[Disc]Bazaar Engine (edited name)

[Roat17]

After reading the article on Dragon vs. GAT, I realized for the first time how powerful Dragon can potentially be.  Or, at least how powerful it's draw engine is.  When Gush was unrestricted, the first thing most people did I assume is throw together a GAT list.  Those who didn't soon realized how powerful the engine was, and soon multiple Merchant Scrolls (also thanks to Gifts pre-restriction) and multiple copies of Gush have been at least tested in almost every deck that could possibly support them. 

If you haven't practiced with Gush Fastbond and Scroll, I suggest you do.  Not only is it some of the most fun you can have, but it allows you to understand the inner workings of the dreaded Gush engine.

Anyways, back to my mini-rant.  I recently read three different reports/articles all containing decks using Bazaar in some capacity.  The Dragon deck as I previously mentioned, enabling Dragons and Deep Analysis to get to the grave.  But then there were two decks in which Bazaar was less obvious.  Vromans deck (which I am sure a lot of you are familiar with) and the mono B deck that top 4'ed at the vintage championships.  Vroman's creation is a controlish prison style deck, while Dragon is a combo deck and the mono B was combo controllish, yet they all utilized Bazaar.  There are also many Stax variants which run Bazaar with great success due to Goblin Welder.  Then of course there is the dreaded Ichorid.

My point?

The same draw enabler/engine is used in multiple decks, each of which has different routes to victory.  I know in Vroman's thread about his deck he cites it as the best draw engine in the game.  I don't necessarily disagree, however I find it funny that of all the decks that utillize it, IMO Vroman's has the least synergy.  Is Bazaar good enough that decks that don't auto-include it should be testing it?  Is it too skill intensive for the average player? 

With the use of Crop Rotation perhaps, can Bazaar see it's way into decks like Flash, filtering out additional Hulks/Rectors/Flashes?  Are there decks could be abusing it that aren't?  Are there aspects of each deck that can somehow be combined?

[madmanmike25]

Is Bazaar good enough that decks that don't auto-include it should be testing it?  Is it too skill intensive for the average player?

Bazzar can be a great filter card for decks that don't have access to blue mana, or more importantly Brainstorm.  So I personally think it's worth at least testing in some non blue-based decks. 

I hardly think Bazzar is too skill intensive though, just discard your worst 3.  I have used Bazaar in a variety of decks and I think it's a great card, but you cannot just throw it any deck.  The more synergies Bazaar has with a deck, the less of a drawback the land-drop loss and negative card advantage becomes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that blue-based decks already have plenty of draw that can provide actual card advantage and *probably* don't need a filter that costs a land drop.  On the other hand, some decks simply cannot afford the card disadvantage to see 2 random cards.

With the use of Crop Rotation perhaps, can Bazaar see it's way into decks like Flash, filtering out additional Hulks/Rectors/Flashes?  Are there decks could be abusing it that aren't?  Are there aspects of each deck that can somehow be combined?

Do you think that Flash would prefer adding Bazaar over a card like Ponder?  I would think not, since the loss of a land-drop would slow the deck down when it needs to win ASAP.  Why not just find the win condition with a better draw/tutor then use a filter and have to add in Crop Rotation?

I think another relevent question is: Can Gush decks use Bazaar?  Seems like a great way to filter any unneeded islands and it works since the deck already has Fastbond.  But what could Bazaar replace in a deck like GAT, and would it be worth it?

[Spacebalzz]

I know in Vroman's thread about his deck he cites it as the best draw engine in the game.  I don't necessarily disagree, however I find it funny that of all the decks that utillize it, IMO Vroman's has the least synergy.

I disagree with this statement.  I believe that all three decks you mention have equal synergy with Bazaar; however, they utilize it in different ways.

In Dragon, Bazaar is used primarily to put Dragons (the win condition) and Deep Analysis into the graveyard as well as improving card quality.

The two Baghdad Bob variants utilize Bazaar with the addition of Dark Confidant to, in essence, draw 4 cards and discard 3 each turn. 

In addition to Dark Confidant, Vroman's deck utilizes multiple other cards that have synergy with Bazaar, most notably:

4 lavaman (eating the chaff that goes to the graveyard)
4 jotgrunt (removing the drawback of the cheap 4/4, enabling it to remain on the board "longer than its meant to")
1 riftstone portal
1 tomb yawgs (two lands that reduce the drawback of Bazaar itself--i.e. it doesn't produce mana)

Simply looking at numbers, Baghdad Bob variants have more synergy with Bazaar, as they run more cards that have synergy with Bazaar (i.e. 4 Bob, 4 Lavaman, 4 Grunt, 2 land).  I think what makes the synergy equal between the two decks (Dragon and Baghdad Bob) is that Dragon's Bazaar-synergistic cards are more potent, as they lead to winning the game as opposed to, in Baghdad Bob, creating incredible card advantage and increasing the probablity of crippling lock/disruptive elements. However, these lock/disruptive elements in Baghdad Bob, when metagamed correctly, can be quite as potent as Dragon's synergistic "win the game cards."

