[Deck] B/u Nether Void Control

[Sarah Angel]

First, you can see my tournament report here, from Myriad Games Tourney 11/10:   http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34906.0

In summary, I lost to GAT 3 times (0-2, 1-2, 0-2) and beat Uba Stax, Future Sight Combo and some janky deck.

While that certainly isn't a very impressive resumé, two main factors lead me to strongly believe that this deck has potential.

1)  Chalice of the Void and Stifle, both 4-ofs maindeck, had no effect.  I did not cast stifle once, and chalice never won me a game.  So this means, that despite essentially 8 dead cards in the deck, I still managed an average showing.  Thus great room to work with in making changes.
2)  The GAT matches were all close, despite Chalice being extremely dead and far inferior to things like Sphere that I could be running.  I also, stupidly, did not put any Smother/submerge/snuff out in my sideboard, thus compounding the difficulty.  Nonetheless, the first 0-2 match, I could have won a game had I drawn a land on my final turn (needed one more black mana to pump shade), before he could kill me.  The other 0-2 match, I kept a stupid hand (tinker and all land, on the draw, knowing I was against GAT) and had one of the more ridiculous stat anomalies occur to me game 2 (demonic consultation removing most of my library when searching for a card that was 4-of in my deck).

Decklist:  Nether Void Control
//Disrupt            
4Chalice of the Void            
4Nether Void            
2Duress                                       Sideboard   
4Stifle                                          4Leyline of the Void
2Echoing Truth                            2Infest
1Trinisphere                                2Darkblast
                                                    2Pithing Needle
//Draw / Tutor                          2Annul
4Brainstorm                                1Island
1Ancestral Recall                         1Swamp
1Demonic Tutor                           1Blue Elemental Blast
1Vampiric Tutor            
1Demonic Consultation            

//Win (I put factory in Mana Sources, but it is also a win)            
3Nantuko Shade
1Tinker            
1DSC            

2Crucible of Worlds            

//Mana Sources = 28      
4Dark Ritual            
1Black Lotus            
1Mox Sapphire            
1Mox Jet            
4Mishras Factory            
4Wasteland            
1Strip Mine            
4Underground Sea            
2Polluted Delta
3Flooded Strand
1Swamp
2Ancient Tomb

Why I think this deck is viable.  My favorite part of this deck is that it does not rely on the graveyard, at all.  It also does not rely (heavily) on artifacts.  Two things (graveyards and artifacts) that are hated out very heavily right now.  So why don't I just play Goblins (which also relies on neither)?  Admittedly, I have not tested the deck vs. Goblins.  Honestly, I think it has a strong matchup, relatively speaking.  With 4 factories, 3 shades and most likely, a move to thoughtseize, instead of duress, I have the tools to combat creatures until I can get a tinker down, or lock out with Nether Void.  Also, their lack of permission allows a potentially game-ending turn 1 nether void.  Their sideboard is weak, with REBs having minimal effect on me and leylines (if not maindecked) having none.  Sphere and/or Chalice can also be potentially crippling for goblins.  Also, while Oath of Druids seems like the far quicker, superior enchantment-based deck, I really believe that the added creatures here, and the harder lock from Nether Void, is superior here.

Matchups
Vs GAT - I already touched on some of the major points, and while my losses would show that this is in favor of GAT, I still would hesitate to call it overly in favor of GAT.  I think adding more moxen, and 4 spheres of resistance in place of Chalice, will give me a stronger threat turn 1.  The sphere would need to be countered, leaving my subsequent nether void uncountered.  Obviously first turn Dryads and tarmogoyfs do not bode well, but there is still a window, after they have played their dryad, where they are tapped out and open to nether void.  The die roll, and first turn creatures GREATLY influence who takes control of the game.  Early dryads are far from game-ending, and I really think the addition of Sphere will help slow down both the actual casting of the dryad and also its growth, giving me more time to get down a shade and nether void.  Also, changing Duress to Thoughtseize is something I'm strongly considering, which could further clear out early dryads.  Another overlooked, but very nice bonus to Nantuko Shade, is its synergy with Dark Ritual to use combat tricks.  Vintage is almost devoid of combat manipulation and dryads and goyfs alike can be easily surprised with a dark ritual on a defending shade.

