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Author Topic: Feinstein's Mox: 1st place with GAT  (Read 6780 times)
The Atog Lord
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« on: December 24, 2007, 07:39:39 am »

Rich Shay
The Feinstein Report
First Place, Feinstein's Mox, December 23

Just so you don't need to scroll down to find it, here's the list I ran at Dave's event.

// Mana
6 Fetchland
3 underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Basic Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Moxen
1 Black Lotus

// Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Scroll
4 Gush

// Control
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Mana Drain
0 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fire/Ice

// Tutors
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

// Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

// Winning
2 Psychatog
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Berserk
0 Quirion Dryads

// Sideboard
1 Volcanic Island
3 Pyroclasm
4 Energy Flux
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jailer
3 Red Elemental Blast

Expected Metagame:
1. GAT Mirror Matches
2. Workshop-Based Decks
3. Goblins / Aggro decks

This list deserves some explanation. The first thing you might notice is that I ran red. This is because of Goblins. Do I need Red Blasts? I'm not sure they're any better than Thoughtseize. Do I need Red artifact removal? I didn't run any. What red gave me were burn spells. The last tournament I went to was Star City in Chicago. There, my one match loss was against Goblins. My teammate, Jesus, also lost a round to them. And none of the answers in-color seemed great. Hail Storm, Plague, and Infest; these aren't on par with a two mana sorcery. The fact that Pyrcoclasm also hits Magus of the Moon made it seem even better.

4 Ponder, 19 Mana:
In testing with either 3 Ponder or 18 Mana, I found myself losing too many games to a well-placed Wasteland. Finally, frustrated at losing to my own manabase imploding, I decided to try running the full set of Ponder plus 19 mana. The deck became more smooth after that and the number of games I lost to my own manabase imploding shrank.

2 Island maindeck, 1 Volcanic Island sideboard:
This worked out well. Against decks that can attack your manabase, having a second Basic Island is strong. It gets you Drain against Stax and it lets you ensure that unless your opponent gets a Crucible online, you will have at least one land survive their lone Strip Mine. Having the Volcanic Island in the sideboard enabled two different strong board options. Against the mirror and similar decks, I could swap out a Basic Island for the Volcanic sort. Against Stax, I could just bring in the 20the mana source for added resiliency against their mana denial plan.

Fire/Ice:
I expected to see a Confidant across the table. That didn't't happen, but I burnt a fair number of Welders and a Magus too. If I played without Red, then I would have had a Misdirection in that spot.

1 Berserk:
Mon, Goblin Chief is right -- thanks to him for the idea of maindecking this card. It proved itself great all day, taking down opponents when Cunning Wish would not have worked. One game against Stax, for example, I was able to Berserk for the win when the added cost of Cunning Wish would have given my opponent another turn. Not once all day did I miss having the versatility of the Wish maindeck; Echoing Truth serves that purpose sufficiently. In addition, Red presents added sideboard options, meaning that not having Wish cards in the sideboard is good.

2 Psychatog / 3 Goyf / 0 Dryad
This was a metagame call. I was preparing to have a standard list with three Goyfs in the sideboard. However, I found myself unable to cram all the cards I wanted into my sideboard. Something needed to give way. So, I started thinking as follows. In the mirror match, I'd generally rather have my evil cousin than a Dryad -- after all, Psychatog trumps an opposing Dryad under most circumstances, but a Dryad seldom trumps one the opponent has already played. Against Stax and Aggro, I'd rather have Tarmogoyf than Dryad under normal circumstances. With so many spheres seeing play, getting the Dryad large is becoming more difficult; factor that with the burn that various red aggro decks are including and Tarmogoyf seems even better. So, there's no matchup in the metagame I expected where Dryad is the optimal creature. I cut her and made three new sideboard slots.

4 Energy Flux
Brassman gets all the credit for this one. He told me they were good in his testing. I'm at home without access to MWS, so I couldn't test them myself. (As an aside, I wish that MWS had a version that worked on this Ubuntu machine). Brassman was right -- they proved themselves excellent today. They were more effective than the alternate options would have been.

