[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays -- A Golden Age of Vintage?

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15040.html

Blurb:
The recent Vintage Mega-Weekend in Chicago shook the metagame like a Polaroid picture. The Little Lhurgoyf That Could, scourge of many a tournament, finally made its presence felt in the most broken format. Stephen brings us an exhaustive play-by-play of his own tournament performance, and ruminates on the Vintage metagame as it currently stands. Are we entering a Golden Age?

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Doug Linn said it well:

I decided against Tarmogoyf for GAT decks. Here's why:

When everything is going right, I'd rather have Dryad, since I can make it huge and Berserk it over and eat your lunch. It can come down on a Yawgmoth's Will turn and be 12/12 when I Time Walk. That's neat.

When everything is going okay and I land the creature midgame, I'd rather have Dryad since I'll still be planning on a huge Will turn, and excepting that, I can count on Merchant Scroll into Gush getting me at least two counters and probably more. A Tarmogoyf will be 4/5 or 5/6, but Dryads can get that size or bigger in any case.

When things are going awfully and I'm ripping from the top, Tarmogoyf is stronger since it has plenty of power off the bat.

I don't want to build my decks with the thought in mind that things are going to go awfully and I need to sacrifice a dynamite synergistic d00d for one that's better when things go badly.

This thinking doesn't take into consideration splits like 2 dryad/ 2 tarmistake, however.

Hes totally right, and its nice to see then even when a little tardy to the party Meandeck realizes (two SCG p9 events later) that Quirion Dryad is wrong for GAT. Too bad they replaced it with a card thats WORSE for GAT.

Im not going to go into depth explaining things Doug already eloquently detailed but I will finish my post with this . . .

Tarmogoyf in fish: acceptable!
Tarmogoyf in combo: LAZY!

-Owen

[Smmenen]

Wait a second - I never said that Dryad was wrong for GAT. 

[zeus-online]

So...what about good ol' tog? Is he better or worse then goyf? I'm thinking he's better since:
Gush feeds him ridiculously.
He's better for the combo.
He pitches...Which happens (happened...as i don't play right now) frequently for me anyways.

/Zeus

[Jo84]

Well, that depends much about what kinds of deck you face and what´s your style of play.
In the actual meta you need more threats I think as many decks pack in strategies to stop you (either attack your Quirion Dryad with discard or removal (fishes in my meta play 4 Lavamancer, 4 Swords, 4 Explosives), stop your gush-combo with spheres or just play that much aggro, that they either take you on too low life to abuse fastbond anymore or can block your dryad long enough to find another solution).
So there are two possible creatures to do this job. The problem above is mostly, that you have to get your threat onto the table as fast as possible. If you can´t Quirion Dryad you need another creature, that you can cast early in the game.
Psychatog and Tarmogoyf are both possible, but:
Tog can kill your opponent in the early game, when your graveyard is full.
Tarmogoyf can kill your opponent in the early game, when their are many cards in both graveyards.

Tog eats your graveyard, if you need him as a blocker and want to keep him alive.
Goyf can take up to 5 Damage a turn, without dieing and you still have the option to finish the opponent off with a topdecked Yawgmoth's Will.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I would prefer Empty the Warrens to Dryad or Goyf in almost any scenario.

In the early game it WAY better because its not an 0/1 or 1/1, you can getaway with storming up to 2-3 and get the job done.

In the mid-game its just as good but uncounterable so its certainly better there, also in all these scenarios if you happen to be losing Warrens can bail you out.

In the late game or when your combo-ing Warrens is FAR SUPERIOR to Goyf and Dryad.

It seems pretty cut and dry in my eyes, id rather play 3 Warrens than 3 Goyf, and to be honest if I had to play Tarmogoyf as my win condition in a deck thats wins on turn 4-5-6 id rather just play another deck.

- Owen

[The Demon]

I would prefer Empty the Warrens to Dryad or Goyf in almost any scenario.

In the early game it WAY better because its not an 0/1 or 1/1, you can getaway with storming up to 2-3 and get the job done.

In the mid-game its just as good but uncounterable so its certainly better there, also in all these scenarios if you happen to be losing Warrens can bail you out.

In the late game or when your combo-ing Warrens is FAR SUPERIOR to Goyf and Dryad.

It seems pretty cut and dry in my eyes, id rather play 3 Warrens than 3 Goyf, and to be honest if I had to play Tarmogoyf as my win condition in a deck thats wins on turn 4-5-6 id rather just play another deck.