Vs. Stax - Early Shades are golden, often times moreso than dryads, as they do not need spells to be played to pump, and already start at 2 power.  Their mana base is much more fragile than mine, and does not see the benefit of brainstorm.  Wasting workshops and cities can be crippling.  Obviously trike/welder is not much fun, but I dont think it affects this deck any worse than most others.  Outlasting a Smokestack is easier here, with much more land and potential crucibles.  Anti-welder cards in the sideboard are very easy to run, also combatting dryads and goblins (terror/smother/infest/darkblast/snuff out etc...).  Aggro workshop needs to be hated out via the sideboard.  This deck, which is slower than GAT and goblins, is probably less favorable against Shop aggro, but the combination of Wastelands and Nether Void can put the higher CC robots out of reach.  Maze of Ith is frustrating to play around, but with 5 strip effects and 2 crucibles, it's not always game-ending.

Vs. Empty Gifts and similar builds - Slightly Favorable matchup.  This deck (with, again, the forthcoming addition of Sphere) pours on must-counter threats in the form of Sphere, Nether Void, Ancestral, Tinker and (a forthcoming) Necropotence.  This leaves Shades and factories to run rampant.  Shades and factories do a good job cleaning up Warren tokens, as well.  Post sideboard, gets more difficult, after they get creature hate.  Still, creature hate in the hand, comes at the expense of answers to Nether Void, often times.  I need to explore this matchup more in depth.

Vs. Goblins - Touched on a few points above, but I think, the key here is combining successful foils from Stax (spheres) and successful foils from GAT (early, inflatable creatures).  Toss in some early Nether Voids, with backup creature removal and, while it's far from an easy match, I think it is stronger than Stax and equal to or slightly weaker than GAT here (8 maindeck creatures, if you include DSC, vs. GATs usual 5).

Vs. Ichorid and Flash - Again, the combo of Stax elements (wasteland vs. Bazaar) and GAT (race them with quick creatures) is about as much as you can ask for.  4x Leyline and 2x Needle currently in sideboard.

I don't have time to start my section on the actual decklist breakdown/card choices, but I will return and post that soon (later today).  Suffice to say I am looking for advice on how to improve my GAT matchup, keeping in mind that the Chalices and Stifles have been quite useless, as well as advice on how to improve the deck in general.  I strongly think Sphere and Necropotence need a spot here, and it looks like Thoughtseize is worth the added risk of misdirection, so that I can pull out dryads.

Thanks for any/all help!

[Guli]

Some pointers i would like to give.


Simian and Elvish spirit guides are not affected under Void.
Ninjutsi plays around Nether Void
'Can not be countered' plays around Nether Void
It's a good idea to have Null rod to have an early "void effect". You are using Chalice but I think Rod stops more.[/li][/list]
Shades are 'OK' however people play with big creatures these days. Green is a color you could consider, Mongoose and Tarmogyf seem nice.

[Sarah Angel]

Ok, I'll take up where I left off....

Card Choices:

Chalice of the Void - As I've said, it's only strong turn 1 on the play, so right there you're down to 50% usefulness.  Furthermore, GAT only really fears Chalice=2 which is a BIG stretch.  Wihout lotus, I need a land, ritual and a mox, and the chalice, on the play, first turn, and with no Force of Will from GAT.  I'll consider this guy as a possible sideboard choice, but for now, it's gone.....

Stifle - Also pretty much only good on the play first turn against GAT, Storm and Ichorid.  And that forgoes using Duress/Thoughtseize first turn on the play.  Definitely some other uses, but they seem very situational, at best.  Just seems like there is FAR better stuff to use, without taking up my important 1 drops (Brainstorm, Thoughtseize).  Gone.....

Nantuko Shade:  As Guli points out, people play with big creatures and Shade is not always that big.  I think a 3rd color would be too difficult in this deck, though and shade is so good with Dark Ritual.  I think the advantage gained over Tarmogoyf is pretty narrow and definitely not worth the additional color.  One of the games I won vs. GAT, was with a Shade that was bigger than goyf.  The card worked too well for me to let it go.  I almost always was happy to see it.

Necropotence:  Seems to me that a deck running 4 dark rituals almost HAS to run this.  It's a must counter threat.  Though, I'll admit, my deck dosent seem the best suited to run it.  I dont really have any combo plays, and it dosent afford me any additional protection (since I have none to begin with).  Still, if I drew a thoughtseize and enough mana pieces with a nether void, it could certainly better enable me to force through a void.  General opinions on whether I should run this??

