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Author Topic: TMWA- A RWB Version-Advice Needed  (Read 1661 times)
mr cheese
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« on: August 01, 2007, 06:48:59 am »

Hi, I'm new to T1, and I have looked at this deck called TMWA, and it looked fun to me, so me and some veterans made the deck and here is how it looks.

TMWA- The RWB Version

3 x Wasteland
4 x Bloodstained Mire
3 x Scrubland
2 x Plateau
3 x Badlands
1 x Strip Mine
1 x Flooded Strand

4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Grim Lavamancer
3 x Jotun Grunt
3 x Aven Mindcensor
3 x Bloodfire Dwarf

4 x Duress
4 x Hide//Seek
2 x Red Elemental Blast
3 x Magma Jet
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Enlightened Tutor
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Vampiric Tutor
1 x Demonic Tutor
1 x Black Lotus
1 x Mox Pearl
1 x Mox Ruby
1 x Mox Jet
Sideboard
4 x Leyline of the Void
4 x Pyroblast
2 x Swords to Plowshares
2 x Ghostly Prison
3 x Pyrostatic Pillar

This deck is going in many directuons, and I need help with the one I'm looking for.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2007, 06:53:16 am by mr cheese » Logged
Harlequin
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2007, 08:49:52 am »

I think chalice of the void is a particularly weak card in general ... and esp weak right now.  Flash could really care less, setting it at 0 is decent, but only if you have your own countermagic online.  And setting it at 2 before they go off is not really a reliable option for a shopless deck.  You can make the exact same arguement against GAT.  GAT doesn't even run full mox, so zero is even worse. 

I would cut Chalice for more board sweepers.  If your worried about flash, you might want to think about Pyrokenesis.  Its a reliable red turn 0 answer to the sliver kill (which dominates vintage).  It's also not bad against GAT because it can kill a growing dryad.  I think the best time to play it is as the 2nd or possibly 3rd counter is being added to dryad.  But its all a mater of how many instants you think they are packin'. 


This deck strives for consistancy, so, in my oppinion things like a singleton orims chant arn't worth taking up a slot.  Also, you need to make every draw count so the "top deck" tutors are not great for this deck.  You really need in-hand tutors.  So cut Enlightend tutor, and really take a good long look at Vampiric.  Then lastly, really think over the Crucible.  Its important to ask yourself: Is it worth it to spend a mana, a draw, and then 3 mana to get crucible?  Is the initial loss going to be worth the long-term advantage? 

A card you should consider is Extirpate.  Extirpate is great against both GAT and Flash.  It also can save the day against shop decks.  Against GAT, your glory shot is Gush.  Hitting Merchant Scrolls is another choice play, and sometimes better than gush, because they will be unable to dig out a bounce spell.  FOW or even brianstorm are good choices as well.  Against flash, duress on turn 1 with an extirpate on Flash ... yeah that's an easy win. 

Lastly, You may want to adjust your mana base to include SSGs too.


So in summary:
-3 Chalice
+3 Meta-card (like PyroKenesis)

-1 Orim
-1 Etutor
-1 Crucible
-1 Vamp
-1 Wasteland
-1 colored land
-1 other card (possibly: Grunt, H/S, REB)

+4 SSG
+3 Extirpate
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mr cheese
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2007, 05:32:01 pm »

edited my list
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SonataOfTheCathedral
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2007, 06:30:49 pm »

Cool deck, I like the fact you can bluff REB by being tapped out and catching them off guard with Simian Spirit Guide. Also I like Pyrokenesis based on the fact your deck has the potentiality to have multiple dead cards at some point in the game, but Kenesis gives you other options with those cards that weren't very strong. When your are holding a pair of REBS v an aggro deck, Kenesis will certainly put them to good use. Thats what I really like about that card.

-Elias
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NYDP
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2007, 07:32:29 pm »

I think chalice of the void is a particularly weak card in general ... and esp weak right now.  Flash could really care less, setting it at 0 is decent, but only if you have your own countermagic online.  And setting it at 2 before they go off is not really a reliable option for a shopless deck.  You can make the exact same arguement against GAT.  GAT doesn't even run full mox, so zero is even worse. 


I don't particularly agree with this.  Chalice at 0 stops the pacts that Flash plays, so a first turn Duress to clear FoW and a chalice at 0 and you potentially just screwed the Flash player looking to Summoner's Pact.

Against GAT, I would not hesitate for a second to Chalice at 1.  Duress, B-storm, Opt, Ancetral, Disrupt, Vamp or Chalice at 2 to stop Merchant Scroll, Demonic, Dryads, Fire/Ice if they play it, Mana Drain.

I think, for the reasons you listed, Null Rod is by far the inferior card in this situation.  Therefore if you are looking to stop moxen, I would switch back to Chalice, or perhaps Engineered Explosives.

Also, if you can't play with real duals, you might want to adjust some of the spell counts in your deck.  Pyro and Hide/Seek cost you some hefty life when flipped via Confidant, though both are good cards.  I think some of the Hide/Seek 's could be cut however, unless you see lot's of Oath.

