Vintage: A love/hate format.

[oneofchaos]

[You say drain decks go upkeep draw or draw?  How about mystical/vampiric tutor?  Dark confidant?  Top in bomberman? 

I was comparing draw phase to draw phase.  None of these can be played or activated prior to your draw in your draw phase. 
The Ichorid player must decide which card to dredge or whether to dredge at all.  The blue based control player has no decision until after he or she has drawn.  It is fairly rare for blue based control to do anything during their draw phase.  The most common play I can think of is when Tangle Wire is out and they floated mana from their upkeep phase to play an instant speed spell which they top decked.

If you want to address the upkeep phase that is fine.  Ichorid has an upkeep phase which is far more complicated than blue based control's upkeep phase.

I can agree with that

Also, I'd just like to say of course their are good/medium/bad ichorid players.  I've lost to good ones, beaten bad ones, beaten good ones, and lost to bad ones.  However the noticable play difference is always a factor in games 2/3.  I'd say if ichorid was to be a deck that required interaction, then game 1 you've got yourself a few minutes to win a game and think before you have to think.  Web, on the bridge from below-
For someone returning to vintage from a hiatus (not me), it's a really big surprise how it works.  No need to be snotty assuming everyone thinks things don't work like they used to.  I mean they changed the card faces, so we got used to that right?  On Ichorid playing itself - a friend who never played magic found how to play ichorid with perfection, even tho he doesn't know how this mana thing works.  He also doesn't know card advantage is good but he realizes your goal is to find one card and win with it, or lose without it.  Also with cabal therapy, you of course have to know what to name.  Then again you can look at a meta figure out what's good and then take educated guesses on what your opponent has.  The true skill behind cabal therapy is knowing your meta, and knowing what to expect.

[wiley]

Can't the same things be said about other decks?

You have to know what to counter in certain match ups, like you never let a gifts or intuition resolve if you can help it.  You try to pro actively get rid of your opponents options with discard/spheres/mages and other lock pieces.  You always attempt to shut down your opponent's strategies, no matter what they are.  And knowing these other decks as well as the players that play them goes a long way to figuring out these plays.

The only arguable difference is the type of decisions that have to be made on both sides.  The Ichorid player thinks of the game in terms of rules manipulation while the the rest of the field thinks in terms of card/spell manipulation.  Granted there are somewhat narrow cards used to fight the almost entirely graveyard dependent strategy of Ichorid, however those same cards are great at shutting off will plays, broken tricks with welder, stopping salvager combos, etc.

I will concede to a certain point that the average required skill level of ichorid is lower than that of gifts or long variants, however the extent to which the deck allows your own play skill to shine is nearly the same.  There are many tricks both decks can pull off, just on entirely different wavelengths, that the average player would never think of.  Unfortunately since Ichorid doesn't require a large level of play skill to pilot it will always be seen as "some dumb deck that shouldn't exist."

Also OneofChaos, you say that you have won games without blue mana in a predominantly blue deck.  Great.  However, I have played very few game 2 and 3s where my bazaar wasn't shut off by a needle, or rendered useless by a leyline or recurring crypt.  How well can you pilot your decks through 5-6 rounds of swiss when 2/3 of your games start you off with a 40% or less chance of winning?  If they mage your kill conditions and back them up with counters out the yin yang do you still find ways around it?  How well do you train your problem solving skills for your worst match ups?  I ask because game 2 and 3 is always Ichorid's worst match up.  Same with Flash.  There are cards that simply seal the entire deck like no other.  The Ichorid players that matter, the ones that can make a top 8, have gone through rigorous testing like this.

A brand new player to the game can no more hope to top8 a 5-6 round swiss tourney with Ichorid than GAT.

But to think that current vintage has decks that abuse the stack, the graveyard, the hand, the library, the board and out of play zones in adition to players who test rigorously and truly enjoy playing the game, I am certainly happy with and excited about the current state of vintage, knowing that all things are possible.

