do you play a spell?  You put it on the stack, declare targets, and pay costs.  Then you pass priority, and your opponent can play effects, then pass priority back.  The spell won't resolve until both (all) players pass priority sequentially, and then the spell resolves.  When the spell is on the stack it is not in play and not a legal target for spells or abilities that affect in-play permanents (as opposed to spells).

--
In short, your opponent can do two things.  They can respond to Timbermare when it is on the stack, and they can target it with Temporal Adept while it is in play.  It is not a legal target for Temporal Adept while it is still on the stack.
However, what your opponent probably wants to do is respond to the triggered ability.  When Timbermare comes into play, its triggered ability "When Timbermare comes into play, tap all other creatures" triggers and is put onto the stack.  Before it can resolve, your opponent gets the ability to play spells and abilities, so what they probably meant to do is respond to its ability to bounce the Timbermare.  Assuming neither of you have other effects, Temporal Adept's ability will resolve, bouncing Timbermare, and then Timbermare's ability will resolve and tap all creatures.
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Clariax
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 01:45:53 pm »

You are correct.  Timbermare isn't a legal target for Temporal Adept until after it resolves.  Permanents only exist in play.  However, your opponent CAN wait until Timbermare resolves and then bounce it with Temporal Adept, while Timbermare's 'comes into play' ability is on the stack
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Aaron Cutler
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Playboy514
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2007, 01:17:37 pm »

I see, so the stack looks like

Timbermare's come into play ability (First)
Timbermare (Second)

Then after Timbermare resolves, before the "come into play ability" leaves the stack he can  {Tap} {U} {U} {U} from Temporal Adept and send it back to my hand.

And then everything still taps.

Thanks guys, appreciate the help, also thanks Anusien on the clarification of "In reponse".

-Pb
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 01:21:14 pm by Playboy514 » Logged
Anusien
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2007, 05:50:02 pm »

I see, so the stack looks like

Timbermare's come into play ability (First)
Timbermare (Second)

Then after Timbermare resolves, before the "come into play ability" leaves the stack he can  {Tap} {U} {U} {U} from Temporal Adept and send it back to my hand.

And then everything still taps.

Thanks guys, appreciate the help, also thanks Anusien on the clarification of "In reponse".

-Pb
Nope.  Timbermare's ability won't go on the stack until Timbermare comes into play.  It works something like this (stack grows upward from the $)

$
Cast Timbermare

Timbermare
$
Both players pass priority.  Timbermare resolves

Timbermare's CIP: "Tap all other creatures"
$
Timbermare's CIP ability goes on the stack

Temporal Adept's ability targeting Timbermare
Timbermare's CIP: "Tap all other creatures"
$
Opponent responds to the Comes into Play ability by activating Temporal Adept, targeting Timbermare

Timbermare's CIP: "Tap all other creatures"
$
Both players pass priority.  Temporal Adept's ability resolves, and Timbermare is returned to owner's hand.

$
Both players pass priority.  Timbermare's ability resolves, and taps all creatures in play.
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Quote from: H.L. Mencken
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
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