My favourite version of TMWA used Enlightened Tutor to help fetch a number of silver bullet enchantments, although when I played it, I always wanted the Crucible that I played.  Lastly, Magma Jet has been used for it's manipulation.  While not really a great card by any means, it really really helped smooth this deck out.
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mr cheese
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2007, 06:45:36 am »

I really want to stick with 4 Hide//Seek in the deck. Pretty much all of the vets, 80% of the tourney, run a Tinker and a DSC just in case.

I'm really not worried about life loss, with 4 Hide//Seeks, using the Seek part can gain my life back.

There's another alternative, running Jitte. Not sure how many but I will probably consider it highly due to the random aggro I have.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I edited the deck once again, but I really want to fit in Vampiric Tutor, maybe Enlightened Tutor if I decided to put in Jitte. I just find cutting cards is the hardest part.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2007, 06:48:41 am by mr cheese » Logged
Harlequin
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2007, 09:10:24 am »

Quote
I don't particularly agree with this.  Chalice at 0 stops the pacts that Flash plays, so a first turn Duress to clear FoW and a chalice at 0 and you potentially just screwed the Flash player looking to Summoner's Pact.

Against GAT, I would not hesitate for a second to Chalice at 1.  Duress, B-storm, Opt, Ancetral, Disrupt, Vamp or Chalice at 2 to stop Merchant Scroll, Demonic, Dryads, Fire/Ice if they play it, Mana Drain.

I still contest that Extirpate is better against both of these decks, including better in the situations you've outlined.  In your Flash example, chalice at zero is only good if A) they have pact and no hulk, and B) you have countermagic that needs protection from PoN.  (and C if they have a mox heavy, or lotus hand).  In your example you have duress + chalice.  So you duress away thier FoW or presumably thier flash (if they can win w/o fow.  And you then cast chalice @ 0, shutting off thier pact(s).  Now consider you have duress and extirpate.  On turn 1 you extirpate thier flash, which dramatically reduces the chance they will win on thier first turn (they would likely need lotus + merchant scroll, or to have two pacts ... in which case you'd be forced to take something else with duress but lets stick to more average hands).  Now  lets say they use thier first turn merchant scrolling for a 2nd flash, but don't have the mana to win right now - a very typical scenario.  Now you go to your turn, and you extirpate thier flash .... how screwed are they?  Even if they have a hand full of countermagic, they can't do anything but try and win with sliver beats against an aggro deck.

In your GAT example with chalice at one, you really stop 6 cards that matter in thier deck:  4 brainstorms, 1 fastbond, and 1 chain of vapor.  Please note that casting a spell triggers dryad ... not resolving a spell.  So through opts into a chalice at 1 is really no sweat for the GAT player.  Chalice at 2 is good.  But again, this deck doesn't run shops, full moxen, or any sort of rituals ... so to get to 4 mana your looking at around turn 3 to 5.  Also your limiting access to Confidant, Grunt, and H/S - all of which are important to winning this matchup.

Now again, consider Extirpate.  Extirpate is good (esp along side Seek) because it attacks a decks engine.  Against GAT, heres a hint.  The first seek you draw, cast it immediatly and seek Fastbond.  I know its not as cool as gaing 5 life of a gush, but Fastbond is GATs real "win" card.   But I digress - There are at least 5 good cards to hit with extirpate: Gush, Merchant Scroll, Dryad, Brainstorm, Force of Will.   The value of Hitting each of these cards changes depending on what is going on.  If you've sucessfully Seeked Fastbond, then go for Merchant Scroll.  Gush is almost always good, reguardless of if Fastbond is still a threat if you hit Dryad early (who is not that hard to get in the yard with all your dirrect damage), the next target should be Gush.  Once you have Dryad out, its hard to build a lethal tog without Gush - and esp hard if you have a Grunt out.


Your probably right about Null Rod through.  However, I think Null Rod is still a useful tool.  Not so much against Flash or Gat, but against Bomberman.  Maybe its worth putting in the board.... and maindecking Jitte's in its place.  Jitte is really not that bad right now either.
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Roat17
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 10:42:40 am »

@Harlequinn - I appreciate your input first off.  Secondly, I would have to agree that Extirpate is good/better than chalice against these decks.  If you look at my original post, I quoted you as saying that Chalice was weak.  That's what I did not agree with.  I think a Chalice at 1-2 and 0 against flash hurts both these decks significantly, although Extirpate would probably be better in most situations.  That being said, I like the latest deck list that is posted except at this moment, I don't see Bloodfire Dwarf as being better then Lavamancer or Fanatic.  He's too slow to stop slivers and clears half your board.  If you want an early answer to Flash, up the Pyro's to 4 or replace him with Fanatics.

NOTE*  I've never used him with SSG actually.  I just realized this, and that may warrant his inclusion.
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mr cheese
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2007, 03:58:25 pm »

bump and update
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mr cheese
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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2007, 06:54:10 am »

changed up some of deck after testing.
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