That being said...

Is Bazaar good enough that decks that don't auto-include it should be testing it?

I agree with Mike the Mad on this one.  In decks that don't have access to blue and, consequently, its card drawing elements, Bazaar is a card-drawing engine to be considered.  Moreover, in decks that have components that allow you to draw an additional card each turn (i.e. Dark Confidant) and graveyard-value cards (i.e. Goyf, Riftstone Portal, Lavaman, Grunt, hell, even Therapy) that allow you to weather the Bazaar's drawbacks, then it should also be considered.  However, in decks that cannot create consistent, turn-based card advantage or utilize graveyard-value cards, like Flash for instance, including Bazaar would be nonsynergistic (if thats even a word).

Just some thoughts,

-Matt

[tomjoad]

I hardly think Bazzar is too skill intensive though, just discard your worst 3.  I have used Bazaar in a variety of decks and I think it's a great card, but you cannot just throw it any deck.  The more synergies Bazaar has with a deck, the less of a drawback the land-drop loss and negative card advantage becomes.

I think you're overestimating a lot of players skill level here. For an experienced Vintage player, or a non-Vintage but still good player, this should be (mostly) a non-issue. However, even very good players will, on occasion, value the their cards incorrectly. The pure power of Bazaar can make up for this, but a medium good player could easily give away a game by discarding wrong.

I think another relevent question is: Can Gush decks use Bazaar?  Seems like a great way to filter any unneeded islands and it works since the deck already has Fastbond.  But what could Bazaar replace in a deck like GAT, and would it be worth it?

Since Fastbond is restricted, and it isn't so awesome that you'll DT or Vamp for it 100% of the time, you can't really count on it to get you around the "missing a land drop" drawback of the Bazaar. That said, I suspect that Bazaar might be awesome in Gush decks. In place of LoA? The second MisD? I'm really awful at figuring that kind of thing out, but I definitely plan on testing it out.

Seriously though, just imagine of Bazaar could tap for mana (sans shenanigans)...

[Fantaman]

Hi all!

In Italy the story is:

2004/2005
Lot of time ago Worldgorger Deck was a strong Tier 1... because you may play it within 2 diffrent type of methods:

UBR: Forces, duress, various REB and the combo
BRG: Unpowered with ESG, Rods, Duress and the combo

2005/2006
GIFT.... destroy the metagame and lot of decks doesn't alive. You want to play combo control? U play gift... not dragon.

NOW 2006/2007/2008

Bazaar... a card that on ebay is 100 dollars... 120 dolllars... in italy price range from 140 to 160 Euros... but anyone want it:

The conseguence is:

Bazaar only in the ichorid "BABY" deck for Unpowered players who want to play that have no money...

DRAGON: DEAD DECK... in Europe u may watch TOP8 reports... probably is 1 years without Dragon: WINNER.

Madness deck... DEAD

STAX: you may play Vroman's Stax but NOW... Stacker MONO BROWN with 9 Sferes is ONE OF THE STRONGEST TYPE 1 DECK.
You don't have to do Welder... bazaar... and wait a TURN. Mono Brown: starts... WIN.

mhm... Flash Decks and GAT I mean that havent's no POSSIBILITY to play SERIOUSLY that card.


Bazaar of Bagdad is a nice card... Like Library... you may play... you may buy.... you may dream to win a tournament now with BAZAAR DECK.

Thanx

Fantaman

[ristoman]

Is Bazaar good enough that decks that don't auto-include it should be testing it?  Is it too skill intensive for the average player?

Short answer... No and Maybe. Bazaar is, by itself, card disadvantage AND a missed land drop. If you play it you better have a plan to abuse it. There are multiple ways to do that, but it doesn't mean that anyone can use it to their advantage. Lion's Eye Diamond is another card that falls in the same category. In a deck like Baghdad Bob, Bazaar is actually what evens out all the situational 3-ofs and 1-ofs, especially game 1 when on the draw. But to do that effectively you have to know your deck, your opponent's deck, and target their biggest weaknesses from turn 1.

With the use of Crop Rotation perhaps, can Bazaar see it's way into decks like Flash, filtering out additional Hulks/Rectors/Flashes?  Are there decks could be abusing it that aren't?  Are there aspects of each deck that can somehow be combined?

I think it was pointed out before that a deck like HulkFlash has no intention of playing lands that don't produce mana. In fact, I can see Bazaar being used only in decks that are in it for the long haul and can lay down other cards to smooth out the draw and allow more filtering. If you play blue, you have a gazillion other options to create card advantage and filter your draws - but if you're not, Bazaar could be a valid option to keep up. Unfortunately, there aren't that many non-blue control archetypes that can fully take advantage of it.