Is Keeper dead for ever?

[breed]

Hi all,

I'm a huge fan of U based control decks. As far as I know, it seems that old good days of such things are over. The metagame seems to be too fast for old school control decks (Ichorid, Flash etc...). But with the fact that GAT is more and more played (is assume the fact that playing Swords, Counters, Balance, Fire/Ice etc... is to much for Dryads), can we see some new Keeper played?

I'm just trying to see what changes can be done to old 2003 Keeper, it seems that playing 4 Dark Confident is a must in such control deck.

Maybe I'm just wrong but if anyone can give some ideas.

Thanks!

 

[DuKeLiO]

GroATog totally rushed Keeper in 2003. Now Keeper is almost no played, the only reason I can see to play it is beacuse if MWS decks starts to see play now and the 4CC-type decks are a lot of better in this matchup than GAT. But Control Slaver is also better against MWS-decks and maybe it can be adapted to win against GAT or at least equal the matchup.

[zeus-online]

4CC (Aka. keeper) Did evolve alot after GAT was nerfed away, so it's unfair to say that keeper would still get smashed by GAT - That said, i really don't think keeper can become tier1 right now, Flash is likely too fast for keeper to reliably keep up with it...and GAT still has a monstrous draw-engine which i doubt good ol' scrying can keep up with.

As much as i'd love to play keeper again, i just don't see it happening...it's not just that keeper might not be tier1, but seriously, why play it when you could play GAT or flash instead, which are probably both alot better?

/Zeus

[breed]

As much as i'd love to play keeper again, i just don't see it happening...it's not just that keeper might not be tier1, but seriously, why play it when you could play GAT or flash instead, which are probably both alot better?

/Zeus

Thanks for replies!

I dont really like playing Green, so GAT isn't a good choice for me. Flash is interesting, but I love playing long games, I would love to play a U control deck (Slaver seems to be the best for now).

 

[Purple Hat]

As much as i'd love to play keeper again, i just don't see it happening...it's not just that keeper might not be tier1, but seriously, why play it when you could play GAT or flash instead, which are probably both alot better?

/Zeus

Thanks for replies!

I dont really like playing Green, so GAT isn't a good choice for me. Flash is interesting, but I love playing long games, I would love to play a U control deck (Slaver seems to be the best for now).

 

play U/r phid.  also....do you just reject the color green on principle or do you not like playing swarm decks?  cus gat doesn't really play much like a "green deck" it plays 4-5 green cards and some sideboard options.  calling gat a green deck is like calling keeper a red deck cus it plays fire/ice or a white deck cus it uses angels to kill.

[breed]

Oh yes, U/r Phidian seems a really funny deck, I will try it! Ophidians are so sexy!

 

About GAT: I played it 1/2 times just for testing, well I don't like it, I know that's not a "green deck". The problem is that GAT is not a real control deck, you may win really quickly with Dryads. I'm searching for a real control deck, where you will play 10/15 turns before winning. So, U/r Phidian will be tested.

 

[Zherbus]

See my thread in the Adept Chronicles format. I did real well with a modern 4cControl deck of my own design. This was before the Gush unrestrictions and I am toying with other lists, but realistically it's not good to be stuck between a rock (GaT) and a hardplace (Flash). I'm doing well by playing GaT (basically, I am running 100% of what Rich Shay is because he and I share playstyles) but I've done really well with the Bob/Counterbalance build (also found in that thread).

The 4cControl list I have together is decent. It looks like the list in that thread, but with random stuff like 1 Trinisphere and Burning Wish and Extirpate. Good luck.

[breed]

@Zherbus: thanks for the thread in Adept Chronicles! Really good, I have read your report also. I will take some of your ideas if you don't mind.

 

[EKM_Ichorid]

I started playing with a list a few days ago. Here's what I've got:



// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Tundra
    3  Volcanic Island
    4  City of Brass
    4  Underground Sea
    1  Library of Alexandria

// Creatures
    3  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    3  Dimir Cutpurse

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    2  Merchant Scroll
    3  Duress
    1  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Brainstorm
    3  Mana Drain
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Mox Emerald
    2  Mind Twist
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Extirpate
    1  Chain of Vapor
    2  Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Duress
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Misdirection
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Extirpate
SB: 2  Massacre
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Empty the Warrens
SB: 1  Aura Blast

The deck has a pretty good card advantage engine through Cutpurse, which is a bomb. I have a decent toolbox through Cunning Wish and has a nice control package. The only problem I've found is dealing with stuff that reaches play, but I've been experimenting with a few removal packages. Twist is a nice bomb, and EtW seems like a good finisher in the testing thus far.