[oneofchaos]

  Unfortunately since Ichorid doesn't require a large level of play skill to pilot it will always be seen as "some dumb deck that shouldn't exist."

I'm very unhappy with this new version of ichorid.  Back in the days of old, when it had mana and recall, and chains maindeck and stuff, I kind of liked it.  It wasn't nearly as good, but it was interesting and a lot less linear.  I didn't say ichorid shouldn't exist, it's established itself.  That would be the equivalent of saying, shit MUD and shop aggro are doing good, we need to get rid of them completely.  I just don't like the way this current version plays out nor the strategies associated with it.  I hope I never bashed any ichorid players, because of course flaming a deck type can cause the players to get mad quickly.  I respect your choice, it is yours to make.

A personal thought of mine was ichorid players won game 1.  Good ichorid players win the next couple. 

Deck one- courtesy 2006-04-20

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Golgari Grave-troll
1 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
   
Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Darkblast
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Balance
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Careful Study
1 Imperial Seal

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
1 Underground Sea
   
Sideboard:

4 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
4 Root Maze
3 Chain Of Vapor

_____________________________ _____________________________ _______

Deck 2 2007-08-19

Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Serum Powder

Creatures
2 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
4 Leyline Of The Void

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Unmask

Lands
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

Land Creatures
4 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Contagion
3 Emerald Charm
4 Reverent Silence
2 Taiga

As seen, the deck has evolved dramatically.  Also the time has changed from gifts dominance to gush dominance.  What I liked was the gifts vs ichorid matchup, it was interesting (of olden days).  This new gush vs ichorid matchup is really really boring and continues to be.  Dedicating your sideboard to win a match game 2/3 is a given, it's how you win.  Trying to find answers in games 2/3 is critical.  What i don't like is having to have those answers turn 0.

[ErkBek]

Anyone think the metagame is so diverse partially because of Flash and Ichorid making top tier decks having to devote a considerable amount of their sideboard space to dealing with those decks instead of running cards that would be good against Aggro (ie: Clasm, FTK, Smother, etc). For example, my GAT sideboard:

4 Energy Flux (Shops)
3 Tarmogoyf (Shops, fish, red decks, hate decks)
3 REB (Gush Mirrors, Flash, Drains)
3 Needle (Dredge and vs. random stuff)
2 Jailer (Dredge)

Notice, I don't really have much of a board for Fish or any type of aggro. I probably would bring in a couple of Red Blasts and 3 Goyfs vs. fish, rather than a card like Pryoclasm or Massacre like I would a year ago. My limited sideboard makes something like Dark Confidant, which is often the backbone for an aggro control or hate deck, even better against GAT since not even my sideboard has a way to kill him. I can't have a way to kill him though, there's just not enough space. If I do play a way to deal, it's going to come at the cost of my other matches, probably Dredge. I've got to play the Dredge hate though, it's just not possible to beat without the hate.

Oddly enough, I think without Dredge in the format you'd have less diversity since the top tier decks would be able to run better sideboards to address the other bad matchups.

[diopter]

Anyone think the metagame is so diverse partially because of Flash and Ichorid making top tier decks having to devote a considerable amount of their sideboard space to dealing with those decks instead of running cards that would be good against Aggro (ie: Clasm, FTK, Smother, etc). For example, my GAT sideboard:

I do think so, but I don't see that as a bad thing. The best formats don't have decks that can metagame against everything.

[Smmenen]

Anyone think the metagame is so diverse partially because of Flash and Ichorid making top tier decks having to devote a considerable amount of their sideboard space to dealing with those decks instead of running cards that would be good against Aggro (ie: Clasm, FTK, Smother, etc). F

I don't really agree with that.   How do Ichorid or Flash take up more space than GAT or Shops or Shops or Gifts or Fish decks traditionally did? they don't.   The diversity of upper tier decks requires a more finely tuned and intelligently selected SB, but that is a function of the number of top decks and not what decks they are. 