Round 1: John Longo with Blue Draw/Go

Game 1: I open with Sea and Ponder. John gets out an Island and casts Ancestral Recall. I Force it. I Timewalk, Gush, and Duress him. I Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall and John is stuck at one land for too long.
Game 2: John passes with a land. I Duress him, to which he responds with Brainstorm. He continues to dig with cantrips while I shut down the Drain I know he has for a turn with Ice. After a couple of turns of passing the turn back and forth, John uses Misdirection to push his Ancestral through past my Red Blast. He drops a Chalice at 0 and a Chalice at 1. The Chalice at 0 traps a pair of Moxen and a Black Lotus in my hand as John casts more draw. I resolve Psychatog and John resolves Tinker. My Psychatog was one point away from being lethal before Colossus ended things.
Game 3: This game is slow in the start -- we're both drawing and passing the turn. I eventually pass the turn with triple Counter backup and an Ancestral Recall in my hand. Then I lose. Here's what happens on John's turn. He casts Tinker. I REB it. He casts Ancestral. I cast Ancestral. He casts Misdirection. I Drain. He Forces. I Force. My Ancestral resolves and I draw 3. It includes a Red Blast but I don't have the Red to cast it -- and if it were Misdirection, I didn't have the Blue card to pitch to that either. John then draws three off his Ancestral, including a Mana Drain. He Drains my Red Blast and his Tinker gets the game-winning Colossus.

This match involved a massive counter war and despite my losing it was a lot of fun. The second and third games were both very close and the fact that John was playing a non-standard deck worked to his advantage because I couldn't predict what he would do as easily.

Round 2: Sean with Stax

Game 1: I open with Lotus and Ponder. I shuffle, draw, and play an Emerald and a Tropical Island. Goyf resolves and I cycle Ice. He Wastes my Tropical Island while I Scroll for Ancestral. Goyf is a 4/5 while he's Wasting my second land. Sean gets a Shaman and Welder but they need to jump in front of the Goyf to keep Sean alive. Goyf ends this quickly.
Game 2: Sean mulligans to 5 and I have another first turn Goyf. Sean plays a second Welder and I Fire them both to death. After that, Goyf is able to win before Sean can break through with his threats.

Tarmogoyf was great in this match. He came into play quickly and was an immediate threat, putting Stax on the defensive right away. Being able to use Fire to kill the two Welders was strong; Pithing Needle could have worked, but Sean was running Gorilla Shaman so Needle might not have worked as well. Moreover, the Tarmogoyf would have been smaller in that case, and the size of the creature allowed me to end the game fairly quickly.

Round 3: Austin with RG Beats

Game 1: Austin mulligans and passes with an untapped Taiga. I fetch out a Basic Island. Austin has no second turn play, and I have a Tarmogoyf. I Scroll for Ancestral while Austin starts getting some creatures into play. Force keeps Magus off the table while I continue casting draw spells. I resolve a Psychatog which Austin burns to prevent from being lethal, Austin's creatures having already jumped in from of mine and traded with my Goyf. However, I soon Vampiric Tutor for Berserk and win.
Game 2: Austin has two Moxes and a Mana Crypt. Root Maze comes down and I search up Ancestral. I play a Tarmogoyf and over the course of the game cast three Force of Wills to protect him. He ends up going the distance. One of the key plays here was countering a Lighting Bolt against my lethal 4/5 Tarmogoyf. I played around Sudden Shock, which Austin had.

Games against Red Green 'Beatz' are scary. In the second game, I was in a position where I would have lost if Austin's three-card hand was a pair of Lightning Bolts and a Red Blast. It wasn't, but playing against Burn is certainly where having Misdirection would have been nice. The MVP here was Tarmogoyf. At one point, T00L walked over and mentioned how my deck was being a better Green aggro deck than my opponent's deck was; Goyf is huge and more resilient to quick burn than Dryad is.

Round 4: Jeff with Long

These games were uneventful. Hand disruption and counters were able to prevent Jeff from being in either of these games. Psychatog finishes them both. Long is fairly weak against GAT. The fact that it has been doing well lately indicates that GAT is not as dominant as many people are fearing that it would be.