[Ufactor]

4CC (Aka. keeper) Did evolve alot after GAT was nerfed away, so it's unfair to say that keeper would still get smashed by GAT - That said, i really don't think keeper can become tier1 right now, Flash is likely too fast for keeper to reliably keep up with it...and GAT still has a monstrous draw-engine which i doubt good ol' scrying can keep up with.

This implies that that Gush>>>Scrying, which is not the case.  The reason that Gush is worth playing is not because it functions as a draw engine [which it does poorly (It really only nets one card per Gush.)], but because it is a mana engine.  That is to say, once Fastbond is out, you can chain Gush into Brainstorm/Opt,  into more lands, into Merchant Scroll, into more Gushes - all virtually for free.

Skeletal Scrying will almost always net more cards, but comes online waaay later in the game. Scrying ends up being the superior card provided that you can live long enough to use it.  Furthermore, because it's so compact, it allows you to run more utility in the rest of the deck.  Getting into the mid-game and blowing up your hand size means cheap answers - boatloads of them!  Maxing out on copies of Force of Will, and Mana Drain, and Duress, and Disrupt, and Daze, and Red Elemental Blast, and Misdirection, and Cunning Wishes to get more of the above, plus Counterbalance, and then vanilla Counterspell, if you have room, is just key to winning those beginning battles.

[breed]

First, thanks for all answers, I'm happy to see that they are still some Control fans. Next, my current deck list with some explanations:

// Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

// Disrupt
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Duress

// Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confident

// Bombs
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance

// Tutors
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// Kill
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gorilla Shaman

// Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

1 Library of Alexandria
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

// Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Disenchant
1 Coffin Purge

So, the main addition to the deck is Dark Confident. I thinks that it's one of the best way to get card advantage. Also playing 3 CotV and 3 Duress helps a lot against Combo (Flash is indeed the most used combo deck). I keep a toolbox using 2 Cunning Wish, with a lot of utility cards like Fire/Ice, Sword and so on. Main deck, I don't use Skeletal but I can use it after a Wish.

The kill is no more Decree, I use Tinker/Platz or Tinker/DSC. I can also kill using Confident. I'm thinking about removing DSC, but I'm not sure. Maybe playing some Sword to Plowshares maindeck will be usefull to remove a Confident where I'm low in life. Also I play Crucible as I really love this card.

Any constructive comments are appreciated.

About my metagame: some rogue creatures decks, combo, goblins, CS. Not so much Fish or Stacks.

[zeus-online]

4CC (Aka. keeper) Did evolve alot after GAT was nerfed away, so it's unfair to say that keeper would still get smashed by GAT - That said, i really don't think keeper can become tier1 right now, Flash is likely too fast for keeper to reliably keep up with it...and GAT still has a monstrous draw-engine which i doubt good ol' scrying can keep up with.

This implies that that Gush>>>Scrying, which is not the case.  The reason that Gush is worth playing is not because it functions as a draw engine [which it does poorly (It really only nets one card per Gush.)], but because it is a mana engine.  That is to say, once Fastbond is out, you can chain Gush into Brainstorm/Opt,  into more lands, into Merchant Scroll, into more Gushes - all virtually for free.

But you're wrong, gush is definetly better then skeletal scrying, while it's true that skeletal scrying often nets more cards then Gush, ancestral recall, FoF etc... It's also slower, more situational, requires more mana and is therefore less efficient.

You don't judge cards based on their effects, if that was the case we'd all be playing opportunity and stroke of genius...Gush is free, and chains nicely into more card-draw and disruption which prevents keeper from getting the scrying engine up.

Sure, late game i'd rather have scrying then gush, but it might not really matter at that point, if the gush deck is far ahead i will not be able to resolve a scrying, or have already lost to a dryad or 'Tog.

/Zeus

[Zherbus]

Gush, as a draw engine, is pretty modest.

