Mr. Gaddock goes trio [list Updated]

[Guli]

*UPDATES* 4/11/07
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Orim's Chant has been added to the arsenal. Daze is out,Force is out, Spell Snare is in. I need maximal synergy in the deck.

I have lowered the count of Teeg because of Orim's Chant. Teeg is mainly in here to shut down storm/combo and Chant can do that job untill/while Teeg hits with/without chant/vial.

I added 1 Island to strengthen the mana base. Removed 1 Tundra.

Sideboard: Added 4 force of will, when playing flash Teeg doesn't do a lot other than stop opposing forces. I can side in Force and side out Teeg.

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*UPDATES* 2/11/07
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Decided to play with 8 counter's. To slightly improve early game and to to have solid answer's against 2cc problems (drain,oath,flash,scroll,...)

+4 Daze !!
+4 Spell Snare !! (Testing FORCE OF WILL again now)

Had to make room and add/cut some cards but generally it stayed the same. Except for the sideboard. I added 4 blue Leylines and Waterfront Bouncers and also echo truth. The only sad thing is the Force of Will dilemma.


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*UPDATES*

I added a new draw engine and removed the Ninja's. Thirst for Knowledge is another good way to filter improve your hand and dig in deck like brainstorm does. And it gives card advantage as well. The creature base is simpel. 16 in total 4 of each. I want to see all 4 at least 1 time and if not i ll try to dig and cycle until i do. I also removed sacred ground and added Kataki is sideboard. Another important change is the 2 equipments i added. Jitte and Sword fire/ice are both very nice if you are playing a deck that can evade (aven) and ensure that your creatures survive.
changes:
+4 TFK
+1 Jitte
+1 sword fire/ice
NOTE: I am also testing mystical and enlightened tutor and aether spellbomb and an extra swords to plow. These are 4 cards in total. I am trying it without force of will (don't shoot me). But i realize that it might be a bad thing to cut force.
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All right, i have waited a fair amount of time to post something of my new aggro-control. I also waited for someone to post about Gaddock teeg. Haven't seen many posts about this guy.
I think it is important to explain my starting position when approaching the idea. It is the creature base that is key here.

Gaddock Teeg (gush,tendrils,warrens,massacre,force,misd,smokestack,gifts,FoF,chalice,EE,skeletal scr,...)
Meddling Mage (Everything: experience and skill help a lot)
Aven Mindcensor (flash,scroll,fetches,tutors,tinker,trinket,... basically stops opponent in finding answers)

These creatures have some similar functions in the idea. They disrupt instantly. That is speed. They protect one another and they protect you. They are powerful alone and more powerful with 2 and when there is a trio at the table you can call it a solid semi-lock.

From my experience in playing and playing against combo they don't really have that many answers to an annoying mage/aven/teeg. In fact if the disruption from the aggro player is good the combo player usually gets 1 shot and its mostly bounce and specifically its chain of vapor or echo T. So it is most likely going to be a blue removal spell before making the kill. So how can this kind of removal be stopped by the aggro player?

Meddling Mage can provide the protection alongside a teeg and seal a game. However this will require two 2cc drops and frankly i think that is too slow. The answer to the removal must be a 1cc spell AND it has to be multifunctional and do other things as well besides protecting your teeg/mage/aven..

The first card that will help solving the problem of bounce is Aether Vial. It will also serve as mana AND make your bombs uncounterable which can be huge.
Now i know a lot of people are skeptical about a lot of things. So i wanna pre-explain a bit more before i write some other answers. If you would have a permanent that would have an activated ability that would stop your trio from being targeted or becoming bounced that would make your trio really effective in my opinion. You don't want to lose your creatures. You are relying on their disruptive powers and you NEED them to survive and win the game.

Another argument i have to include 1 drops that protect ur bombs is Vial. Vial is really good but without 1 drops i find it a bit sad. I have selected the next to 1 drops in a 3-3 formula. This means 10 slots are being dedicated to the protection of the trio.