Simple math:

Tier One:
Decks A, B, and C

You have to sideboard for three decks.

If the upper tier has Decks A, B, C, D, E, F, and G, then sideboarding will be obviously much harder.

A more diverse metagame makes for tougher sideboarding, but that is a truism and has nothing to do, per se, with Ichorid and Flash.  The fact that Flash and Ichorid require unique solutions that don't cross over to other decks is not unique either.  it is a historical anamoly that there is so much over lap because of the narrowness of earlier vintage metagames.

[feyd]

I refute this last post.  There are no A,B, and C top tier decks.  There are perhaps 5 major decks that beat a major ammount of other given decks in any given meta.  However, there are also rogue decks which beat some of the top tier and fold to others.  Which means there really is no top tier, only the squabbling of two good decks while a third unknown deck blindsides and massacres them both. 
   
     For example:  If everyone were to hate out workshop and ichorid (very easy to do BTW) they would be blindsided by aggro, homegrown, random, etc.  If people were to sideboard vs blue decks, ichorid/flash would wreck the lips off everyone. 
     In my honest opinion the best you can do is guess.  Unless you are a vitage pro with unfair inside information (looking at last poster <.<)  You don't really have any clue as tyo what anyone is playing.  Unless you are actually on speaking terms with msot of the regular vintage "top" players you normally don't have any idea what is coming at you.  I speak of my personal experience.  I went to a tournament recently and boarded for workshop/flash/ichorid  Thats all.  I didn't run hate for aggro.  If I had run into goblins I would have most likely been whupped.  If I ran into R/G beats (which was, coincidentally, at the saem tourney and I could have very well been paired against) I would have been whupped. 
    In truth no one (cept the cheaters with inside info) has any idea what to board because in reality you could be paired against your worst matchup three times in a row or completely miss your worst matchup the entire tourney.
     Imagine a gat deck with no sideboard hate vs ichorid/flash.  Now imagine that deck playing ichorid/flash every round in the swidd.  How well do yuo think they'd do?  Not too well.  Now imagine they faced shop, aggro, and combo (which they did board for).  They'd do terrific likely making it to quarter finals/finals at least.   Please give it a rest telling everyone that one certain board is better than another/ one board is required vs a certain field.   Unless you people who are purporting all this nonsense wish to PERSONALLY GIVE ADVISE TO EVERY SINGLE VINTAGE PLAYER FOR EVERY METAGAME...shut yer frickin mouths.  It will still be up to each individual to sideboard for each tournament.  It will be on each person to play his/her best at said tourney.  Even world champions loose. 
    I would be pleases if people stopped posting which deck is "top tier" or "best deck"  because it is all bogus.  People still play landstill, random aggro, homegorwn combo at every event.  Don't give me a line of what is the "optimal". 
      I have no qualms about people posting "optimized" decklists...maindecks at least.  Because every tournament will be different and no two tournaments will require the exact same sideboards. 
     In the end every tournament could be devoid of all ichorid/flash/gush deck and everyones sideboards could be completely useless.  At my most recent tourney I devoted a lot of space in my sideboard to workshop/oath/gush decks but I didn't face one of these!!  I heard that about 1/5th of the whole tourney was flash yet I did not play one flash deck...or ichorid...or gush.  I faced one workshop deck which I didn't even use my sideboard.  The one match where I sideboarded was vs bomberman and it was terrible boarding and nothing seemed to work.
   Roll the dice, gentlemen, and quit yer bitchin, please.  Top tiers mean nothing with rogue elements in the mix.  Sideboards are laid at nines with rogue elements in the mix.  Even a tourney with only "top tier" decks could mean you not meeting one "excellent matchup" or you could only meet your "worst matchup".  With sideboard space...do your best, think about the odds all you like but in the end...
   
    We all roll the dice.

[TK]

I have a couple of things to say about some of the topics brought up in this thread.

First of all at meadbert.