Null Rod, Sphere, Moxen: It seems like I either add Null Rod or add Moxen + Spheres.  First turn land>Moxen>Sphere is just such a strong play, whereas Land>Moxen>Null Rod has little/no effect vs. GAT, goblins.  Sphere, while seemingly making my Nether Void that much harder to play, I think, would outweigh this negative effect in favor of how much more additional time this would buy me with GAT.  I'll admit, Ritual becomes pretty crappy with a sphere in play, but adding more moxen, up to 5, should often let me play the mox before I sphere, giving me a large mana advantage over my opponent.

Regarding the ESGuide and SSGuide, if Belcher is going to beat me, it's probably going to be before I get Void in play.

Regarding Ninjitsu, I only play Nether Void with an opposing creature in play if I have a factory/shade in hand/play.  Factory and Shade both nullify Ninja of Deep Hours.

More to come.....

[Spacebalzz]

With 2 moxen and 4 CotV as your only low CC artifacts, do you really think that Tinker --> DSC is a viable win condition?  It seems that often Tinker would be a dead card with no artifacts to sacrifice to it.  Also, a black deck without Dark Confidant just doesn't seem right.  I think he's just to good not to include.

[Guli]

I pointed out SSG and ESG so you might consider them yourself. You can get your void faster and later on they can be a mana source or simple beaters if you need a creature. I think you need to neutralize opponents acceleration somehow if you want Nether Void to have success. Null Rod isn't that hot right now they say. But it still shuts down a lot. Just to give you an example it shuts down Aether Vial which is a real threat for you. You can't just add Nether void to a deck. That is one card that requires the deck to be adapted (or build around) to itself.

[Sarah Angel]

@ Spacebalzz - I agree that tinker seems to have too few targets, and in my current discussion, I'm going to most likely add 2 or 3 more moxen, so I will have 4-5 moxen and 3-4 spheres of resistance.  I've actually sacced black lotus as well, though that's certainly not a very preferable play.

However, I think you are overlooking this guy "4x Mishra's Factory".  He is the crux of why I can run tinker.  He is essentially a 1 casting cost artifact without any significant drawback to saccing.

@ Guli - First of all, I LOVE null rod and agree that regardless of how "Hot or Cold" the card is currently, it's a great, sometimes game-ending card.  I actually had 2 of them in a preliminary build for the deck.  But I took them out because my new plan was to play the moxes, and then shut off their potential moxen with CotV=Zero.

Obviously, after ditching CotV, I am now thinking of 4-5 Moxen plus 4 Sphere of Resistance.  I would like to play the moxen and then the sphere, thus making their moxen very inefficient and giving me a tempo advantage on early game mana.  Plus, I feel that a resolved Sphere would give me enough time vs. GAT and Combo that I wouldnt need to cripple myself as well, by using Null Rod

And my biggest problem with null rod is that, though it can immediately affect the board at any point Vs. Stax, it is quite dead Vs. GAT.

If I did use Null Rod, what would you suggest?  3x Null Rod + 2x Mox?  Moxen + Null Rod just seems so risky in a deck.  If I play Land>Mox>Null Rod, I've just used my first turn and 2 cards from my hand.  If I'm lucky, this may make 1-2 of their cards dead (if playing vs. Stax or Combo) but then it dosent really create that much of an advantage for me, as I've slowed down their acceleration as well as mine.

Sphere just seems better at slowing down their acceleration and also slowing down Gush and Dryad simultaneously.

[Sarah Angel]

Also, regarding the ESG and SSG, it seems like your suggestions are aimed towards making a deck more like Belcher, where I lay all of my resources in to finding and casting Nether Void ASAP.

I'm not actually trying to do that with my deck, for better or worse.  My deck plays a little slower, trying to create early threats, without relying 100% on resolving my first Nether Void.  By adding Necropotence and having the 4 dark rituals and moxen, I can now leverage a lot of potential Turn 1 threats:

Necropotence, Ancestral, 4x Nether Void, Tinker, Trinisphere.

So I draw out their counters, while simultaneously trying to slow them down (Sphere of Resistance) and re-load in to another Nether Void while putting down Factories and Shades.

Dark Confidant has crossed my mind, but I'm not sure where I'd fit him in.  I can't pull out the factories (too easy to drop them in while Void is in play) and Shade gives me an actual creature threat.

Plus I dont like the fact that you have to pass the turn twice before he even nets you a card.

[Guli]

You want cheap effective answers and a lot acceleration. That's why i suggest this list.