- Owen

While I agree with you on this, don't you think that ETW losses a little bit of power now that there are more stifle effects that are being played in quite some time?

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Sure sure, anything both those green guys is what I was trying to get at, 1-2 Warrens is still totally fine. Id suggest 2 Warrens 1 DSC+1Tinker.

[The Demon]

Sure sure, anything both those green guys is what I was trying to get at, 1-2 Warrens is still totally fine. Id suggest 2 Warrens 1 DSC+1Tinker.

That seems fair, however then you run the risk of just getting crushed by echoing truth.  Is it possible that you DO need a mix of creatures and storm elements?

[Jo84]

I really disagree with you, Owen.

Goyf is NEVER 0/1 in GAT. Dryad normally doesn´t stay 1/1 and even if this is the case, then you aren´t anyhow in the situation to fire off an Empty for 2 or 3.

The fact that Empty is uncounterable is really irrelevant as Echoing Truth handles it pretty well or some critters can handle your goblins pretty well. A well-grown Dryad or a big Goyf are much harder to kill, if you bounce them, they come back. The can be countered, but they can´t be duressed.

In the late-game when you are comboing out it´s really pointless if you got EtW for 1000 or a 50/25 Trampe Dryad or a bunch of 4/5 Goofies that finish your opponent off in a time walk turn.

Tinker is really really really bad in GAT, look how many Artefacts you play in GAT.

Running Dryads + Storm Elements isn´t really clever as both are vulnerable to the same kind of hate. Dryads are small if you can prevent the GAT player from playing too many spells AND therefore he cannot creature adequate storm count for threatening Empty either.
Goyf is somehow independent. Of course, you need something in your graveyard, but 1 fetchland + 1 instant + 1 duress or scroll and you are fine. Also note, that your opponents graveyard feeds it as well, so it´s less vulnerable to strategies, that adress the Gush-engine and therefore a fine addition to GAT.

[Tin_Mox5831]

IMHO, underlying cause of this discussion (Tarmogoyf vs. Dryad vs. ETW vs. Tinker-DSC) is the fact that GAT is one of the most flexible decks in the history of this format, if not the entire game. It's a deck that assumes the role it's pilot applies to it. If you're constantly pushing the envelope and looking for the flashy combo turn (I'm looking right at you, Paul!) then there's no arguing against at least one storm-based win condition. On the other hand, GAT also has more countermagic in hand after the first couple of turns than any other deck around, which leads some players to treat GAT like a true control deck. For those of us who heartily enjoy responding to the question "Cards in hand?" with a resounding "7",  Quirion Dryad is a great choice, as it increases your clock just for doing the one thing you were going to do anyway: Counter spells and play draw/digging spells. However, the one thing that sets GAT apart from most of the field is it's ability to change roles mid-game almost effortlessly. In a format where this type of adaptability is often rewarded, Tarmogoyf offers a win condition that does a great job of inhabiting the middle ground between the two mindsets described earlier. It's for that reason that I believe Tarmogoyf, while not always the optimal win condition, will always be worth consideration in GAT.

Hope it made some sense, I'm all doped up on turkey!

Peace,
Dave

[OwenTheEnchanter]

That seems fair, however then you run the risk of just getting crushed by echoing truth.

The fact that Empty is uncounterable is really irrelevant as Echoing Truth handles it pretty well

You guys cant be serious? Force of Will, Duress, Thoughtseize, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Mana Drain, and THEY ONLY PLAY ONE ECHOING TRUTH.

Tinker is really really really bad in GAT, look how many Artefacts you play in GAT.

Who cares? You play Tinker and you win, im fine waiting, why wouldn't you be?

Also GAT has the most insane draw and dig than any other deck, you guys act like youll never be able to find a Mox for your Tinker or an answer to their 1 out if they happen to draw/tutor for it.

- Owen

[Spacebalzz]

[rant]

Ok, let me get this straight.  The argument thats going on here originated with discussion of Goyf vs. Dryad in GAT, and has evolved to Goyf/Dryad/Tog vs. ETW/Tinker-DSC as the more powerful win condition.  So in essence, we're really just discussing which is the better Gush-deck--GAT or Empty-Gush.  This may be a discussion that merits its own thread.  Perhaps someone with lots of time could do a VS matchup of the two decks

Owen:

I do not agree with your point about Echoing Truth where you stated:

You guys cant be serious?  Force of Will, Duress, Thoughtseize, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Mana Drain, and THEY ONLY PLAY ONE ECHOING TRUTH.