I just played and won with ichorid at a 40+ man event and i can deffinately say its probably one of the easiest decks ive ever jsut picked up and played. yes there are decisions that need to be made thoughout the game but most of them are only a little more than common sense.

As far as boarding with the deck goes ill admit its somewhat tricky to find a balance of what to board in and board out to not completely ruin how your deck opperates but once you find that balance you can basically just rinse and repeat and use that same board plan over and over.

As far as vintage being a love/ hate format. Ill agree i get a little frustrated with the format here and there, but im going to have to agree with steve and say this is a golden age for vintage. I could go to my next tourney with probably 5 different decks if not more that would all give me a good chance to win.

[God_Campbell]

I have been a Mana Drain player since I got off my ass and got my set and there has not been a time I ever felt the metagame has felt anything but awesome...well okay there was 4 trini times.

I have piloted many an archetype from Gat, to tog, to slaver to gift's and now back to Grow. The journey has been fun, filled with many a deck to play with and against.

I can honestly say we are in the Golden age of vintage, a time when Drain decks can appear at the top of the charts one week and be dethroned by a Workshop or Bazaar the next.

I do have a love hate for Vintage, I think everyone does. Do I like to play against decks lchy or flash? not really but they are a healthy part of the game and are needed to add that extra layer to this delicious layer cake I call Vintage.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I can honestly say we are in the Golden age of vintage, a time when Drain decks can appear at the top of the charts one week and be dethroned by a Workshop or Bazaar the next.

I do have a love hate for Vintage, I think everyone does. Do I like to play against decks lchy or flash? not really but they are a healthy part of the game and are needed to add that extra layer to this delicious layer cake I call Vintage.

I totally agree with and cheer this sentiment.  Right now is the greatest time to be in Vintage.  I think starting with SGC Indy through this moment, we've had a great run of tournaments and decks. Flash and Ichy are great additionas to the meta.  And whoever thought greeen (Goyf, Dryad, Sliver) and red (Grudge, Magus, G-shaman) would be able to participate in Vintage at their current levels?  I think that we have such terrific blue based decks (Gush Long, Gush Grow, Gush Tog) and artifact decks (MUD, Stax) and the occasional R/G aggro deck make guessing at the meta fun and challenging.  Vintage players tend like the meta when it is skills based.  Well, preparing for a large tournament now will take a lot of skill and thought.  That's tough- which makes it hard.  But that's also the rewarding part.  I'm proud to be a Vintage player right now.

Peace,

-Troy

[hauntedechos]

@ Feyd:  I don't think that you really need to be insulting, and to go so far as calling any Vintage player a cheater.  I know many people that go to tournies and since they are either a group of friends or a team outright, they scope the field and talk with each other, adjust thier boards/main and then check in for deck registry.  It's called recon, not cheating.  if Team Meandeck talk with other Vintage players (I belive you were talking about Meandeck), its thier right as they are most likely in contact with these pleople anyways.

Why is hip hop called hip hop? why is death metal called death metal?  We all live in an age of lables, and the term "Top Tie"r or "Tier1" is Magics set of labels.  This label applies to a deck based on tourny results.  Yes there are rogue decks out there, but why do you have to call it rogue?..because it is, get over it. 

This thread is SUPPOSED to be about cards that are thought to be, or not to be, format warping/annoying/loved or hated, not a space for you to sling ignorant and slanderous remarks at Vintage players based on YOUR perception of what is and is not acceptable.

I DO agree with you however in terms of the idea of sideboarding.  We do sideboard based on what our meta predictions are.  This includes a friend popping by and playing against the decks you know he plays and hope that he hasn't sleeved up a new one, thusly blindsiding you.  Does the fact that I have 5-6 cards in my board aimed at flash and inchorid bother me, no.  It's nothing more than having 4 Energy Flux to combat Shop and Stax decks.  Needle also comes in against Shop/Stax as well if they are running Welder, so there is at least some cross over for ichorid hate.