Round 5: Ross Merriam with Stax

Game 1: Ross opens with Wasteland, Mana Crypt, and Thorn. I use Island to play two Moxes. Ross has Coalition Relic. I Duress, seeing Uba Mask, Top, and Vamp; I take the Top and pass with Force online. I Force his Mask and his Vamp resolves. I Mana Drain his Tinker and win with a Berserk Psychatog.
Game 2: Ross has another Mana Crypt/Sphere start, this time with Strip Mine. I play a land and Mox. He Timewalks and Ancestrals himself. I Ancestral and discard, my land getting hit. He then gets out Goblin Welder. I Mana Drain into Energy Flux. And then his board starts to crumble. He fights to keep cards in play, but is unable to advance his position and slowly starts losing ground, despite the best efforts of his Goblin Welder. The second Energy Flux further hinders his board, and Goyf finishes it off.

Being able to board in a 20th mana source really helped me survive Ross' mana denial in the second game. The Energy Fluxes were great too. Targeted removal or a Predator would have been counteracted by the Goblin Welder; Energy Flux was able to destroy Ross' board by preventing him from having a pile of permanents in play as Stax usually does. That said, Ross played very well and the second game was very close.

Draw into Top Eight

Top Eight: Brassman with GAT

Game 1: Brassman passes with Trop. I Duress, seeing: Gush, Gush, Dryad, Drain, Durres, Will. I take Mana Drain. Brassman doesn't find land and Psychatog ends things in a hurry.
Game 2: Brassman Ancestrals. I open with a Tarmogoyf. Brassman has a second land. I Ponder. He then Drains my Timewalk and takes manaburn. He soon casts Vampiric Tutor and resolves a Dryad. His Duress, however, gets Mana Drained. He Brainstorms, then Gushes the next turn; I Ancestral in response to his Gush. Brassman counters my Fastbond, but a Vampirically-given Yawgmoth's Will wins me the game on the next turn.

Top Four: T00L with GAT

Game 1: Tool opens with Delta and Lotus. He Scrolls and resolves Ancestral Recall. Then he plays a Jet and a Sapphire. He Forces my Lotus, and repeals my fastbond. I didn't have any way to abuse Fastbond that game anyway. I get a Tarmogoyf onto the table but his Psychatog is much larger. He Mana Drains my Yawgmoth's Will and buries me in card advantage.
Game 2: We both mulligan. This time I Scroll for Ancestral and Force his Misdirection. Psychatog resolves on my side and is soon lethal with some help from Gush.
Game 3: Tool opens with an Island for Ponder. He plays a Jet and Vampiric Tutor. I have a Force for the Ancestral he casts next turn, which he Misdirects. I have my own Ancestral soon which also resolves. I cast a few cantrips and Duress him. I REB his Psychatog and resolve my own. Mystical Tutor finds my Yawgmoth's Will in response to his Duress and that's the match.

Finals: Rich Meyst with Aggro Stax

Rich has already beaten ELD and Brassman, so I know that this match is going to be rough.
Game 1: Rich has a first turn Juggernaut with Wasteland and a second Juggernaut on his second turn. However, I go off with Fastbond before his third turn.
Game 2: Rich has a Welder and some restricted mana sources. I get out a second turn Tarmogoyf but he destroys my mana sources and it is Goyf staring down about 12 permanents. I am forced to stop attacking and then I get run over.
Game 3: I resolve Energy Flux while Rich resolves a Magus and a Sword of Fire and Ice. I Fire his Magus in response to  equipping. Flux hinders Rich's board position while I find a Tarmogoyf to win the game.

In conclusion, I was very happy with my list for the metagame. If there were any Flash or more Ichorid, it would need some changes. Likewise, if there were fewer aggro decks, then the Red splash wouldn't be justified. I only played against two red aggro decks, but they made up a decent part of the field and half of the top eight.

Thanks to everyone I talked with or tested against yesterday and the day before: Brass Man, Jesus, Matt, Josh, Master Tap, ELD, T00L, Soly, and anyone I can't remember.

Thanks to Feinstein and his staff. This was a fun event. Dave was generous with his prizes and worked hard to make sure everyone had a good time. If you ever see Dave, make sure to ask him to do a jig. You won't regret it.

Finally, thanks to all of my opponents and everyone I hung out with. I am very happy that I got to go to this while I'm back in the area for Christmas break.
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2007, 10:59:07 am »

Awesome job, Rich.

My favorite part of the report:

0 Thoughtsieze

The part that made me the most nervous:

0 Leyline of the Void
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2007, 11:23:06 am »

Nice work Rich!

Oh noes!  You've finally come over to the merits of GATr.