There are not a lot of draw/search options for a tight aggro control who wants to keep/protect the cards being casted. Another reason to add 1 drops is to be able to use ninja. It is important to have at least some way of refilling your hand. And occasionally a mage is bounced to reuse it and name something else.

I threw in 4 swords i find them most useful.

The List

// Lands/Mana

    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    2 Savannah
    2 Windswept Heath
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus

// Trio

    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Meddling Mage

// Protection Squad

    4 AEther Vial
    4 Sylvan Safekeeper

// Removal/Disruption/draw

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Orim's Chant
    4 Spell Snare
     3 Sower of Temptation
 
// Random cuteness

    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall

// Sideboard

SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Kataki
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 4 Leyline of Singularity

[Shock Wave]

It hurts to see you not running Force of Will in a deck that supports blue. Why are you running Mother of Runes and Sylvan Safekeeper? What prevalent removal are you planning on protecting your creatures from?

Try this:

- 3 Mother of Runes
- 3 Safekeeper
- 1 Vial

+ 4 FoW
+ 3 Sage of Epityr

It's not as important to start drawing cards with Ninja as it is to disrupt your opponent. Mother and Safekeeper don't do anything useful, while Sage at least shapes your draws and has good bounce synergy. It also brings up your blue card count.

[Khahan]

I don't understand  not including force. This deck looks like it rolls over on turns 1-2 which often is enough to set you back and let combo win.  An early magus of the moon or crucible/waste shuts it down. Your only out is Aether vial...which your opponent can easily force or null rod. 

Run 4x FoW.  Figure even if you have 1 in your opening hand and use it. That leaves 3 in your deck if/when gaddock comes down on turn 2 for you.  You might draw 1 more, maybe 2 the rest of the game if its a long game. And, if your gaddock is removed/bounced, you get to use it.  Remember, force is only shut down when gaddock is in play. No point neutering your early game to save that % chance you have  1 or maybe 2 dead cards in hand in a longer game.

[Guli]

I expected the force argument. My counter argument is that it doesnt work with teeg. This deck opts to cast a very fast Teeg, Mage or Aven and have an answer against removal and/or bounce. Another thing i what you already pointed out. The blue card count. This is a white aggro control with some blue and green splash. The reason for blue is  primarily meddling mage. Adding meddling mage does not make this deck a blue based deck. Brainstorm is a nice card that digs and improves the card quality. Turn 2 you want to have one of the trio AND one of the protectors on the board. That is the goal.
I used Spell Snare instead of daze and it worked very nicely. I might change it back in the future. However daze is effective that turn 1 and 2 and basicly those are the turns when I am the weakest. Once i get some creatures out its going to be very hard to remove them while at the same time the game will slip away from opponent.

So when you remove the 6 1 drops and play with 3 vial you are totally changing the idea. We could open another thread and discuss it I can see it work. But I am trying to show people how effective it is to have a safekeeper or mother on the board next to a teeg. That alone might be enough to win the game. It is not a hardcore lock but it will but the time to eventually win. Teeg doesn't stop flash but mage and aven do. Imagine that situation.

Turn 1 tropical safekeeper followed by a mage/aven stopping flash means huge problems for the combo player. The trio base is meant to stop the hardcore vintage kill and speed. The 'force of will' is kinda integrated in my trio base. I could still try to do something like

+4 force (even with teeg stil strong)
-1 mother
-1 vial
-1 teeg
-1 aven

21 blue force included. I ll test it and see if there is enough pitch without making important sacrifices. I am really happy when i play Brainstorm. Daze or Ninja could be used as pitch sure but why not just counter with Daze and play a teeg or aven next turn?

Force DOES lose you 2 cards even thought well worth it this deck really wants to use all the cards in hand. ninja/brainstorm/daze could be pitched but you do NOT want to pitch mage. That is why i like daze. Its not force but it does buy that little time you need to get a soft lock.

[BruiZar]

The point of this deck is to disrupt the opponents ability to play cards or to ruin the effect of their spells.

Sylvan Safekeeper, AEther Vial and Sage of Epityr don't do any of those tasks.

Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Gorilla Shaman, Strip Mine/Wasteland, Stifle, Choke, Azorius Guildmage, Bind, Damping Matrix, Suppresion Field, Trickbind, Voidslime, Voidstone Gargoyle (ahum) and Orim's Chant do

This deck needs less filler cards and more bombs

[LordHomerCat]

Now seriously, Voidslime?  Voidstone Gargoyle? Bind?   None of those cards is even remotely playable, while Aether Vial is a terrific card that frees up your mana and allows you to toss out uncounterable Mage's and Gaddock Teeg's.  If you are going to make suggestions, be serious, that post is basically worthless.

  I agree that Safekeeper and Mom seem really awful, since if you cast that guy and just try to cast Mage or Gaddock they are likely to just counter the real creature and you are left with a useless 1/1.  You should definitely be running Force, since they are likely to just counter your one real creature and then do whatever they want because your Gaddock didn't resolve.  Who cares if your forces dont work under Gaddock Teeg, Will is basically the only card you want to counter when he's on the table anyway.

[Guli]

Now seriously, Voidslime?  Voidstone Gargoyle? Bind?   None of those cards is even remotely playable, while Aether Vial is a terrific card that frees up your mana and allows you to toss out uncounterable Mage's and Gaddock Teeg's.  If you are going to make suggestions, be serious, that post is basically worthless.

  I agree that Safekeeper and Mom seem really awful, since if you cast that guy and just try to cast Mage or Gaddock they are likely to just counter the real creature and you are left with a useless 1/1.  You should definitely be running Force, since they are likely to just counter your one real creature and then do whatever they want because your Gaddock didn't resolve.  Who cares if your forces dont work under Gaddock Teeg, Will is basically the only card you want to counter when he's on the table anyway.

I can definitely see the logic in that. Once the teeg is on the board it is no big deal anymore that your own forces shuts down but that doesn't mean the teeg and mage should be left unprotected. Vial gets countered every time i play it. And if it isn't it usually means they do not have a counter spell. They have a choice, either counter the vial and hope they can counter the teeg or mage as well. Or let vial pass and never be able to counter any creature again. Mind games. That is great stuff. Vial is amazing with mage/teeg/aven

I know mother of runes looks passive and defensive. However an active mother does have great benefits. It stops removals like stp and reb. It can block a dryad or any big creature without trample. You can always name cunning wish with mage to stop berserk and fend of the dryad with MoR.

An active mother with teeg is not a good situation for storm decks. Let's make that clear. And every turn the problem gets worse with potential mages and avens. I removed the mother from main deck because i believe safekeeper is a bit more flexible. It instantly (speed) gives your creatures protection as well and it can attack. However, there are situations were mother would be safer/better. I chose for speed and functionality. Safekeeper does the job required.

It is not like im protecting tarms, negators or grunts. I am trying to protect important powerful T1 hosers. I am convinced that the protection is well worth the 7-10 slots. I don't need more bombs i need to be able to keep my bombs alive.

The point of the deck?

Cast that teeg/mage/aven as fast as possible and keep them alive. That is the quick explanation. Be aware, if you misname a mage don't blame the deck. Take your time analyse the information you received until the point mage is coming down. If you really don't know (almost impossible) and you really need to play then name something like flash or tendrils or Merchant scroll. Turn 1 you want to drop vial or safekeeper with force or/and daze backup. Or if u have a mox or lotus things can go faster.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I play a very similar deck, in fact I think I remember playing against you on MWS.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

This one little card stops/slows Welding/Crucibles, Flash, Ichorid, and opposing aggro.  I'd rather see a Samurai in my opening hand than any creature but Gaddock Teeg.

Also, Waterfront Bouncer does very cute things against GAT, Flash, random Tinkers.

I'm not sure why you run Sacred Ground?  I consider Magus of the Moon more of a threat to my manabase than Crucible+Waste/Strip.  Especially with Vials?  At least Kataki/Energy Flux also shut down random Workshop Aggro.