Mana and acceleration

    1 Black Lotus
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    3 Simian Spirit Guide
    8 Swamp
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mox Jet


 Creatures

    4 Mishra's Factory (4)
    3 Blinkmoth Nexus
    4 Skullsnatcher


 Mana denial and disruption/removal

    4 Nether Void
    4 Null Rod
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine

    4 Duress
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Innocent Blood

 
 Tutor
 
    1 Demonic Consultation

[Sarah Angel]

Wow, that's a really interesting suggestion.  I love innocent blood, too, great card.

It sounds like you have some experience with Nether Void-based decks?  Have you ever tried a build like the one you suggested in tournament play?

I will definitely be testing your build, thanks!

[madmanmike25]

I see 2 ways you can go with this deck.

1.)  More creatures
2.)  Better disruption

Option 1 would let you add in Aether Vial, which is great to cast your dudes under N-Void, or spheres if you choose to run them.

Ninja of the Deep Hours would be playable.  As is Mistblade Shinobi.



Option 2, I would cut the Chalice and add in FoW because after all its "B/u Nether Void Control" right?  Plus your report indicated that Chalice pretty much sucked for you.  CotV is THE BEST in Workshop decks since they can cast it Turn 1 with 1-2 counters on it.  CotV@0 isn't so hot right now, making Null Rod not so hot either. 

Why no Sol Ring????  Turn 1 Sol Ring=easy turn 2 N-Void.

No shades, more manlands and +1 Crucible is another option.  More manlands means you can add in Standstill to generate actual card advantage if you don't see/resolve N-Void early enough.  Just be smart if you use Standstill.  Don't cast it if they have creature advantage.  And if they do have creature advantage tutor up the card mentioned below then cast it.

If you cut the shades, you can add in Damnation(most likely as a 2-of).  I heard a crazy rumor that creatures are playable again in Vintage and this can save your ass while providing a pseudo-card advantage.(i.e. killing 2+ creatures with one card)  Oh wait, is DSC indestructible??

You can probably add in MyTutor to get an early Tinker/answer.  It helps up the blue spell count too.  I think you really need FoW in this deck.

I think Option 2 is the way to go.  B/U Land-Void anyone?

Good luck,
Mike

[Fantaman]

Mhm I watch your deck list and N.Void was a stronger card, the problem is that PRO players all over the world doesn't RISK that DCI points or tournament to test these type of deck.

About you deck list I made some changes:

         
4 Chalice of the Void           
4 Nether Void           
4 Duress           = 4 Duress against the MOST stronger decks like GAT, Storm, C.slaver, Flash and Co.                           
3 Stifle           = 3 are sufficient                             
2 Echoing Truth                           
1 Trinisphere      = This is the card that I prefer... eheheh!                         
                                                                           
4 Force of Will = Forces are necessary against first turn opponent... REMEMBER YOU have to play them
4 Brainstorm                               
1 Ancestral Recall 
1 Necropotence  = It's a risk card... but more stronger than D.consultation or something else.                     
1 Demonic Tutor                           
1 Vampiric Tutor                       

Creatures
3 Dark Confidant = It's an idea because with these cards u have more possibility to draw; I know
that nantuko are STRONGER but you don't have LOT of black mana and I prefer to draw two cards
and simply beat my opponent with factories and confidant.
         
28 Cards mana base
4 Dark Ritual           
1 Black Lotus           
1 Mox Sapphire           
1 Mox Jet     
1 Sol Ring     = THIS CARD IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST in your deck. Probably Mana crypt is another card to take inside
3 Mishras Factory    Kill Creatures       
4 Wasteland           
1 Strip Mine           
4 Underground Sea           
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Ancient Tomb

NO TINKER... you have to play tinker with artifacts not only with 2 moxes, lotus and a ring...

Sideboard
3 Crucible of Words = Crucible agains stax one big idea: land ritual crucible... chalice 0...!
4 Leyleine of the Void = stronger against ichorid and yawgmoth
3 Red Elemental Blast = This is an idea... so you may have more counters agains GAT, Drains deck, Gift and Co.
1 Volcanic Island =  to play with REB
2 Pitting Needle = mhm I don't know if this is a nice choice... better 2 Smother... goblins and WuTang are not easy...
and you may play smother agains GAT
2 Contagio = STRONGER STRONGER STRONGER...!!!!

This deck was played lot of time ago in Italy from my friend with 12/12 and masks. Stronger deck!!!

You have to test this deck with more moxes, try rods or Scimian/ESG !!!

Try it!

Good Luck I will play it in gennuary on a little tournament... we will see how it works propely!

Cya

Fantaman