For the sake of arguement, in a deck with 22 lands, 4 DRAW, and 34 Eager Cadets, the clear BEST draw spell is Skeletal Scrying.

In a deck with 22 land, 4 DRAW, 6 men that benefit from deck momentum*, 10 counterspells, and 18 cantrip effects, Gush is the better draw engine because it provides more momentum. GaT is closest to this model.

All the above goes to show is that Gush can't just be put into any deck that can't capitalize on that momentum. Dryad and Psychatog obviously benefit as well as Storm-based spells. Those card fit a pro-active strategy, therefore Gush fits only those decks as a core engine. Skeletal Scrying is best compared to Thirst for Knowledge, which is a bit more conditional and with less potential... but a better bargain at the 3cc price point.

On another note, Dark Confidant just shouldn't be a consideration right now. It's one card per turn. It takes you through your opponents turn, then to your upkeep in order to get your 2 mainphase mana and 1 card investment back. One turn is way too much to afford the opponent in Vintage right now.

*Deck momentum is something you should look up if you don't know it already.

[zeus-online]

It's pretty obvious that you can't just stick gush into any random deck you come across and expect it to work - But i still stand by what i said, Gush is just far more powerful than scrying.

Gush has been used in various deck, which all used the drawback as an advantage, examples:

Super Gro - Old, old extended, used winter orbs and gush to keep the opponent from untapping while drawing cards and ensuring land-drops.
Stasis - To keep the lock intact for many turns, potentially, and often, forever.
Turboland - with horn of greed and 4 exploration gush was the optimal drawer

While scrying has only been used as a "fair" and "good" card-drawer in various decks including 4cControl and various Type2 and block constructed black control decks.

I'm not saying that scrying is a bad card, just pointing out that gush is far more powerfull and abuseable.

Heck i'd love to play keeper again, but the meta just isn't right for it, atleast that is my opinion until the opposite has been proven.

/Zeus

Pre-edit: I think Thirst for knowledge is superior to scrying in many ways. Yet i can't see that card being playable in a keeperish deck, and once you hit 4 mana, scrying gets better then thirst...Thirst is superior in any deck where it helps the decks strategy such as bomberman and control slaver.

[Zherbus]

Heck i'd love to play keeper again, but the meta just isn't right for it, atleast that is my opinion until the opposite has been proven.

For the most part, any collection of 60 cards just isn't right for this metagame. People need to do drastic stuff, not unlike GP: Columbus, to make things close to playable.

[zeus-online]

Heck i'd love to play keeper again, but the meta just isn't right for it, atleast that is my opinion until the opposite has been proven.

For the most part, any collection of 60 cards just isn't right for this metagame. People need to do drastic stuff, not unlike GP: Columbus, to make things close to playable.

That is true for most formats though...especially the eternal formats....although it's probably more true right now then ever before.

/Zeus

[limitedwhole]

Keeper can beat and could beat gro.  Notice how none of thelists back then ran
4 Disrupt
2 Red Elemental Blast (main)

Gro want's to use all it's mana every turn.  It has fundamental plays like Brainstorm into Duress, etc.  Disrupt can ruin their day, countering a key spell but even if it doesn't work it slows them down by cutting them off from a key spell.  They are much slower when you play disrupt.  Red Blast main is obvious and one wonders why in the past this wasn't standard in a field of gro.  Interdict is very powerful against them.  It prevents them from getting the second mana for gush.

Gro kills you over several turns so the dryad effectively does nothing until you are dead.  You can expect it to take 3-5 turns to kill you with a dryad.  Each gorilla shaman you play to chump block buys you additional turns.  Gro is definately beatable.  Attack its mana base and slow it down. Pithing Needle is deadly.  remember they rely on brainstorm as a mana source and gush as a mana source.  Countering these cards just kills them.  you can also counter early moxen before you get a shaman to slow them down.

[deivit]

 Nice to see that there is still people worried about pure control. As an ex-keeper player, I really think that the current GAT metagame gives enough turns to establish board control. In this context I would like to see whether adapted Isochron Scepter builds can be competitive now. I am not refering to boring Orim chants decks, but solid control decks with 3xcunning wish maindeck and a complete instant toolbox. IMO is perhaps the most interesting path to go in keeper right now.

Thanks for the thread!