[Guli]

I made some changes and modified the first opener post.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Your sideboard against the notion of artifacts is overkill.  The new additions to Stax don't help one bit against you.  Energy Flux is brutal, but hard to get out.  Kataki is a solid speed bump but dies against the hate they *will* bring in to kill your creatures.  I'd run 1 Kataki and 2 Flux because 2 Flux in your opening hand is nowhere near as good as Flux + Kataki, but you'd rather topdeck a Flux.

Also, I'd seriously seriously consider Samurais.  Bringing in 3-4 3/3's will have a huge impact on the aggro mirror and they do a lot of splash damage against Ichorid and Flash. 

Also, what are the seals for?  Oath of Druids?  Waterfront Bouncer is at least active in the Flash and GAT matchups.  If they're against Stax, just use those slots for 2x Kataki and a third Energy Flux.  3 StP + 3 Gilded Drake is already way overkill vs. Oath.

[Guli]

Samurai of the Pale Curtain
I ve tried it, we talked about it. The thing is it has 2 white in its casting cost. With an active vial i don't see any problem but i can't hope for a vial every game. Yes he is good against stax and flash but not that great against aggro really. There are grunts and tarms out there. with bigger bodies. I really like his effect but i am running a 3 color deck with a tight mana base. I already changed the deck adding force like suggested and to be honost it has its ups and downs. There is no such things as 'playing with blue means +4 force of will'. The truth is i had many situations i couldn't cast it because of teeg and i didn't need force either. In the opening hand force was FORCE. Like it should be. But not always enough and not always in your opening hand. Does force make this deck better? Because that is the question I have to ask myself when following advise. I already knew what i was doing when NOT adding force to the deck.

Is it mostly because of the turn 0 respond ability? Then i can add the blue leyline to maindeck as well to stop flash. I want cast the teeg turn 2-3. This means i have to play my force turn 0 or turn 1-2. And i have to have a pitch-able card during those early turns.

I want to use blue sources and the price i have to pay for that is i have to add Force because otherwise i do not have a viable deck? Force is just a card guys. Yes it has tremendous value and power in vintage. That is one of the reasons i am building a deck with teeg.

Force makes this deck better in some situations. When you have that perfect hand with the pitchable card and a well timed teeg. This means it is situational for this deck. In some situations you are sitting there with force and can't do anything with it. Maybe i will go back to spell snare to have additional answers vs cards like drain,scroll,chalice@1,flash,demonic,walk,oath,pyroclasm,bears with abilities (mage,confi,grunt,kataki,...),...

I would like to see more feedback. I don't think the idea is bad. This is a real solid fish build that could use more tweaking.

[Everrid1234]

I'm sorry but this deck definitely is NOT a fish deck.

It lacks a lot of disruption, especially in the early turns. This was said in the earlier comments to the original post.
Your draw engine is expensive, your deck has only has 4 FoW to hinder the opponent (no Daze, no Duress, no Thoughtseize), it lets combo go off relatively easy (assuming you don't have Mindcensor in play) since you don't run Chalice or Null Rod.
Ok, Gaddock keeps Tendrils and Empty from play, this is nice.

Cards like Jitte/Sword in a T1 deck MAIN is wrong imo. Your deck depends on the creatures, packing things like Vial, Sword/Jitte and Safekeeper shows that you focus too much on these 12 creatures... Safekeeper has no function itself. He is sometimes just a wasted card. 1 Sword and 1 Jitte is too random. You need a combination of a lot of cards to make your deck effective. You want to drop Vial early, ok, but on how many counters you want to set it when you have a censor in hand? to 3? maybe you get Meddling to hand next turn. Vial is a really bad topdeck.
It is imo only viable in a Gobbo or Standstill-deck. Your deck's densitiy of creatures isn't high enough to make Vial's including viable.
What I want to say: Your deck's support of the 12 creatures is very strong but the density of REAL threats is not high enough. You need to set up a lot of turns before you have what you want (each creature of the trio, protected by safekeeper). I don't say that this case isn't a VERY strong position but i don't think you will get these circumstances regularly. Try to make your deck's cards work independant.