I DO agree with you that we all roll the dice in terms of making meta predictions.  I'm not lucky enough to be included in part of a team, so me and a friend of mine have to do the recon work ourselves.  It's not terribly hard, you just bring the cards with you that you feel would cover all the decks played right now, and when you have your info, adjust accordingly and register.  That's about as much as we can do to relive the dice roll effect.  Another thing that I have to contend with is, comparing what shows up at my stores meta versus what I read on this Site.  This site does NOT represent my local meta AT ALL.  Last year, I went to a tourny where a person from Ottawa was playing Codi Vinci's Drain Tendrils deck, with a few changes.  There was also 1 Stax player, 1Ichorid player, 1 Bomberman and 1 SSS Oath player.  The rest were, as you put "homegrown" decks.  "Yeah its a Tendrils based deck, I'm not even sure what all is in it really.  I borrowed this card that card and we put it together last night"  was pretty common that tournament.  The store had JUST allowed proxies, hence the influx of newcommers and the lack of the regulars who were turned off by proxies (incidentaly thoes were the decks I was meta gaming for TT).

@the rest of the thread readers:  If I were to come over to the States for a tournament (I don't think I would because of no place to sleep), I'd be pretty frustrated in the number of slots that the ichorid/Flash matchup takes.  The reason behind this is simple, I have no idea what the meta game is for where I am going, hence I'm going to want to have more flexability in what cards I bring.  If I DID have the inside info on what usually shows up (which we all do at our local stores) then  I wouldn't feel so asphixiated by the 5-6 card devotion.  In extension of the last thought, I would end up bringing 5-6 cards for Ichorid/Flash anyways because unless I think I'm ok being an ornithopter vs. a possible 1 deck at the tourny, I want thoes cards.

[feyd]

@ Steve:  Reading your articles I get the feel that you have inside information because you are in close contact with many vintage players or are friends with them.  You have not, to my knowledge, given much, if any, credit to the fact that your inside information may have helped you meta-game your deck.  If I came off as being coarse I apologize.  In all honesty it does rub me the wrong way when people are looking over my shoulder to get  a look  at my deck as I am making/shuffling it up at a tournament.  Also sneaking peaks at your deck list while you are writing it down is rather absurd.  Another facet of the tournament scene is teams.  Friends or teams that go to tournaments with the intent to get one or more of their team into the top eight/finals.  This is a legitimate strategy with an aim to make money.  A single person who is new to vintage stands a poor chance convincing an opponent to concede to him because he has a better record.  Pride matters in vintage...but is sometimes eschewed by the goal of putting a teamate into a favorable position.  I understand that there is money to loose and that teaming up and having inside information is the only legal way to stack the odds in your favor.  Good luck in all your future endeavors.

@ public:  Everyone knows vintage is a risky bussiness but at the same time it is thrilling.  I ask only this: why take the thrill out of vintage?  Playing nightmare matches puts you on edge and forces you to be a better player right now or loose miserably.  Playing against broken cards/decks is like driving at a hundred twenty miles per hour drinking a forty.  It's intoxicating.  No other format offers this lightning paced balls to the wall all-in feeling like vintage does.  Meddling with the card pool only begs that Papa wizards fix all our problems.  As adults (I speak of the majority of vintage players) it is our preregoative to design our own destiny in vintage.  We should take responsibility of the game we play.  Screaming to wizards to ban/restrict cards only shows our immaturity to accept defeat and our inadequacy to think outisde the box.  If there are any problems in vintage it is only the fault of the players, not the cards (furthermore I don't believe, personally, that there are any issues in the first place).  It is our responsibility to create solutions to our problems, not the game designers. 
    As I write this there are cards that are on the restricted list that do not belong there, and others that, with certainty, do belong there.  Petitioning that even more cards be tossed out of our card pool is preposterous.  There is no vintage deck that even close to degenerate or unstoppable.  If there were then there would be a unanimous showing, across the board, of the deck winning every tournament it appears at.  This is far from the case.  Gush is not broken, nor is the deck ichorid, or the deck flash. 
     This is a golden age of vintage.  I believe the vintage players at large have taken my perspective, to a degree, and realized a simple fact: even anything is viable.  Every dog has his day.  People have stopped being afraid to play "tier 2" decks because in all reality they have the inane ability to go toe to toe with the "tier 1" decks, and sometimes even surpass them.  I have played a sub-standard "tier 2 or 3" deck for a while now and will continue to play it because I like it and I know that it can beat the "top tier".  End rant.