I'm sure our epic rematch will be much closer next time Smile

I ran E. Flux at SCG Chicago, both days, and it was pretty amazing there too.   With the rise of MUD and mono color workshop, E Flux is going to be necessary for a while. 

Stephen
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 11:27:31 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2007, 11:37:00 am »

Congrats Rich,

It was disappointing to not get the chance to play you.  We were even in the correct brackets to play in the finals.  I'll try harder to keep up my end of the bargain next time.  The place to start is definitely my match up vs Mono Red Aggro Shop.  It is distinctly different from Prison/MUD builds, and plays very much like 5/3 used to.  Looks like I'll be going back to Energy Fluxes again. 
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 01:06:59 pm »

Hey Rich, Nick here. First off congrats. You were completly accurate in your metagame call heading into this event. I run Eld's version and have done very well with it lately but at Feinsteins my only 2 losses came to goblins and oldschool ankh sligh with pillar. After this event I now too realize that people who run gat need to pay more attention to all these red-based aggro-decks and less attention to ichorid when constructing their sideboard. I think we'll see them a lot more later in the day as they sneak through. I also have a question regarding the 0 Dryads. Did you ever find yourself going off wishing you had a dryad? Not as important but did you have to slow down your Yawg Will to make sure your Goyfs and Togs stayed big? Oh yea and Flux is a monster winning my 2 stax matches. Anyway good job.
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 02:20:53 pm »

The addition of red is a nice touch to the deck, offering strong answers to various decks without to much damage to your mana base.  After extensive testing with Rich my sligh deck was giving standard GAT many headaches with the multitude of ways it can attack the deck. Over all though I dont think you need to worry about the match as much with the goyf build of the deck, which was a saving grace of Rich's  build of GAT vs many others. As far as mono red decks doing well the meta is very ripe for them atm as many decks are unprepared. The build that I prefer myself:

Creatures: 16
2 gorilla shaman
2 goblin vandal
4 mogg fanatic
4 grim lavamancer
4 magus of the moon

Burn: 11
3 fireblast
4 lightning bolt
4 price of progress

Hate: 11
3 pyrostatic pillar
4 ankh of mishra
4 black vise

Mana: 22
1 lotus petal
1 mox ruby
1 black lotus
4 simian spirit guide
15 mountains

SB: 15
1 pyrostatic pillar
3 shattering spree
3 tormods crypt
4 fratured loyality
4 pyroblast
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 02:29:45 pm by TheDeadMan » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 02:25:37 pm »

Rich, it was a pleasure to play you. Our games were fun as hell, but in that second match, I opened up with double mox, Taiga and Tormod's crypt, not Mana Crypt.
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2007, 06:49:51 pm »

Congrats Rich!  I wish I could have had a better match with you but a sub par hand 1st game and a mull to 5 just doesn't stack (small pun intended) up to the power of goyf.  I do fully agree that in today's meta goyf poses more of a threat than dryad.  He comes down against stax half the time on turn 1 or 2 as a 4/5 or a 5/6.  It's especially brutal against staxless stax, which I was playing, because the deck usually takes slightly longer to stabilize and produce multiple threats than traditional stax.   

Out of curiosity, did you use Berserk aggressively at all during the tournament to kill an opponents creature on turn 1 or thereafter?

-Sean
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2007, 03:01:30 am »

Congrats on the win Rich. You may have bested the GGs this time but next time the day shall be ours!
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« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2007, 04:46:13 am »

Interesting list....a few notes:

-No thoughtseize? Why do you prefer duress?
-No LoA, i expect this is because of workshops and red-aggro.
-No misdirection (Well i don't like that card anyways Wink)

I really like how simple the list looks, it doesn't rely on fancy tricks to get out of a sticky situation...no scroll for wish, wish for answers..And goyf just comes swinging with no help!

Grats on the finish.

/Zeus
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2007, 11:01:23 am »

Thanks for the great feedback, everyone. I appreciate it. To answer the questions that have been asked:

I never managed to kill an attacker with Berserk at the tournament. It's happened in testing, however.

I never missed Dryad all day, nor did I once fizzle when trying to go off because I lacked a creature. Psychatog is better for going off than Dryad in most cases, and I was always able to find one of the two.

Sporcore, I guess I had "crypt" written in my notes.

Master Tap, your list did very well. Congratulations.