I don't think your rhetoric here really addresses the point at hand which is Echoing Truth AND Stifle effects.  With the emergence of TK Deeznauts, packing 4 Stifles, 1 ET and a full counter-suite, do you still believe that ETW is the far superior win condition?  Stifle doesn't hurt Dryad/Goyf/Tog and ET (mentioned before by someone) only returns one of these threats to your hand to be played again.  You note that FOW, Thoughtseize, Drain, Pyro, REB and Duress are your answers the the threat of ET, but forgot to realize that your opponent is likely playing those same disruptive spells as well.  Lastly, with the post-board addition of Pyroclasm to many decks, you're looking at another one or two threats to your Goblin Tokens.

Also, with regards to your thoughts on Tinker>DSC in GAT, I disagree.  It's a great win condition, but not the best for GAT's low artifact count.  You state:

Who cares? You play Tinker and you win, im fine waiting, why wouldn't you be?

Here I must ask you if YOU are being serious.  You really think you can afford to wait to play Tinker with all the disruption you just mentioned?  I feel you've nullified your own point here because remember YOU ONLY PLAY ONE TINKER.

In the end, I feel like you're not arguing about the modification of GAT, but rather the complete change to another archetype, Empty-Gush.  I mean, if you're removing the "growable" creatures (togs and dryads) you're really not playing GAT are you?

[/rant]

-Matt

[Tin_Mox5831]

So much for trying to defuse the situation! 

I can see merits to all of the win conditions discussed above, and just keep in mind guys: You might not be quite right. I'm certainly not all the time. Sometimes the only way to solve a tough problem is by using a fresh set of eyes. I don't think we have to sink to sarcasm and snarky comments at each other. And for the record, I say play Tarpan. You can't beat that guy.

Now let's sing Kum-By-Ya and make some S'mores!   

Later,
Dave

[Inflex]

I don't think your rhetoric here really addresses the point at hand which is Echoing Truth AND Stifle effects.  With the emergence of TK Deeznauts, packing 4 Stifles, 1 ET and a full counter-suite, do you still believe that ETW is the far superior win condition?  Stifle doesn't hurt Dryad/Goyf/Tog and ET (mentioned before by someone) only returns one of these threats to your hand to be played again.  You note that FOW, Thoughtseize, Drain, Pyro, REB and Duress are your answers the the threat of ET, but forgot to realize that your opponent is likely playing those same disruptive spells as well.  Lastly, with the post-board addition of Pyroclasm to many decks, you're looking at another one or two threats to your Goblin Tokens.

Deez Nauts runs zero Echoing Truth according to the latest SCG lists. And Stifle is hardly the ideal solution to ETW for a number of reasons. It leaves behind a pair of chump blockers, it can be Duressed at any point prior to going off with ETW, and it answers only a single casting, hardly fatal when the Gush player has access to 1 or 2 more in addition to replaying with Yawgmoth's Will and Regrowth as Owen is talking about.

[Moxlotus]

With the number of Spheres running around ETW might be a tough card to play for any meaningful amount.  Tarmagoofy comes down and ignores half of the spheres that are played and doesn't need anything else to beat down except having people play cards (like that's a drawback).  GWS had decks that beat ETW.  We had decks that beat Dryad.  We did not have decks that beat Goofy consistantly.  The 2 mana, nonartifact, 3/4 to 4/5 to 5/6 turn 1 or 2 monster single handedly beat me in two matches at SCG and knocked my ass out.  Tarmagoofy can sit there and eat juggernauts even.  Goofy destroyed 8sphere.meta before it even formed.  The impact of Goyf in type 1 cannot be overstimated at all.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Sorry 

- Owen

Owen,
Yes, you're good at Magic. This means, among other things, that what appears to you right away to be a bad idea might seem to another person to be a fine idea. There's nothing wrong with thinking that someone else's idea is bad. That's fine. The problem, Owen, is how you handle it. If you make a worthless post like this which serves no purpose other than insulting fellow Vintage players who are trying their best to improve, then it would be better if you didn't make the post in the first place. This post neither contributes to the community nor gives anyone any chance to improve.

What would be a far more useful post would be one in which you explain why an idea is bad. This can be done without being condescending or sarcastic. And that post would actually be helpful to the community. I hope that your future posts will show more patience and understanding than this.

Verbal warning.

--Rich Shay