[meadbert]

I just played and won with ichorid at a 40+ man event and i can deffinately say its probably one of the easiest decks ive ever jsut picked up and played. yes there are decisions that need to be made thoughout the game but most of them are only a little more than common sense.

So, there are wild rumors floating around that you played some sort of uber-broken Ichorid list that combos out on turn 1 and 2?  Is this true?  Do we get to see a list?  Without a list of what you played I cannot really comment on your experience.  I will say that the faster the Ichorid list, the easier it is to play.  Your Therapy and Bazaaring decisions are much easier, when you have no intention of ever passing the turn.

[wiley]

I'd like to see the list that won you this 40+ man event as well.  Since, if the deck aparrently pilots itself I could stand to win some power with it real quick 

I response to Feyd:

Networking skills and being a pillar of the vintage community now count as having inside information and cheating?  I missed that memo.  To think that people won't scout aound before a tournament begins is ludacris.  Would you go into a boxing match not knowing how the opponent fights?  Would you enter into a footbal league without watching the videos of other teams to find out their typical plays?  If you would then you set yourself up to fail.

Metagaming a deck, IMO, comes in two parts.  First making a solid list for the area you are attending based on recent tournament info (which, conviently, most tournaments are posted on this site and scg), and bringing extra cards that would allow for quickswitch side boards when you get to the event and find out more detailed info on what people are playing.  Doing so you minimize the risk that you just paid $20 to have some casual games.

By no means is having a team cheating.  Having a group of people to share testing experience, card pools, and general knowledge bases with is simply a smart thing to do.  Besides, it's not like you can't eavesdrop on their conversation after they do all the hard work figuring out what everybody is playing.

[Smmenen]

@ Steve:  Reading your articles I get the feel that you have inside information because you are in close contact with many vintage players or are friends with them. 

What about the fact that I just play in a decent amount of tournaments?  That's where most of my knowledge comes from, not any 'inside" info.   

You also misunderstand the purpose of having a team structure. 

The idea of a team is to have a group of dedicated people to test with and brainstorm ideas. 

[feyd]

@ wiley : I believe, if I'm not mistaken, I have already apologized for my loose tongue.  I need no further rebuke as I have come to see very clearly the truth in which you speak. 

@steve: I do not intend to refute your years of gaming experience and your plethora of knowledge concerning M:tg.  I only wanted to point out that a benefit of having these years of playing experience and shmoozing with all the vintage pros has given you a steady bead on vintage.  You, I am sure, would be the first to admit that all these years of playing and interacting with other good players has given you priceless experience/game knowledge/connections.

  Having a team is very helpful indeed.  While I have never had a team of my own I have had friends who input key ideas into my gaming mentallity.  They have offered both strategic advice and suggestions on which cards to play in lieu of others.  I do not doubt, nor ever had, the superiority of more information to less information.  I only try to illustrate that having a team and using their and others knowledge to your benefit, or the benefit of the team, gives you and your team a decisive edge over the competition.