I ran Duress due to what I expected in the metagame. Thoughtseize has been solid in testing, but Duress not costing two life is nice. I'll continue to test Thoughtseize, but for the moment Duress is more familiar and in this metagame lifetotals are important.

Library was replaced with the Ruby in this metagame. Ruby was great all day. That said, in my first match of the day, Library would have been great.

Misdirection is a good card but I didn't have room in my deck. Also, cutting it worked because no one expected it to be cut.
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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2007, 12:24:58 pm »

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the report, excellent as usual.

Quote
As an aside, I wish that MWS had a version that worked on this Ubuntu machine

You can use mindless automaton, a free software compatible with Apprentice.
I tried it a long time ago vs an opponent running Apprentice and it worked fine.

I just installed it again on Ubuntu 7.10 and left installation notes (pretty easy) in English at the bottom of the page:
http://zongo.be/wiki/MindlessAutomaton
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 01:56:47 am »

If there were any Flash or more Ichorid, it would need some changes.

How would you accommodate this, what changes would you make?

and congratulations.
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2007, 01:25:11 pm »

Were I afraid of just Ichorid, then I'd increase the count of Needles and Jailers, perhaps adding a single Tormod's Crypt. If both Ichorid and Flash were expected, then I'd want to have six Leylines in my sideboard.
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 01:58:50 am »

Hey Rich,

I'm not too sure how necessary Pyroclasm is against Goblins. From what I have come to understand, the most relevant cards that come out of that deck, are Goblin Lackey, and Aether Vial. Occasionally Leyline Of The Void may make a difference. I have come to understand the rest of the deck is too slow and clunky without those cards to really make an impact on the game state. Vial sets up the key plays to get around countermagic, and it's instant speed ability may put Pyroclasm in the "too late" situation. This may sound silly, but being a frequent Goblins player, I think a card like Propaganda would be more threatening actually packed with a Tarmogoyf on the side, I can't really imagine winning through that.

Just some thoughts for our rematch. Good job buddy.

-Elias
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2008, 02:46:54 am »

Elias,

Thank you for the insight. You've an experienced Goblin player, and I'm very happy to hear your thoughts on the subject. I have noticed that losing to Goblins involves one of the following situations: Goblins destroying GAT's manabase; Goblins opening with a blindingly quick start; or Goblins overwhelming GAT with a horde of creatures. The first scenario can be addressed by having a 20th mana source in the sideboard and by having a full set of Brainstorms and Ponders. The second and third, however, require specific and dedicated solutions.

Propaganda is a very powerful card and it will no doubt slow down Goblins' swarming ability. However, while I have not tested it, there were some problems that I foresaw with it that prevented me from playing it after (I believe it was) Jesus suggested it. Goblins naturally brings in REBs against GAT, and therefore has a swift answer to Propaganda.

The main reason I didn't use propaganda was that I envisioned being able to slow down Goblins via Propaganda but not being able to leverage that added time into victory. GAT wins on the ground, and Propaganda doesn't help GAT's creatures break through. I was too afraid that Goblins could toss enough blockers onto the table to be able to block me until it either had enough mana to attack, or had a lethal Siege-Gang Commander.

That said, I haven't played a single game with Propaganda; this is all just theory. Given your endorsement,  I'd like to test it in the near future.

Dave Feinstein also mentioned Engineered Plague. I tested that and it worked well, but was too narrow to include.
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2008, 09:55:45 pm »

Would Engineered Plague be too slow against Flash naming "Sliver"?
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 12:28:11 am »

Would Engineered Plague be too slow against Flash naming "Sliver"?

Would Engineered Plague be too slow against the mirror naming "Dryad" (that is, in a non-Dryad list such as Rich's)?
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 04:06:22 am »

The problem with Engineered Plague against Flash is that they already have plenty of Enchantment removal to bring in. In fact, it is likely that they've already brought it in, expecting Leylines. Leylines seem better than Engineered Plague against Flash, because they can disrupt the early Flash game while being only one more mana to hardcast. I might bring in a couple if they were in the board already against Goblins, but wouldn't consider them as cards to sideboard for the match.

For Plague against Dryads, I'd rather play Threads of Disloyalty if I wanted a three-costed enchantment against the mirror. A preemptive removal spell that works against only some of GAT's creatures is too narrow to bring in, even if I already had them in the board.
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