I would recommend (if you don't want to play UWb, which is just better imo):

Go for a high creature count with cc2, keep Vial, add more disruption:

add Daze
add Chalice of the Void
add Jotun Grunts or Tarmogoyf, drop Safekeepers, replace them by Waterfront bouncer
maybe add Stifle as a nice 1st turn-disruption

More constant draw, maybe 3 Ninja of the Deep Hours. This creature is the only constant draw for the UGW-combination. If you would add black for Confidant, your deck would just become a UWb Fish.....

So this would totally focus on creature-disruption

Chalice
Vial
FoW
Daze
Stifle
Grunt
Waterfront Bouncer
Gaddock
Meddling
Mindcensor
Ninja
Anc
Walk
maybe Thorn of Amethyst

[Guli]

I would like to talk about adding Sower of Temptation. Once i get him on the board, combined with my 'i keep my stuff alive' policy, he looks very strong. Especially if i can stop opponents counter spells with teeg and mage. That is how i win against oath btw. I either stop oath or make sure i have a teeg and mage naming mana drain and sadisticly stp or sower away the threat.



The effect is effective immediately and most of the times devastating. Improves match up versus Oath and GAT and naturally vs any aggro/fish.

I am not ashamed to change and go 180 degree with my idea's. But i think with Sower in i could get back Force. The reason is that Sower and Force are both more direct solutions. Force + Daze is strong disruption early turns and i didn't have a good way to combat big creatures that made it on the board (i had stp but thats it).

So instead of spell snare the force of will. I am also giving up on the TFK. To be honost i hardly have those 'extra useless cards' that i can cycle. I have to make every card count.

I will not make the change yet to the list but i will test this.
-3 TFK
+3 Sower of Temptation
-4 Spell Snare
+4 Force of Will

You know what would be cool? They made a walking control magic, now a walking force and this deck is complete. Gaddock spells non-creature :p

Guli

[Guli]

Another card that came to my mind is Orim's Chant. I have played with this card in the past and got good results with it. Orim has a lot functionality.

1. It can be a Time Walk. So it buys time for Vial and most importantly it strengthens your early turns.

2. It counters. Not directly ofcourse. A classic example is when opponent plays a Y Will you respond with Orim's Chant. Another not so obvious example is when you are countering something with your own Spell Snare or Force or whatever counter spell you are using you can protect your counter. So it will become some sort of counter in a counterwar.

3.It can be a Duress. It can be a vial. So you can get that mage or teeg in and close the game without worrying about a force or counter.



Ye he can  buy time against creatures but that is a bonus. A nice one of course but not that crucial to the game plan.

I find the latest additions to the deck very promising. Sower proves to be very very useful. Makes oath and gat decks cry. Aggro is less affected but still it is pretty hard to come back if you lose your Confidant or Grunt in a critical phase of the game. I want to finish my post with an in game example.

I have aven, teeg, safekeeper and lots of land. I put my vial to 4.
He can't win with storm, he can't bounce. Only thing that would save him is Pyroclasm but he doesn't run it. So he goes for the tinker plan.
He get the platinum with some brainstorm cuteness. (remember aven) I simply steal it.

Another example?
I am playing aggro. I steal something. He tries to remove my sower to get back what once was his. I have a safekeeper oops, sac land, he concedes.

Safekeeper + teeg = Tech
Safekeeper + Mage = Tech
Safekeeper + Aven = Tech
Safekeeper + Sower = Tech
Orim's Chant + Vial = Tech
Orim's Chant + Teeg = Tech
Orim's Chant + Mage = Tech
Orim's Chant + STP = Tech
Teeg/Mage (naming mana drain) + STP = Tech (vs gat, oath,..)
The list goes on.. A lot of synergy, interaction between the cards.

Note: I agree waterfront bouncer is a good card. But it is slow. I am not using creatures that need another turn to get the job done. And besides. I get the creature you just bounce it.

I have updated the list and i don't think it will change that much anymore. Always possible though.

Keep the feedback coming