  When I ponder over all the mixed feelings about our format and the clear distate of the many for "broken decks" I came upon a revelation.  At its core, in my opinion, M:tg is a role-playing game.  Two haggard planeswalkers square off in the nether to initiate a battle of biblical proportions.  When you realize that each "planeswalker" is actually a person who, most likely, put a lot of thought and effort into constructing a playable deck you can see where my earlier comment on pride comes into play.  Imagine yourself as one of said planeswalkers and before you even lift you hand/staff/wand to cast a spell or summon a creature the battle is already over and you have been defeated, sometimes humiliated in short order.  Having an opponent attempt to defeat you so entirely so quickly is demoralizing to some yet offensive and insulting to others.  When some players do battle they expect some form of interaction between themselves and their oppoenent.  When a player playing sliver flash rolls up and kills them on the first turn it can leave a bad taste in people's mouths.  By the same token ichorid can come off in the same way: one player soing his own thing while the opponent sits helpless awaiting his certain defeat.  While I do not in any way dissaprove of ichorid or flash I can certainly see where many people are aggravated or displeased with them.  I offer this as one possibility as to why there is unease amongst the troops.  I could just be on some rant, but I feel that this is the truth.
     Having people try to defeat you before your eyes blink is, at times, demoralizing and frustrating.  But everyone needs a sound whuppings sometimes so they can learn how to fight back.  I think everyone, and their grandmother, who has played vintage has been beaten game one by flash/ichorid at least a dozen times with no hope of victory in sight or in your hand.  I don't think that we should shun the bastard children of magic because they are different and often frustrating; rather we should embrace them as intergral components to a diverse and interesting game of skill and chance.  Chess would not be what it is if it did not have a way to checkmate in three moves, and vintage would be a sad format without the turn one kill.  The fear of loosing turn one/two is often times enough to drive fledgling players away from vintage; it is the few who have the brass and courage to toss themselves into the fires of competitive vintage and chastise themselves in these very flames who make up the community we so cherish.  We should all realize that we are not alone in our struggle for glory.  The ichorid player and the flash player have just as much right to be here as the slaver and the doomsday player.  I can only hope that the few uproarious voices of discontent are drowned out by the overpowering hymn of an endless sea of satisfied planeswalkers.  End glorious rant :>

[Vegeta2711]

I'd like to see the list that won you this 40+ man event as well.  Since, if the deck apparently pilots itself I could stand to win some power with it real quick  Rolling Eyes

Take any normal Ichorid deck and don't get paired against large quantities of board hate and you're on easy street. The deck does play itself for the most part, the post-board games are pretty much the only crucial area a lot of people fuck up on a consistent basis. But that's true for most players and sideboard, it just happens to be much more glaring with Ichorid because any slight error costs you much more %-wise in winning the game / match.

Playing Dredge in Extended takes infinitely more skill than the Vintage version. :shrug:

[LotusHead]

  Having a team is very helpful indeed.  While I have never had a team of my own I have had friends who input key ideas into my gaming mentallity.  They have offered both strategic advice and suggestions on which cards to play in lieu of others.  I do not doubt, nor ever had, the superiority of more information to less information.  I only try to illustrate that having a team and using their and others knowledge to your benefit, or the benefit of the team, gives you and your team a decisive edge over the competition.
 

Welcome to Team TMD! THis is where we discuss Tech, Lists, results, cardchoices, matchups, rules/timing issues etc.  Regular reading (and evenutally posting) on TMD gives you an edge that others do not have.  Probably the only inside info Steve has is what new deck Team MeanDeck unveils at a new tourney. (MeanDeck Oath, Ichroid, TendrilsSX all come to mind).  What Steve DOES have is more experience historically with competetive Vintage  

@The Vintage Community:
I too feel we are in a Golden Age of Vintage.  There are easily 8 different viable Shop Decks (from Stax to Aggro to Staxless Stax to MUD to MonoRed, etc), there are plenty of Scroll/Gush decks (GAT, Empty Storm/Tropical Storm, etc), plenty of Oath builds (Razia, Tyrant Oath, multiple configurations of each), several Flash Decks (Sliver, Rector, etc), plenty of Ichorid Builds (Meadbert.dec, non-Meadbert.dec), umpty Fish builds.  Then there's Naught buids. Goblins, RG Beats, 31 flavors of Bomberman.  Vintage life is good right now.

[juangamer]

ban basic island no 1 will see it coming.

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